In an 18 team comp...

[taipan]

We got a massive increase in revenue from 2012, we'll have another massive revenue increase in 2018. There will never be enough money if you don't have a plan to actually use some of the money for expansion. When we get $2.5billion in 2023 there'll still won't be enough money if you decide not to spend it growing the top level. If they'd started putting some away in 2013 then we'd have money in the bank by 2020 to invest in growth of the top tier ready to sell that ninth game.

Afl had a strategic goal and plan two decades ago to have a stronger national footprint, to be seen as Australia's footy code, to be nationally relevant. They have set aside some of their revenue growth, brought in flexible grant funding, brought in ticket tax, non football cap etc etc to pay for massive investment in expansion.

In comparison we would need to spend much less but have no plan, in five years we'll still be talking about getting a plan together, the game is shamefully myopic and stagnant since the commission took over.

Of course we got a massive increase,and players got a massive increase, money is allocated to women's Jillaroos ,money to various non direct rl projects such as Health and Mental issues,NSW and QRL,money to digital, reduction in money from last years SOO due to SOO 3 and SOO merchandise sales, money to keep
Titans/Knights/Dragons/Tigers going so they could pay players.The NRL had to dip into the piggy bank money set aside. ,rather than just rely on revenue.

Money toward infrastructure in the odd bush area ,money to fund Affiliated states.Just those off the top of my head.Even then they have not enough money to properly fund grassroots, in areas desperately in need.Money spent on integrity units and legals due to dimwit players.
I understand the NRL is either going to assist to guarantee some monies for the Nth Qld stadium.I assume NRL will provide some money toward the new Parra stadium, not sure though.

If the NRL were p*ssing it up against the wall,I'd be the first to jump on them.

I keep repeating myself over and over as basic rl fan, the NRL needs to get the sales of the Titans and Knights sorted out,That's $20m set in the Bank.Money repaid by Dragons and Tigers a few mill.

No public acknowledged plan, that doesn't mean they don't have something after current issues are sorted out .
You don't publicise everything ,to give your competitors an even break.I have no inside knowledge, that means nothing.Priority number 1 is to get all clubs financial,and boost the Sydney crowds and boost grassroots.If your grassroots withers ,you can forget expansion because you have no decent base(ala ru in Oz).

The A league,,Super dooper union and AFL had plans,they either ended up as disasters or never ending costly exercises ,which still haven't given the desired result.
The A League have spent over $200m since inception and most clubs are losing money and only the Victory and Wanderers get decent crowds.
The AFL I give you, Suns and GWS both struggling for fans, money spent like confetti.And Tv ratings that Sponge Bon would laugh at.They got extra money, but they are blowing it.$93m lost by AFL clubs in 2016.

As far as the blooper 18s,that was a disaster waiting to happen, by expansion .Bearing in mind union's presence in both Melborne and Perth combined bigger than rl ATT.

 

[Perth Red]

There will always be many mouths to feed, always some clubs in financial distress. The pie, no matter how large, will always need slicing. The newest slice is $100mill spent on digital. You either have an intent to expand or you don't, nrl doesn't which the majority on here and in the media seem to think is a bad thing. No one is talking expand now, we are talking out a plan in action to expand ready to sell that ninth game. I'd be flabbergasted if nrl has a plan that they are keeping secret lol.

And on that point I wonder why when fox blew up about losing Saturday night to nine the nrl didn't offer a ninth game at that point? They could have either asked nine to stick with same $ value and got a second fta Sunday game instead of the Saturday game, nine were obviously happy to pay $925mill originally, or said to fox they could have a super Sunday instead or have the Saturday and give a Sunday game to nine with the money fox paid to nine going to nrl instead. Either scenario covers the cost of expansion.

 

[T-Boon]

The way to get to 18 teams is to start a new competition (with no links to the NRL clubs, and slightly improved rules) which the NRL clubs end up having to beg to get in. But since we already have enough Sydney teams in that new competition you are going to need to play out of an expansion area city.

 

[davi]

The way to get to 18 teams is to start a new competition (with no links to the NRL clubs, and slightly improved rules) which the NRL clubs end up having to beg to get in. But since we already have enough Sydney teams in that new competition you are going to need to play out of an expansion area city.

Your view is to start another Superleague type war. Ummmmm I don't think so, in fact there's an argument that having two split competitions did tremendous damage to Western Reds, Adelaide Rams, and Southern Queensland Crushers in terms of killing expansion while they were in the competition.

Creating a rival competition is counter-productive to expansion plain and simple.

 

[T-Boon]

Your view is to start another Superleague type war. Ummmmm I don't think so, in fact there's an argument that having two split competitions did tremendous damage to Western Reds, Adelaide Rams, and Southern Queensland Crushers in terms of killing expansion while they were in the competition.

Creating a rival competition is counter-productive to expansion plain and simple.

Its not counter productive you just have to have the right team win and have the right motivations. It can't be driven by News Ltd. The main thing I would want to achieve with a super league type war now is 5 brand new Sydney clubs that are capable of getting good Sydney Swans type crowd support rather than the 9 dud clubs that have terrible support (they would be welcome in the new league but would need to scramble for new cities).
I also wouldn't start the new competition going head to head with the NRL clubs as fans of those NRL clubs would just identify the new clubs as the enemy when what you want is everyone having a new second team (which ultimately becomes their first team). I'd start it as a nines comp and I would use reserve grade type players.

 

[taipan]

There will always be many mouths to feed, always some clubs in financial distress. The pie, no matter how large, will always need slicing. The newest slice is $100mill spent on digital. You either have an intent to expand or you don't, nrl doesn't which the majority on here and in the media seem to think is a bad thing. No one is talking expand now, we are talking out a plan in action to expand ready to sell that ninth game. I'd be flabbergasted if nrl has a plan that they are keeping secret lol.

And on that point I wonder why when fox blew up about losing Saturday night to nine the nrl didn't offer a ninth game at that point? They could have either asked nine to stick with same $ value and got a second fta Sunday game instead of the Saturday game, nine were obviously happy to pay $925mill originally, or said to fox they could have a super Sunday instead or have the Saturday and give a Sunday game to nine with the money fox paid to nine going to nrl instead. Either scenario covers the cost of expansion.

It doesn't have" an intent now to expand" Yet understandable with anyone with a financial clue would realise .How many times is the NRL going to spend $100m on digital two ,three,twenty three.
How many times are they going to buy up NRL clubs like the Tots and Knights 20 times? LOL sometimes I feel like getting on the slops.

You completely ignore the financial wastage in other codes some resulting in comp disasters, some one sided, some still with atrocious Tv ratings.

You have no consideration for expenditure on grassroots or should I say one minute you do, the next the Pirates get preference no matter what.
Fox gets 3 Saturday games, they get simulcast of all, the get a sh*tty 6pm Friday night which stuffs ch9's leadins,we got the 24 hours channel most of us wanted.
And we got screwed financially by Murdoch,because Smith jumped the shark, and threw confetti at the fumblers, and gave us no more than he wanted.

You expand from a position of strength(financial),not when you are owed large sums, and have to scrape the treasure chest to keep things moving.

 

[davi]

Its not counter productive you just have to have the right team win and have the right motivations. It can't be driven by News Ltd. The main thing I would want to achieve with a super league type war now is 5 brand new Sydney clubs that are capable of getting good Sydney Swans type crowd support rather than the 9 dud clubs that have terrible support (they would be welcome in the new league but would need to scramble for new cities).
I also wouldn't start the new competition going head to head with the NRL clubs as fans of those NRL clubs would just identify the new clubs as the enemy when what you want is everyone having a new second team (which ultimately becomes their first team). I'd start it as a nines comp and I would use reserve grade type players.

But you did say you wanted a competition going head to head with the NRL in your orignal post suggesting a 'new competition' that 'NRL clubs are going to beg to get it in'. You also contradict yourself in this post by suggesting "The main thing I would want to achieve with a super league type war now...."

I would love to see expansion, but not at the expense of the game with a rival competition. Expansion would be great but not under rationale of 'burning down the village to save it' mentality. If that was the action that was taken that could potential jeopardize the games standing and send it back 20 years then I would choose no expansion at all.

I really think your alone in suggesting a rival competition. Most of the players, the media, the fans and the administrators all think it would do serious harm to the game.

"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."

 

[T-Boon]

B

I would love to see expansion, but not at the expense of the game with a rival competition. Expansion would be great but not under rationale of 'burning down the village to save it' mentality. If that was the action that was taken that could potential jeopardize the games standing and send it back 20 years then I would choose no expansion at all.

I really think your alone in suggesting a rival competition. Most of the players, the media, the fans and the administrators all think it would do serious harm to the game.

"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."

What we need is a way to kill deadbeat Sydney clubs without losing their 15k fans to AFL. The only way to do that is to start new teams in a new comp with more entertaining rugby league game play.

 

[Jetka100]

As someone else has mentioned, Perth 2021. Second Brisbane 2023. Give plenty of notice to build decent rosters and corporate support. Look like you have a plan. Be ambitious.

 

[Perth Red]

It doesn't have" an intent now to expand" Yet understandable with anyone with a financial clue would realise .How many times is the NRL going to spend $100m on digital two ,three,twenty three.
How many times are they going to buy up NRL clubs like the Tots and Knights 20 times? LOL sometimes I feel like getting on the slops.

You completely ignore the financial wastage in other codes some resulting in comp disasters, some one sided, some still with atrocious Tv ratings.

You have no consideration for expenditure on grassroots or should I say one minute you do, the next the Pirates get preference no matter what.
Fox gets 3 Saturday games, they get simulcast of all, the get a sh*tty 6pm Friday night which stuffs ch9's leadins,we got the 24 hours channel most of us wanted.
And we got screwed financially by Murdoch,because Smith jumped the shark, and threw confetti at the fumblers, and gave us no more than he wanted.

You expand from a position of strength(financial),not when you are owed large sums, and have to scrape the treasure chest to keep things moving.

Who knows, if you'd have said two years ago they were going to spend $100mill on digital developments and $30mill bailing out 4 clubs we'd have said WHAT? By 2020 there will be other things to spend on, there will always be other things to spend on. How about spending some on expanding the game through the massive profile that is the top tier of the sport? Can the NRL find $30mill a year out of a predicted $520mill revenue to expand? Can it recoup all if not a big chunk of it through selling a ninth game? will we be in a position to maximise TV with more capital city reach and a ninth game in 2021/22 when the next negotiations take place? Who knows but most don't hold out much hope with the current mob in charge.

 

[mistertaylor]

18 teams. An unofficial sydney division and un-official non sydney division.
9 sydney clubs play each other home and away for 16 fixtures. Would be higher crowds as sydney teams usually really struggle with getting fans from out of Sydney teams. Then they play the teams from the other divisions once, with home and away alternating every year ( for example 1 year raiders play bulldogs in canberra, the next year that game is at anz). If their are 4 qld teams then that would maximise the amount of queensland derbies. Melbourne and Perth have huge pockets of new zealanders to help boost crowds.

Flawed thinking there. That means every non Sydney team would have to travel to other non-Sydney locations every year.

Eg Cowboys flying away to Perth, Melbourne, Canberra, Brisbane (x3), Newcastle and Auckland. Throw in 4 or 5 away games in Sydney and that's a significant amount of travel - flying 12-13 times a year.

Compare that with a Sydney team eg Roosters. They would only play in Townsville, Perth, Brisbane (x3), Newcastle, Melbourne, Canberra and Auckland once every 2 years. Potentially stepping on a plane only 4 or 5 times per season.

Seed conferences based on aggregated results from the previous 2-3 seasons, with the only manipulation being through an even distribution of Sydney and non-Sydney teams in each pool (accepting that a 4:5 split is as even as you get)

 

[taipan]

Who knows, if you'd have said two years ago they were going to spend $100mill on digital developments and $30mill bailing out 4 clubs we'd have said WHAT? By 2020 there will be other things to spend on, there will always be other things to spend on. How about spending some on expanding the game through the massive profile that is the top tier of the sport? Can the NRL find $30mill a year out of a predicted $520mill revenue to expand? Can it recoup all if not a big chunk of it through selling a ninth game? will we be in a position to maximise TV with more capital city reach and a ninth game in 2021/22 when the next negotiations take place? Who knows but most don't hold out much hope with the current mob in charge.

That's the point who knows.Who knows when the 2 NRL clubs will be sold.Who knows when the Tigers and Dragons repay their loans.
Some things remain unchanged grassroots monies,2nd tier comp monies,chritable causes for players,Affiliated states.PNG,womens rl Jillaroos.
What you must remember prior TV deals screwed the code big time,meaning just enough to cover day to day costs .The AFL had deals that provided them with extra loot, we are only now starting to see extra monies flow in.And thanks to stuff ups, with the Titans and knights and the other two some of that extra money was used to keep them going.

The 2018-2022 TV deals should ensure all clubs are financially viable, provided they don't overspend on football
admin and new stadiums and some improved infrastructure provide additional club income.The 130% deal was IMO a dumb one ,with Grant opening his gob.Money that could be better utilised elsewhere.Give them 110% ,let the clubs get off their a*ses.

I don't work on predicted revenues too bleeding airey fairy..Any CEO worth his salt once all the clubs are sorted out should be able to offer the TV stations an 18 team comp, provided we have the grassroots growing not withering and the necessary number of first graders hanging around.What that 9 slot deal would be worth I have not the foggiest.
Gyngell stated initially the extra Brisbane side would be worth $20m pa to the Tv deal, then went to water on it.

Of course there will be extra things to spend in future,what you have to ensure you have the revenue to cover that and expansion.
IOW not only TV contract monies, but non broadcast income and other areas such as digital.What the digital set up brings in will be interesting.

That you don't hold out much hope is unsurprising,I tend to adopt a long term optimistic approach.
I repeat one more time what you don't do is bankrupt the code or do an ARU.

 

[Perth Red]

our revenue has gone from $185.6million to an expected $520million in just 6 years. It is staggering that we cant afford it and everything else that is important. That is a massive massive increase in money available to the game. If I was Toovey I'd be demanding an investigation! our clubs should be more than sustainable by now, the game got significant funding increase 2013-now, wheres that money gone? and our grass roots well funded. Heck can you honestly say either area is significantly better today than in 2012 when the game was running on a third the income?

 

[taipan]

Expected $520m ,is that actual.Or the usual hope for?

You'd demand an investigation ion Santa gave you an Apple I phone and you wanted a Samsung.
Until Perth is admitted you will continue along the same path, and ATM it's not the path of reality.
Is Perth guaranteed ATM not to be another knights which is actually in a heartland area?The Force is hardly a shining example of what can be achieved.

 

[DiegoNT]

Flawed thinking there. That means every non Sydney team would have to travel to other non-Sydney locations every year.

Eg Cowboys flying away to Perth, Melbourne, Canberra, Brisbane (x3), Newcastle and Auckland. Throw in 4 or 5 away games in Sydney and that's a significant amount of travel - flying 12-13 times a year.

Compare that with a Sydney team eg Roosters. They would only play in Townsville, Perth, Brisbane (x3), Newcastle, Melbourne, Canberra and Auckland once every 2 years. Potentially stepping on a plane only 4 or 5 times per season.

Seed conferences based on aggregated results from the previous 2-3 seasons, with the only manipulation being through an even distribution of Sydney and non-Sydney teams in each pool (accepting that a 4:5 split is as even as you get)

In the current draw cowboys play 12 in the road, and roosters only play 7 games out of Sydney, 2 of those are Newcastle and canberra, while another is a roosters home game taken to adelaide

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Expected $520m ,is that actual.Or the usual hope for?

You'd demand an investigation ion Santa gave you an Apple I phone and you wanted a Samsung.
Until Perth is admitted you will continue along the same path, and ATM it's not the path of reality.
Is Perth guaranteed ATM not to be another knights which is actually in a heartland area?The Force is hardly a shining example of what can be achieved.

They should bring in two Perth teams. Imagine then...the decision!!!

 

[BuffaloRules]

our revenue has gone from $185.6million to an expected $520million in just 6 years. It is staggering that we cant afford it and everything else that is important. That is a massive massive increase in money available to the game. If I was Toovey I'd be demanding an investigation! our clubs should be more than sustainable by now, the game got significant funding increase 2013-now, wheres that money gone? and our grass roots well funded. Heck can you honestly say either area is significantly better today than in 2012 when the game was running on a third the income?

The players are getting paid more money and Grant has found some more ways to increase admin costs...

Have you heard that the best players get $1 mil a year now?

Still behind your beloved AFL though, even considering the toll on the body is much tougher..

 

[Perth Red]

Id be like the bald guy in Sydney and have two memberships

 

[Perth Red]

The players are getting paid more money and Grant has found some more ways to increase admin costs...

Have you heard that the best players get $1 mil a year now?

Still behind your beloved AFL though, even considering the toll on the body is much tougher..

so players are getting more for doing the same and NRL is spending more on running the game. Awesome outcomes from $600million of extra money over the last 5 years! I'll look forward to seeing what they can spend the next windfall on that makes no difference.

 

[Perth Red]

Expected $520m ,is that actual.Or the usual hope for?

You'd demand an investigation ion Santa gave you an Apple I phone and you wanted a Samsung.
Until Perth is admitted you will continue along the same path, and ATM it's not the path of reality.
Is Perth guaranteed ATM not to be another knights which is actually in a heartland area?The Force is hardly a shining example of what can be achieved.

Well its hardly actual when we are talking about next years revenue lol. But TV deal plus at least this years non media revenue (presuming they don't actually drop in revenue!) would put it around that as an educated guess. I want to see the comp grow and have a plan for growth, if that's Perth, which is an obvious choice, or teams in NZ and PNG I couldn't care as long as the game shakes itself out of its current malaise.

And there are no guarantees, yes they could be another Force, or they could be another success like the Storm. That's why you do your work on a business case and strategic plan.

ps Force are a basket case because they are terrible on the field. They have only won something like one in the last 19 games at home! AFL recognised that having a losing team would be a disaster as did the NRL in making sure the Storm had extra funds to build a winning team. Its the reason the NRL should be investing significantly in player development now in whichever two areas they want to see the next clubs in.