Is John Howard to blame?

[SpaceMonkey]

Agreed Willow.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

It's a funny thing, but the most profound thing I ever heard on the need for education for women was a saying that is supposed to come out of the Koran. The saying goes something like 'If you educate a woman you educate a whole family'. Despite that, the Taliban in Afghanistan banned education for women on 'religious' grounds.
It just goes to prove that you can justify anything on 'religious' grounds if you interpret your religious teachings to suit your own prejudices.

 

[imported_MrAngryOne]

The Earth has but one border the atmosphere!

Religion has always been a tool to control the masses.

I do however have faith that humans will get past this.

 

[Willow]

Mr Angry... Its like looking into a mirror....
Whats your view on Anarchy?

 

[legend]

Hate to say I told you so but.............

<span>Terrorist group 'targets our north'</span>
<span>October 28, 2002</span>
<span> THE Indonesian terrorist group Jemaah Islamiah (JI) has targeted northern Australia to form part of an Asian Islamic superstate, according to a secret intelligence report.
The report, to be detailed on tonight's ABC Four Corners program, comes from the Philippines, chosen by al-Qaeda as its first base in South-East Asia in 1988. Philippines' national security adviser Roilo Golez told Four Corners intelligence indicated Australia was part of al-Qaeda's plan for an Asian Islamic state. "That is something that your intelligence people would have to assess. Suffice it to say that the Jemaah Islamiah vision of a pan-Islamic state includes parts of northern Australia," he said on ABC radio. "That's what our intelligence indicates." JI, the Indonesia-based Islamic extremist group, has been accused of perpetrating the Bali terrorist bombing. The group has established links with terror group al-Qaeda. The Federal Government yesterday listed JI as a terrorist organisation under Australia's new counter-terrorism laws. Attorney-General Daryl Williams today remained tight-lipped about the prospect of raids on those linked to JI. Mr Williams said it was a matter for investigation by the Australian Federal Police (AFP) and Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO) to determine if anyone breached the new anti-JI law. "There are people in Australia who support overseas terrorist organisations. We know there are people in Australia who have trained with al-Qaeda. We know that people associated with JI have visited Australia," he said on ABC radio. Asked if he expected any arrests, he said that was a matter for the authorities. "What we can say is that the listing of JI as a terrorist organisation under Australian law puts anybody who has any association with it on notice that potentially they are committing a serious crime," he said. A representative of the Australian Muslim community said violent political extremists should be arrested but he did not know of any. Bilal Cleland, from the Islamic Council of Victoria, said there were extremists in the community but they were extremists by talk only. "There has never been any suggestion of violence in the Australian Muslim community. We certainly are not aware of it if there has been," he said on ABC radio. Asked who could be targeted should police or security services launch a crackdown on JI in Australia, Mr Cleland replied: "I think it is quite possible that people who have got big mouths and small brains will find themselves in difficulty." "I don't think that just a loud mouth should be enough to have one arrested for terrorism."
<span>AAP</span>
</span>

 

[Willow]

What do you mean by: " Hate to say I told you so but............."
?

 

[El Duque]

See post 17.

 

[Willow]

Moffo made post #17. Do you mean legend's post #16?

I'm still waiting for a reply for my post #27 because imo, what legend said in #16 was a load of bollocks.

Regarding the above post # 45. The Australian authorities have made it very clear that these Jemaah Islamiahmob are no threat.

IMO, the bigger threat will come from reactionism as certain people look for reasons to further loathe Muslims...

After receiving a call from a Muslim protagonist on commercial talkback radio recently, the announcer said, "I want to put a bullet through his head. I don't hatehim [the Muslimprotagonist] because of his religion, I hate him because of the way he thinks! One bullet, bang! He's gone!"
Right-i-o.

To say that the al-Qaeda and the Jemaah Islamiahhave targeted Australia as part of Muslim 'super state' is laughable. Perhaps they'll organise it all through 'Radio Islam' - 2MCR (91.2FM).

 

[legend]

Why is it Bollocks? Because you say so. I'm afraid I will need more convincing than that. You guys are comparing apples with oranges here. You compare the crusdaes to modern day events which in itself is totally ridiculous considering they are only 1000 years apart. I can't think of one situation where the Christians are perpetrating acts of violence in the name of their faith.

In this day and age, can someone tell me where the Christians are in any way fundamentalist and are seeking to create their own "super state" somewhere in the world? Sure we Catholics have Vatican City, but that is hardly the same thing. The Muslims have Mecca as their holy land, if they want their own state, go and live near their holy land.

You also talk of reactionism. With all the events in the last three months alone involving Muslims you can hardly blame a lot of people for being reactionary can you?

Willow, not everyone shares your views on living in an anarchistic society near the broadwater where things in theory should be nice and rosy.

I also suggest you watch Four Corners which starts in about ten minutes for a bit of up to date information. This is the year 2002 you know and while some on here like to think the crusades are still very much alive.

I know a couple of good places in Auburn where you can get some cheap rugs so you don't hurt your knees. A bloke of your age would find it tough after all these years having to get down and pray five times a day. You know in Islam, there is no left or Anarchy........

 

[Willow]

Read my post #27 and answer it

 

[Willow]

and btw,
I really dont think bringing up a persons place of residence is appropiate.
All things considered, I find that insulting.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Muslims have been having their headwear ripped off in Sydney over the last couple of weeks. This is a disgrace, i dont care who you are, it shows a total lack of respect. I have to agree though, sometimes your place of residence does change your view on things. I mean, if my picture of where Legend lives is anything like what i see at Auburn station everyday, i know how he could form the opinion that he has.

Thats not to say that people who live outside the area are ignorant of the issue. Its just a case of the environment affecting your views and opinions.

Moffo

 

[legend]

On the contrary, I find it very much at the heart of the issue. It all reminds me of Nero and how he fiddled when Rome was burning. You are quick to condem the actions of people who are "reactionary" and snipe at me because I state facts about the Muslim propoganda on radio yet when I dish it, it's not ok?

Willow, how many Muslims do you think live in Sydney? There are over 50,000 people and I can assure you they all would be listening to that radio station. By your coat hanger remark I take it you think they are quite the impoverished minority? Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't deny a man a right to make a living and wealth regardless of religious persuasion, good luck to him/her but you really are being naive.

I already answered the following questions in my last post I thought.

The Koran incites believers to acts of violence against non believers." As for the Koran... its a matter of interpretation... just like the Bible. Plenty of people have gone on some murderous Crusade because they read it in the Bible.

Again, the crusades happened over 1000 years ago and modern day Christians are not, I repeat not using acts of terror to gain an audience. Yes they did 1000 years ago but not at this point in time.

"Our very way of life is under threat and the U.S should take whatever steps they deem neccessary to eradicate the world of the extremists."
As for eradicating the world of extremists... that would be grand... how do we decide this? It can be successfully argued that America is the home of extremism.. Afterall, more Americans have died at the hands of another American than has ever happened in any war of the last 100 years.

Successfully argue it then? They are a society that enjoys more liberties than we do as far as gun control and things like that go and yes they are in social strife but I find it hard to believe the number of people killed in the last century would come anywhere near the number of people killed in WWI and WWII. Let's see some figures to prove your theory here.

"Many innocents will die in defene of their faith, but many innocents have already died for no reason at all."
So do we include Christian extremists as well? I mean, that's what your saying... I'd like some concrete evidence showing where Christian Extremists are acommitting the same acts of terror as certain sections of the Muslim community?"Many innocents will die in defene of their faith..." Sorry mate, but that sounds as bad as any fundmentalist who's willing to die (and kill) for his faith..

Again, I think it goes without saying that the acts in the past 18 monthsalone would far outweigh the acts of religious extremismfrom other religions in general wouln't you think?

I don't want any stupid button-pushing Christian in charge of ny welfare any more than I want some stupid Muslim doing the same. It starts to get messy when we pigeon hole extremism into religious groups. If you need proof of this, just look at the current mess around us.

Well, there is a good chance that a Christian does have his finger on the button and isin charge of your welfare yet you enjoy all the freedoms that come from living in a Christian country.So far they have shown remarkable restraint and tolerance IMO but it seems that until your very way of life is under threat you continue to ony see one side of the argument.

If we could find a way of putting all the religious extremists (from all sides) on the one leaky boat and sending them to into the Marianas Trench then I'm all for it. But the boat would have to take the lot.. no predujuce there.

Again, tell me about these other sides? I don't see the Bhuddists, Hindus, Catholics andJews stoning women to death, holding 1000 people hostage in Moscow, flying planes into skyscrapers and crashing jets into government buildings, blowing up nightclubs, strapping explosives to their bodies and blowing up busloads of innocent civilians as a matter of faith, do you? If you do, please let me know. I'll be just as condeming as I am now.

 

[Willow]

With respect Moffo, a persons age or place of residence should have no bearing on the debate.
I don't have to defend where I live nor should I have to read tripe about the condition of my knees. (I mean, that really is ridiculous). Neither of these 'liabilities' should devalue my point of view.

The fact that I have lived extensively in Sydney and for a while in London, New York, Berlin, Manila and Bologna should also have no bearing on the conversation.
It just so happens that I've been on the Gold Coast for a few years andI like it here.

Offcourse, none of this is relevant to the discussion but it does make this attack (not for the first time) on my place of residence look absurd. Fair dinkum, is that the best counter argument available?

 

[legend]

As for the Coptics, here's a snippet of news on how they are treated in a Muslim country.

A letter smuggled out of Cairo's Mazraa Tora Prison last month confirmed that an Egyptian convert to Christianity who disappeared five months ago has been imprisoned on criminal charges.
In a handwritten letter obtained by Compass last week, Hisham Samir Abdel Latif Ibrahim, 26, confirmed that he had been arrested in early May by Egyptian security police. According to the letter written on September 17 to a Coptic Christian cleric, Ibrahim has been accused of falsifying his identity papers and reviling Islam.
Ibrahim said that after his arrest, he had been questioned for a total of 52 days in the Gaber Ibn Hayan and El Gehaz Madinet Nasser branches of the State Security Investigation (SSI) in Cairo.
"I was told that a man called Adel had informed them about me," Ibrahim wrote. He stated he had been interrogated daily by SSI officers, who named a person they claimed had issued new Christian identity papers for him.
Born in Alexandria into a Muslim family, Ibrahim is believed to have obtained Christian I.D. papers on the basis of a newly issued birth certificate identifying him as Milad Mahrous Habib Agayby. Egyptian Muslims are forbidden by law to change their religious identity, although open incentives are offered to encourage Christian citizens to convert to Islam.
According to acquaintances in Cairo, Ibrahim became a Christian in 1996 through listening to the Christian radio program "Yanabi El Sahara" (Fountains in the Desert).
In his letter, Ibra him said he had appeared three times before a state prosecutor while under arrest. The legal charges against him were filed under Case No. 1092, initially opened in 2001, he said.
Ibrahim also reported that he had met or heard about two other former Muslims also under arrest for converting to Christianity, both from Port Said.
Ibrahim said Mohammed Hegazy, a Christian convert from Port Said, was being detained in the Mazraa Tora prison with him. The Port Said man was accused of insulting an officer of Egypt's security police, Ibrahim said, and was scheduled to appear September 18 before a state prosecutor to answer the charges.
Earlier this year, Hegazy published "Sherine's Laugh," a thin volume of 31 poems he had written in colloquial Arabic. In one of the poems entitled "Ashraf Pasha," Hegazy recalled the severe mistreatment he had suffered at the hands of Ashraf Ma'alouf, an SSI officer who reportedly arrested, interrogated and tortured him for converting to Christianity.
Ibrahim also said he had been told by the prosecutor before whom he appeared that a woman convert from Port Said, identified only as Sara, had been arrested. "But I don't know if she is still detained or not," he wrote.

***************************************
COPTIC FAMILY UNDER RELATED ATTACK
***************************************

Before his disappearance on May 7, Ibrahim had been living with Shafik Labeb Ishaq and his wife Violet, a Christian couple active in an evangelical Coptic church in Cairo. Since March, the couple and their three daughters have been subjected to repeated harassment by both security police and local Muslim extremists.
An accountant for an Egyptian communications company, Ishaq confirmed that several times during March security police officers summoned him and his wife for interrogation, sometimes late at night or even at dawn. The police also came knocking at their door at odd hours of the night, always claiming to be searching for unknown individuals.
At the same time, the family received warning notes and dozens of obscene telephone calls, threatening to kidnap and rape their youngest daughter Sarah, 14. Repeated attempts were made by young Muslim men to convince Sarah she should run away, leave her faith and become a Muslim.
Then on April 8, fanatic Muslims in the neighborhood managed to kidnap Sarah for four days. Although her parents located her and forced the captors to return their daughter, a similar attempt was made on July 28. Again on August 16, a veiled Muslim woman tried to force her way into the home where Sarah was staying.
To protect Sarah from being forcibly converted to Islam, Ishaq and his wife obtained travel documents and sent her on August 27 to England, where she remains in an undisclosed location until the rest of her family can leave Egypt to join her.
"Sarah was exposed to danger," the Ishaq family's pastor confirmed in a written statement from Cairo, "and even the lives of her family are also in danger."

source: http://www.copts.net
Coming soon to a country near you..............

 

[legend]

The best argument are facts and the truth. Both of which you asked forand I provided. Still think it's all bollocks? Can't have your cake and it too you know.I am yet to see any facts produced in support of your outlandish comment that Americans have killed more Americans than a combination of all the wars in the last 100 years.

 

[legend]

Here's some more facts:

A protest organiser in Pakistan has been arrested for leading demonstrations demanding government action after the massacre of seven Christians at a Karachi charity Baseer Naveed was taken into custody on Thursday and held overnight at a police station in the southern city of Karachi where the killings took place two days earlier. Police say he was detained for activities which threatened peace and order. Meanwhile, Christian groups are holding a second of three days of mourning for the victims of the attack. Police have so far arrested no-one in connection with the killings, but suspect militants angry at the US-led war on terror are to blame. "This is strange. The killers are at large but those protesting are being detained," Mr Naveed, a Muslim, told The Associated Press news agency from his cell. Execution Two gunmen entered the third-floor offices of the Institute for Peace and Justice (IPJ) and shot their victims in the head, before escaping. Police said the victims had their hands tied and their mouths had been covered with tape. Officials are investigating possible links between the killings and a string of attacks on Christian and Western targets that have taken place in the country in recent months. Police are also looking at a possible link with the mysterious murder of the charity's former chairman four months ago. He was found dead in his office after being injected with poison. Black flags Pakistani Christian groups say they are not reassured by government pledges to protect them following Wednesday's attack, and are being increasingly victimised because of US policy. Black flags are flying over churches and Christian areas in Karachi for a second consecutive day as protests continue at the latest killings. Shops, schools and churches in Christian-dominated districts are also closed. Non-Muslim organisations say recent attacks show that hardline Islamists are trying to force Christians to leave the country. Karachi was the scene of an attack on the US consulate in June and a suicide bombing against French naval engineers in May. Are Christian Australians forcing Muslims to leave Australia and persecuting the Muslims like the Muslims are persecuting the Christians in other parts of the world? We all know the answer is NO.

 

[Willow]

Legend: Thanks for the Nero analogy but it works both way. The business of revenge brought down Rome as well.

"By your coat hanger remark I take it you think they are quite the impoverished minority?"
No, I was referring to the transmitter. It was a joke at how small it must be when compared to the very many commercial stations which often make money out of riling people up.
I don't think the Muslim community are an impoverished minority. Thats putting words into my mouth.

"Again, the crusades happened over 1000 years ago and modern day Christians are not, I repeat not using acts of terror to gain an audience. Yes they did 1000 years ago but not at this point in time."
George W Bush has referred to the war against terrorism as a Crusade.

"I find it hard to believe the number of people killed in the last century would come anywhere near the number of people killed in WWI and WWII. Let's see some figures to prove your theory here."
OK, I'll do that. It'll take a little while. I'm referring to violent deaths in America.
I'll do you a deal... how about showing me your figures on Christians being denied the vote in Egypt?

"Again, I think it goes without saying that the acts in the past 18 monthsalone would far outweigh the acts of religious extremismfrom other religions in general wouln't you think?"
No... we are very concerned about the WTC catastrophe and the bombing in Bali. But people are dying in their millions else where. I don't know why you thinkwestern society isdevoid of blamefor this.

"Again, tell me about these other sides? I don't see the Bhuddists, Hindus, Catholics andJews stoning women to death, "
You really think the Jews are on the side of right in Palenstine? The Catholics have their extremists as well... do you think the mad extremism of of the last 50 years has simply evaporated?
Are you saying that only Muslims are extremists?

 

[Willow]

You seem to be attempting to shout me down with long posts of copy and pastes...
anywhy, you're all fired up... the 4 corners show is on now (one later than Syd) so I can only assume that this was the source of your angst.

 

[Willow]

Another thing... when did the word 'bollocks' become so offensive?