If you hate Morts...

[lingard]

But also before Bennett join the dragons, Soward was struggling to make the Dragons top 17. In fact Brown dropped him from the side for their 2008 semi final match against the Eagles.

I think the Dragons are a prime example of what a change of coaching can do for a side. 2011 is full of mystery for the Eels

I like that. I`m looking forward to it.

 

[The Colonel]

Are you kidding? Do you really think that Hornby and Soward are the weakest members of the Saints team? You`ll really need a stack load of stats to back up that argument! :lol: You are really underestimating them.

I wouldn't call them the weakest members of the team but the attack doesn't centre around the Dragons halves. Their attack is centred around Darius Boyd much like ours was in 2009. Brett Morris and Boyd combined for 26 try assists (18 from Boyd) and much of the attack is worked towards those two players - 18 line break assists by Boyd.

Soward had 13 try assists but his main asset to the team is his long kicking game. The Dragons grind teams down and then use there backline against tiring players.

Place Soward and Hornby in the Eels side and we don't score many more points than we do now. Our defence however would improve in that we would be forcing teams to work from inside their own twenty metres more often.

 

[caylo]

Yes Mortimer and Robson have sh*t kicking games last year, but overall that wasn't the main reason for our poor season. Attitude was poor, but in several games we had enough opportunities at the oposition line to win the game. But our last tackle options were crap, it was almost like give it to Hayne. Look at the storm and dragons when they are attacking the opositions line they are very structured and each player knows eactly what to do - very rarely to score ab lib tries when attacking the opositions line. I am expecting Kearney and co to address this issue and put so very good attacking structures in place when we are in the 20 metre zone. Just this improve will help the eels go along way next year.

First you contradict yourself saying Robson and Mortz kicking game was sh*t but that isnt why we lost games, we lost them because we had poor last tackle options (which consists mainly of kicking).

Our forwards where superb generally, our backs were sufficent but our halves where without doubt our weak link last year. You are right in that they expected Hayne to do everything and they couldnt stand up when they needed to. That is why we were losing games 8-12 and 13-6 and failed to score in so many halves of footy.

I am still of the opinion that our halves are the sole reason for our demise last year, they wont able to do the job that was required of them. I think that is the play a structured game, they wouldn't have the skills for it to be successful. While Soward and Hornby have been called "average" they kicked well, got repeat sets and sparked their attack. Boyd, Creigh and Morris look so much better running of Soward then they ever had.

Also Soward was always very skilled player, he was just inconsistant and didnt have the brain to be a halfback. Bennett came in at essentially told him what to do and it was like a weight off his shoulders. ATM soward is miles ahead of any half in our squad, so no i dont think we can play the same style as Melbourne or St George

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Five tackles in a season. He is good, then.

That's actually five hits. And that only from randomly clicking through the match video.

I already told you he made 482 tackles last year.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

First you contradict yourself saying Robson and Mortz kicking game was sh*t but that isnt why we lost games, we lost them because we had poor last tackle options (which consists mainly of kicking).

I think what he's saying is our halves were used incorrectly last year.

We were f**ked for repeat sets but how do you know the team wasn't instructed to throw the ball around inside the 20? That's what it looked like to me, when what we should be doing is grinding it out inside the 20 and going for the repeat set.

Just like the Dragons we should be doing this all day even if we never score. Opposition teams will crumble at the back end of games (like they did against the Dragons).

Instead we offloaded like mad merkins (which is especially risky inside the 10 because the defence is closer) or bombed/chipped to Grothe and Inu.

The coach deserves as much blame for that as the halves, especially since coaches generally always drop players who don't follow the game plan.

The only risk is that teams will become demoralised if they spend a few sets on the opposition tryline without scoring but that again comes down to coaching - the Dragons didn't drop their head when they couldn't score early. They just kept grinding away.

I am still of the opinion that our halves are the sole reason for our demise last year, they wont able to do the job that was required of them. I think that is the play a structured game, they wouldn't have the skills for it to be successful. While Soward and Hornby have been called "average" they kicked well, got repeat sets and sparked their attack. Boyd, Creigh and Morris look so much better running of Soward then they ever had.

And now I know you didn't watch the Dragons. Creagh didn't run off Soward, he ran off Hornby.

 

[Eels Dude]

I think what he's saying is our halves were used incorrectly last year.

We were f**ked for repeat sets but how do you know the team wasn't instructed to throw the ball around inside the 20? That's what it looked like to me, when what we should be doing is grinding it out inside the 20 and going for the repeat set.

Just like the Dragons we should be doing this all day even if we never score. Opposition teams will crumble at the back end of games (like they did against the Dragons).

Instead we offloaded like mad merkins (which is especially risky inside the 10 because the defence is closer) or bombed/chipped to Grothe and Inu.

I don't think anyone is suggesting we go back to our 2009 ad lib style, that wouldn't work. But grinding out Melbourne or Dragons style wouldn't work either with the squad we have. We would need tough as nails defence, and a very strong kicking game. If we have a weak kicking game all other sides will do grind right back at us and wait for a penalty or dropped ball so they get easy metres upfield and then attack, or alternatively counter attack the same way we were so successful doing in 2009. We'd be very predictable and opposing sides would read us so easily and coaches would exploit our weaknesses even more than they did this year.

You can have a balance between structure and ad lib. Something the Tigers and Roosters did very well this year, and with a player like Hayne on board that spark is there and shouldnt be wasted.

 

[Joshuatheeel]

First you contradict yourself saying Robson and Mortz kicking game was sh*t but that isnt why we lost games, we lost them because we had poor last tackle options (which consists mainly of kicking).

Our forwards where superb generally, our backs were sufficent but our halves where without doubt our weak link last year. You are right in that they expected Hayne to do everything and they couldnt stand up when they needed to. That is why we were losing games 8-12 and 13-6 and failed to score in so many halves of footy.

I am still of the opinion that our halves are the sole reason for our demise last year, they wont able to do the job that was required of them. I think that is the play a structured game, they wouldn't have the skills for it to be successful. While Soward and Hornby have been called "average" they kicked well, got repeat sets and sparked their attack. Boyd, Creigh and Morris look so much better running of Soward then they ever had.

Also Soward was always very skilled player, he was just inconsistant and didnt have the brain to be a halfback. Bennett came in at essentially told him what to do and it was like a weight off his shoulders. ATM soward is miles ahead of any half in our squad, so no i dont think we can play the same style as Melbourne or St George

What I am saying while Robson and Mortimer are not good kickers of the ball like Soward their poor kicking on the last wasn't really the main reason we had a poor season. We made enough metres in several games to have lots of chances attacking the opositions line, but we were lost on how to attack the line. We basically had two options, give it to hayne or one of the halves would kick the winger. Surely Anderson trained the side to have some structured attack in these siutations ? or did he not?

 

[Joshuatheeel]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we go back to our 2009 ad lib style, that wouldn't work. But grinding out Melbourne or Dragons style wouldn't work either with the squad we have. We would need tough as nails defence, and a very strong kicking game. If we have a weak kicking game all other sides will do grind right back at us and wait for a penalty or dropped ball so they get easy metres upfield and then attack, or alternatively counter attack the same way we were so successful doing in 2009. We'd be very predictable and opposing sides would read us so easily and coaches would exploit our weaknesses even more than they did this year.

You can have a balance between structure and ad lib. Something the Tigers and Roosters did very well this year, and with a player like Hayne on board that spark is there and shouldnt be wasted.

And we have the potential to play like the dragons and melbourne;

Long kicking game - Hayne can do this. Keating and Mitchell also have potential to very good dummy half kickers as well
Tough defence - we were half way there this year, I think we were in the top four for defence
Making metres - We have some very good go forward this year with Mannah., Poore, Webb, Fui, Shackleton all big and strong and run straight and hard.

The trick is can Kearney get this potential to the next level ?

 

[lingard]

I wouldn't call them the weakest members of the team but the attack doesn't centre around the Dragons halves. Their attack is centred around Darius Boyd much like ours was in 2009. Brett Morris and Boyd combined for 26 try assists (18 from Boyd) and much of the attack is worked towards those two players - 18 line break assists by Boyd.

Soward had 13 try assists but his main asset to the team is his long kicking game. The Dragons grind teams down and then use there backline against tiring players.

Place Soward and Hornby in the Eels side and we don't score many more points than we do now. Our defence however would improve in that we would be forcing teams to work from inside their own twenty metres more often.

Sorry, Colonel. I respect your views - I really do - but that`s bullsh*t. You put those two players in our side last year and we would have made the top six for sure. Maybe the top four. I get what you`re saying about the structure of the Saints team at the moment, but they are both very good players. So far ahead of our halves from last year that it isn`t funny.

 

[lingard]

That's actually five hits. And that only from randomly clicking through the match video.

I already told you he made 482 tackles last year.

Depends what you mean by 'tackles'. That`s where the stats are misleading.

 

[Joshuatheeel]

Sorry, Colonel. I respect your views - I really do - but that`s bullsh*t. You put those two players in our side last year and we would have made the top six for sure. Maybe the top four. I get what you`re saying about the structure of the Saints team at the moment, but they are both very good players. So far ahead of our halves from last year that it isn`t funny.

I tend to disagree, I don't think Anderson would have given Soward and Hornby the right game plans so the side would play to there strengths

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Depends what you mean by 'tackles'. That`s where the stats are misleading.

Well I mean the 482 attempted tackles that weren't missed tackles.

 

[TheRam]

If anyone here can't see that we had the WORST halves combo in the NRL last year really needs to have their heads read and may as well give it up and go and watch something for stupid people like the AFL.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

A couple of points:

1. Yes we had the least effective halves combo last year.

2. Those halves took us to the grand final the year before.

3. We're focusing on this year and leaving last year in the past (most of us are anyway).

4. If the halves were good enough to get us to the grand final in 2009 by playing with a minimum of responsibility (just supporting offloaders around centrefield) then they might be good enough to bring us some success in 2011 if they were once again divested of so much responsibility (such as they were burdened with in 2010).

5. Dragons halves Soward and Hornby, premiers despite being neither world beaters nor rep players, have been put forward as a model of how Parramatta's halves (any two of McGuire, Mortimer, Robson, Humble or Murray) might play in a grindy, defence-oriented football team - catch, pass, catch, pass and grubber in-goal.

6. This kind of low-responsibility role could suit both our halves and the team.

7. The way fullback Jarryd Hayne is used will be pivotal in our halves' effectiveness in 2011.

8. Many posters would rather be right than happy and want the team, the coach and the board to fail in 2011 and beyond.

 

[Eels Dude]

5. Dragons halves Soward and Hornby, premiers despite being neither world beaters nor rep players, have been put forward as a model of how Parramatta's halves (any two of McGuire, Mortimer, Robson, Humble or Murray) might play in a grindy, defence-oriented football team - catch, pass, catch, pass and grubber in-goal.

Ben Hornby has played for NSW and Australia at origin and test level. You being the expert on stats should know that off the top of your head.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Ben Hornby has played for NSW and Australia at origin and test level. You being the expert on stats should know that off the top of your head.

Played halfback did he?

No he didn't. He played one game for Australia 5 years ago (four years before last year).

As for Origin, he played fullback for the Blues in game 1, 2004. Two years later he came off the bench in game 3. Two years after that he made his last ever Origin appearance off the bench in game 1.

Three Origin appearances over 5 years. None of them in the halves.

 

[Eels Dude]

Played halfback did he?

No he didn't. He played one game for Australia 5 years ago (four years before last year).

As for Origin, he played fullback for the Blues in game 1, 2004. Two years later he came off the bench in game 3. Two years after that he made his last ever Origin appearance off the bench in game 1.

Three Origin appearances over 5 years. None of them in the halves.

You said he wasn't a rep player, you didn't make a reference to where he played at rep level, he is a rep player simple as that. You like to choose your arguments. You back up the signing of Carl Webb because he's a QLD origin player, which you do continually, yet you dismiss Ben Hornby as being a representative player because he played for NSW as 'just a utilty'. Can't have it both ways Poupou.

 

[TheRam]

A couple of points:

1. Yes we had the least effective halves combo last year.

2. Those halves took us to the grand final the year before.

3. We're focusing on this year and leaving last year in the past (most of us are anyway).

4. If the halves were good enough to get us to the grand final in 2009 by playing with a minimum of responsibility (just supporting offloaders around centrefield) then they might be good enough to bring us some success in 2011 if they were once again divested of so much responsibility (such as they were burdened with in 2010).

5. Dragons halves Soward and Hornby, premiers despite being neither world beaters nor rep players, have been put forward as a model of how Parramatta's halves (any two of McGuire, Mortimer, Robson, Humble or Murray) might play in a grindy, defence-oriented football team - catch, pass, catch, pass and grubber in-goal.

6. This kind of low-responsibility role could suit both our halves and the team.

7. The way fullback Jarryd Hayne is used will be pivotal in our halves' effectiveness in 2011.

8. Many posters would rather be right than happy and want the team, the coach and the board to fail in 2011 and beyond.

Well I for one definitely want to see us do well as I would think everyone else here would feel the same. But that shouldn't stop anyone from seeing the bleeding obvious, which is that we have a very, very ordinary halves combination no matter how you try to spin it. I couldn't give a rats what they did over roughly a twelve week period two seasons ago when they were relatively unknowns and new to first grade and really weren't being spotted by the opposition while the whole team was on fire off Haynes never before seen miracle plays.

All anyone has to look back to is a whole season of absolute ineptitude from these two so called playmakers behind a great go forward pack with the worlds best ball playing forward(Feleti), that were so embarrassing our heads would collectively sink down our shirts like a turtle hiding in its shell watching their bumbling and fumbling performances in the middle of the park last season.

All we can hope for this season is that SK and Co can somehow get them to kick consistently to the seagulls and pass the ball with some speed and precision to their teammates. That alone would be a 1000% improvement and see us make the eight. But that still doesn't make them that great a halves pair. ;-)

 

[Poupou Escobar]

You said he wasn't a rep player, you didn't make a reference to where he played at rep level, he is a rep player simple as that.

No he's an ex-rep player.

Whether he played fullback once 7 years ago or came of the bench a couple of times after that means little when we're talking about his current quality as a halfback.

You like to choose your arguments.

You like to try and score points on bullsh*t tangents when you're getting caned in arguments.

You back up the signing of Carl Webb because he's a QLD origin player, which you do continually, yet you dismiss Ben Hornby as being a representative player because he played for NSW as 'just a utilty'. Can't have it both ways Poupou.

Well I can mate.

For starters I make the distinction that Webb is a former Origin player - I'll say things like "he played for Queensland" and so on. I've even given the exact games and positions he played, and the results of those games and series'.

I point out that Webb has been more or less sh*thouse since 2008 but also that he was devastating at his best. And at his age, he can still be a highly effective first grader, if not able to get back to his peak.

Ben Hornby's been a lot better than Carl Webb the past two years but they've been in very different circumstances in that time.

I think Carl Webb has loads more ability than Ben Hornby, and if the new coach can harness that he might even play Origin again next year. But we both know Ben Hornby will never play Origin again.

He knows it too, which is why he 'retired'.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Well I for one definitely want to see us do well as I would think everyone else here would feel the same.

And that's why it's so easy to be negative - either the team sucks and you were right all along or they play well and you're pleasantly surprised.

But that shouldn't stop anyone from seeing the bleeding obvious, which is that we have a very, very ordinary halves combination no matter how you try to spin it.

This is true but also not going to change between now and 2012 so there's no point going on about it.

I couldn't give a rats what they did over roughly a twelve week period two seasons ago when they were relatively unknowns and new to first grade and really weren't being spotted by the opposition while the whole team was on fire off Haynes never before seen miracle plays.

Well I could mate, and here's why - if they were good enough then, then they must have enough ability to play a role.

You're also discounting the fact that the younger players are a year older and better, and we have some more depth in the halves now. I doubt Robson and Mortimer will spend very much time together in the halves this year if any at all.

All anyone has to look back to is a whole season of absolute ineptitude from these two so called playmakers behind a great go forward pack with the worlds best ball playing forward(Feleti), that were so embarrassing our heads would collectively sink down our shirts like a turtle hiding in its shell watching their bumbling and fumbling performances in the middle of the park last season.

I think our style of play didn't suit our halves last year. Expect that to change.

All we can hope for this season is that SK and Co can somehow get them to kick consistently to the seagulls and pass the ball with some speed and precision to their teammates. That alone would be a 1000% improvement and see us make the eight.

Well this is the whole point of why the Dragons were brought up.

Instead of being thrown the ball and expected to magically 'create' like last year, our halves should be placed into a tight structure where their options are laid out for them.

This means that when they catch the ball (which is when the dummy half has been told to throw it to them) and look up at the defence they know exactly what to do with it, because it was spelled out for them at training all week.

None of this ad-lib stuff. The halves know what they have to do because all their options are prefabricated before they run out on the field.

But that still doesn't make them that great a halves pair. ;-)

I don't think anybody said they are. They're so poor in fact, that we don't even know who the halves will be for round 1.