Ivan Cleary - Smart NRL coach ?

[Iafeta]

Now please dont take this as a huge knock at Ivan. He's done bloody well to get this far. Im just seriously worried he may lack the necessary vision to win an NRL title.

Lets compare him to 2 other coaches Murray of NQ and Hagan of Paramatta. I think to compare Ivan to these two is fair as both have arrived at equal stages of the season and both have gone on further for obvivous reasons.

Murrary in Particular through forced injury and Hagan through a bit of vision took punts on their youth to come through and ignite their NRL hopes. Cleary on the other has only blooded one player from memory - a 27 year old Lock/Small seconder rower who they eventually decided didnt fit their picture for the future.

Parramatta's system is like the likes of Canberra etc. You can't help but blood good youngsters most years. As most Parramatta fans will tell you, the likes of Feleti Mateo have been there for a while.

From what I saw of the Lions, (very little admittedly), they had a little way to go collectively.

Now I watched a few lions games this year and particular watched a lot of youngsters go from premier league on to NRL for other clubs. In particular I enjoyed watching Paramatta and seeing Krisan Inu and Feleto Matelo in action. Now I had heard a lot of previous hype about these kids and was impressed with their on field ability.

Now Everybody is going to say our juniors arnt ready yet !!! as is always said :roll:

Mateo and Inu and those players were a massive class above other Premier League players. They were scoring doubles, hat tricks, breaking tackles at will like it was going out of fashion.

That Day I watched Sonny Fai play like a beast and treat Inu (Now a bonafide NRL superstar at paramatta) like his own private personal rag doll. Fai was nothing but intimadating, you could see his influence and knocking back the Paramatta spirit. time and time again braking the line, off loading and bringing a whole lot of pain in the tackle.

I've personally got question marks over Fai's defence close to the line from what I saw. He may have rag dolled Inu, but against the Raiders his goal line D was paper thing.

Mateo was completely shut down by the like of Scott Jones , Wade McDade etc. All season Malo Solomona has been flying away over the park, Lesson Ah Mau has been bending back the line, Louie Anderson has probably been playing the best football of his life in the later part of the year. Lui Toiamona has raised eyes time and time again.

What's Malo's workrate like? Again, in the only game I saw, he did little to get involved when the ball didn't come his way. Louis shines down there because it's not as competitive a league as first grade.

I simply believe either the Warriors had Salary restraints or Ivan lacks vision for winning. How can Fai not Debut this year ??? How can he out gun, dominate time and time again and especially over a player like Inu and still not get noticed. Dam even Cooper Vuna has got a ton better at the knights. For a guy with attitude problems he's been their shinning light ! And Anderson has played the best league of his career in the lions !!!

Can't be due to salary cap restraints, you have an allotment in your 'second tier' and the Warriors did not use that.

BYRNE, MARTIN, SWANN, KOOPU ????????

Byrne and Martin mostly played reserve grade, and from all accounts, Byrne was basically the most consistent down there. Swann I'll give you, Koopu though was playing good footy at the end of the year.

This should of been the finals line up against the cowboys(not includding the injuries we suffered at the end) - This would of had a much better chance instead of the peice of wall with drying paint on it they sent to play as Warriors today.

1) W. Mckinnon
2) M. Crockett
3) S. Fai
4) S. Mannering
5) C. Vuna
6) M. Witt
7) G. Rovelli/ L.Hohaia
8) E. Tuimavave
9) G. Gatis
10) S. Price
11) L. Anderson
12) R. Wiki
13) M. Luck

14) N. Fein
15) E. Lauaki
16) W. McDade/ L.Toiamona
17) S. Rapira

Cooper didn't want to be at the club. Let it be. Wairangi did nothing wrong, you also take away a lot of variety... where's your cover if an outside back goes down? Koopu is the man for that. Heck, you've got a back rower out in the centres that's how little you'd paid attention to that.

Ivan decided that Swann and Koopu, Martin, Byrne etc were the players to go forward. Very Bad Call

He wanted experience in a team that badly lacked finals experience.

For a team that finished fourth, I think it's unbelievable that after a loss he's copping a flogging from you. I personally find with you (no disrespect intended) that you would rather a team with a low mean age than a successful team. Each to their own.

 

[ozbash]

what money ?

oh yea,,, why did we get tate anyway ? I still reckon #7 is our biggest problem, If my name was W. Scurrah esq, i would be throwing a fairly lucrative coaching/developement contract together and sending it up north to the Jones boy...

 

[Iafeta]

Agreed ozbash. Get Jones involved to help Rovelli, Wright, Hohaia... just on learning to kick properly. I mean, Rovelli ... goes flat to the left side, can't kick because he's pressured down the short side, throws a pass... intercept, try... next set, does the same thing, but luckily gets an offload away which the Cowboys smash the next player anyway. I was very angry with that, because he tried the same play last week and kicked out on the full. It's such a low percentage play for such little pay off.

To me he tries to get involved too much, rather than sitting back, guiding the team to an opposition weakness and being the key in the lock to execute the money play or the set closing play.

What surprises me is watching rah-rah, the ABs have a tremendous supply of tactical kickers... but in all of New Zealand we can't find one for league to plug the corners?? I'm afraid Grant Rovelli is not the answer, and it's been said before - we can't win a premiership with him at 7.

 

[Martli]

what money ?

oh yea,,, why did we get tate anyway ? I still reckon #7 is our biggest problem, If my name was W. Scurrah esq, i would be throwing a fairly lucrative coaching/developement contract together and sending it up north to the Jones boy...

Yep, don't think you'll get many arguments against that.

 

[Iafeta]

I think they made a blunder also resigning Ruben for another year so early in the piece. Imagine if his money was freed up, there would have been cash for a player like Michael Monaghan... hell, heaven forbid, even Brett Kimmorley. At least you know with him while he may do some daft things he knows how to close out a set.

 

[NIGHTMARE-HITTER]

Parramatta's system is like the likes of Canberra etc. You can't help but blood good youngsters most years. As most Parramatta fans will tell you, the likes of Feleti Mateo have been there for a while.

From what I saw of the Lions, (very little admittedly), they had a little way to go collectively.

Mate collectively they might of had a long way to go. individualy there were some ready.Especially when you bring Martin back for a finals game for which he adds nothing. His form in Premier league was shocking.

Mateo and Inu and those players were a massive class above other Premier League players. They were scoring doubles, hat tricks, breaking tackles at will like it was going out of fashion.

Not against the lions they didnt. From memory we beat them twice this season ? And up untill the end of Paramattas run, I thought Mateo was the most overhyped dud Id viewed. Everytime id seen him play in Premier grade he did nothing. He goes up to NRl and he's a machine. A bit like when the Warriors had Fui Fui Moi Moi actually. So they let him go to paramatta

I've personally got question marks over Fai's defence close to the line from what I saw. He may have rag dolled Inu, but against the Raiders his goal line D was paper thing.

That may have been a 1 game thing because after Scott Jones and Constantine Mika I rate Sonny Fai the Best Defender in the Lions Squad.

What's Malo's workrate like? Again, in the only game I saw, he did little to get involved when the ball didn't come his way. Louis shines down there because it's not as competitive a league as first grade.

Malo isnt as busy as a NRL winger should be ... I agree. However he is a carbon copy of a young Nigel Vagana. has an uncanny ability to score trys. Read the stats they will tell you.

Louis Anderson Shined because he Peaked in the Lions. But if he was given the chance in Warriors we would of got simular performances. There's no concievable way that Wairangi Koopu, Wiki, Swann etc were playing good enough football to warrant their selections over Anderson. Anderson played the best football of his carreer for the lions. And if he got reselected to play for the Warriors again - there would of been an outcry to keep his signature. The only reason for his non selection must of been attitude based.

Can't be due to salary cap restraints, you have an allotment in your 'second tier' and the Warriors did not use that.

Byrne and Martin mostly played reserve grade, and from all accounts, Byrne was basically the most consistent down there. Swann I'll give you, Koopu though was playing good footy at the end of the year

Byrne was defintly one of the most "Consistant" in Premier grade. Unfortuantly Consistant doesnt mean great. Do you want to win or consistantly perorm ok. there's two differences.

Cooper didn't want to be at the club. Let it be. Wairangi did nothing wrong, you also take away a lot of variety... where's your cover if an outside back goes down? Koopu is the man for that. Heck, you've got a back rower out in the centres that's how little you'd paid attention to that.

I think you should do your homework Iafeta. Sonny Fai has a history of also playing centre. He's certainly quick enough to cover the postion. And physicaly id doubt there's many in NRL who would handle him well one on one. He bascialy stays in the centre postion for the Lions on the left flank.

Also do you know what position Simon Mannering played before the Warriors put him in at centre ?

Do you know what position Sonny Bill Williams played before playing centre at the bulldogs ?

Cooper had so much to offer - Maybe John Hart should of shouldered him more. I hear he does a few of the team speeches now because Cleary doesnt like motivational talking.

Sorry havent rated Wairangi for a few years now - He runs to sideways, Lacks sustained power....... Would of prefered Corey Lawrie over him.

He wanted experience in a team that badly lacked finals experience.

Yeah I understand, if there wasnt experience we might lose by 40 odd points .... Oh hang on .....

For a team that finished fourth, I think it's unbelievable that after a loss he's copping a flogging from you. I personally find with you (no disrespect intended) that you would rather a team with a low mean age than a successful team. Each to their own.

Mate read my opening lines of my original post again - to get a bigger picture.

40 point loss in the finals with a team many cringed at when it was named. I think its sad how people dont question reality in this world.

I have my opinon and my opinion is he could of done better. Im not knocking Cleary for making the top 4. He's done bloody well - but in respect there is obvivous flaws. Especially with no new tactics introduced in the finals run.

 

[Iafeta]

Mate, honestly the way you wax lyrical over Fai it's like he's 150 kilos of muscle who can do the 100 in 4 seconds.

Secondly, I take umbrage with your praise of Louis Anderson. Good in patches, gave away some shocking (and it cost us games) penalties. You were always fearful of what might happen with that bloke in terms of second last tackle, they run at Louis, is he going to head high, grapple, work the player on the ground... what penalty is next for Louis was the biggest question of his season.

Corey Lawrie over Wai Koopu? You're kidding. Really, you are. Sorry, I haven't laughed like that in years. Thank you. I appreciate it. You can't be talking about the same bloke who scored a couple of rippers against the second best team in the comp no less. Deadset, that's one of the funniest things I've ever read on these forums. This is like watching Raw or Delerious over again, but when it was funny.

As for Fuifui, he turned it around. It was looking like 150-1 that that would happen at Souths. "I play ten minutes I train ten minutes". Just what all clubs need. Brian Smith did a good job with him.

 

[Waitakere Warrior Fan]

I wouldn't have minded seeing Fai get at least one game this year to see how he went in the top grade, but like others have said I don't really think there was much scope for experimentation over much of the season.

I think some people can also forget just how damaging it can be for a young player if they get elevated before they're ready. Mateo was mentioned before, but he debuted back in 2004 and ended up having a few problems that saw him head off to London in 2005 and even consider giving up the game. A lot of people seem to suggest that Fai has some problems that need to be ironed out and maybe that's something that would be better done before he enters first grade, for both him and the Warriors.

I don't understand how you can rate Koopu behind Anderson either, let alone Lawrie. I think players like Koopu and Swann (who remains one of my favourite all time players even if he isn't quite the player he used to be) were a vastly underrated component of our grand final run. Not everyone can be a flashy ball player, but having two players like them working hard in defense and playing 70 minutes freed up some of our flashier players.

 

[mean]

I wouldn't have minded seeing Fai get at least one game this year to see how he went in the top grade, but like others have said I don't really think there was much scope for experimentation over much of the season.

Like Lowie suggested most coaches should implement some Bax magic every now and then. Stuff playing safe football for 20 odd games. Throw in a debutant every now and then, do a hide the ball up the jumper move, take a drop kich shot every time you hit the half way, I don't really know, but please can someone come up with moves that score tries like they did for the first one yesterday.

 

[NIGHTMARE-HITTER]

Mate, honestly the way you wax lyrical over Fai it's like he's 150 kilos of muscle who can do the 100 in 4 seconds.

Nope he's a teenage kid who bench press's 160 kg the most in the entire NRL at the beginning of this season. He has something like 15 + trys this premier season in a team that really struggled at times. His presence was a factor in the majority of the Lions wins.
He swats players off like flys, offloads, sets up trys left , right and center, hurts plenty in the tackle, brings aggression to the team, has oppostion coachs ranting and raving about him. Yep he has got the X-Factor and dam right I want to see him get a Run....... HE DESERVES IT ahead of some nuffies already there !!!!!

In this situation its what your seen is what you know - I just dont know how much you have seen of this kid in actionn ? . Was it Jon Ackland who said Sonny Fai is the best prospect to come out of Auckland in 20 years ?

PLEASE ANYBODY - name a Warriors reserve grader who has done more to deserve selection before him ??????????????

And Would Wairangi koopu get a start or postition at any other NRL club ?

 

[Iafeta]

Nope he's a teenage kid who bench press's 160 kg the most in the entire NRL at the beginning of this season. He has something like 15 + trys this premier season in a team that really struggled at times. His presence was a factor in the majority of the Lions wins.
He swats players off like flys, offloads, sets up trys left , right and center, hurts plenty in the tackle, brings aggression to the team, has oppostion coachs ranting and raving about him. Yep he has got the X-Factor and dam right I want to see him get a Run....... HE DESERVES IT ahead of some nuffies already there !!!!!

In this situation its what your seen is what you know - I just dont know how much you have seen of this kid in actionn ? . Was it Jon Ackland who said Sonny Fai is the best prospect to come out of Auckland in 20 years ?

PLEASE ANYBODY - name a Warriors reserve grader who has done more to deserve selection before him ??????????????

And Would Wairangi koopu get a start or postition at any other NRL club ?

A certain S Jones for one would be more deserving. You have your opinion mate, but it's far from unanamous from those who have seen him consistently in action. Many question the lads defence, it was paper thin the time I saw him. Embarrassingly so to be perfectly honest. There's some people who view him as the next coming of Allah, there are others who seriously question his overall first grade make up. Now, as far as John Ackland's comment goes, isn't it interesting that even when he is assistant coach Sonny isn't selected. I can assure you, Ivan Cleary is not the only person involved in the selection making process and Mr Ackland would have significant input into the team he has to prepare each week. Surely, that has to make you think that there may be a few things that you're not picking up, right?

I'm not concerned whether Koopu gets a start at any other club, you had Anderson ahead of him which I dispute entirely. Anderson made some busts and big tackles in premier league, but before that in first grade he cost the team at several vital stages with what can only be recapped as 'brain explosion' penalties. You only have to remember the angst on him at the time from several forum members across several forums, and inevitably it even got to Ivan Cleary. A man who is rather phlegmatic, and a man who tends to keep the faith moreso than most coaches (although, while you have criticised him for this, D Anderson and T Kemp were no better at blooding players). For the record, Koopu has the best line drive out of the Warriors back rowers, the only other one who may poke their nose through is Lauaki but that's down to strength.

Fai may make it, next year is his year if it is to be at the Warriors. It's all up to him, if he trains the house down and goes well in his annual one or two preseason games for the Warriors then he will get there. If not, so be it.

 

[NIGHTMARE-HITTER]

I hope your not suggesting Scott Jones is more deserving ??? While he is a tackling machine - best technique in fact , and has a huge heart and work ethic - he still is far to light of frame and nowhere enough influences the game like Sonny Fai does. Definetly the most quietest season Ive seen from Scotty.

I dont know mate, I enjoy and always have enjoyed your view points on rugby league - lets put it this way if you and me were NRL coaches we would have two different coaching styles. I will admit I am more aggresive minded when it comes to tactics and plans. I still believe for the talent available from this country the Warriors are under achieving.

For all the plaudits - the Warriors still could of done better this season. And thats not bashing cleary, its just my personal belief. I think its something psychological with kiwis and Aussies involved in Kiwi structure.

P.S. I think if Ackland had full control, the line up would of been different.

 

[Skinner]

I hope your not suggesting Scott Jones is more deserving ??? While he is a tackling machine - best technique in fact , and has a huge heart and work ethic - he still is far to light of frame and nowhere enough influences the game like Sonny Fai does. Definetly the most quietest season Ive seen from Scotty.

I dont know mate, I enjoy and always have enjoyed your view points on rugby league - lets put it this way if you and me were NRL coaches we would have two different coaching styles. I will admit I am more aggresive minded when it comes to tactics and plans. I still believe for the talent available from this country the Warriors are under achieving.

For all the plaudits - the Warriors still could of done better this season. And thats not bashing cleary, its just my personal belief. I think its something psychological with kiwis and Aussies involved in Kiwi structure.

P.S. I think if Ackland had full control, the line up would of been different.

Cinderella.....you WILL go to the Ball.

He will get a run next year, I'm sure, but he will need to prove his worth very quickly
to maintain a spot.

The top two inches will come into play very early as he could be found out.

 

[mean]

P.S. I think if Ackland had full control, the line up would of been different.

If he had control we would have name change to New Zealand Lions playing in a blue and yellow jersey.:sarcasm:

 

[Skinner]

If he had control we would have name change to New Zealand Lions playing in a blue and yellow jersey.:sarcasm:

I love your "passion" for Mt Albert mean :lol: :lol:

 

[NIGHTMARE-HITTER]

Cinderella.....you WILL go to the Ball.

He will get a run next year, I'm sure, but he will need to prove his worth very quickly
to maintain a spot.

The top two inches will come into play very early as he could be found out.

Ive got my dress ready !!!!

He's got pride and passion something that league was once built on. Brains they are there too - he's a teenager still for petes sake !!

 

[Skinner]

Ive got my dress ready !!!!

He's got pride and passion something that league was once built on. Brains they are there too - he's a teenager still for petes sake !!

Time will prove one of us right......but which one ????? :lol:

 

[AliN]

Time will prove one of us right......but which one ????? :lol:

lol, I'll go with NH

 

[Fast Eddie]

Sonny Fai might not turn out to be the next star Kiwi Second Rower but I have no doubt that he has the goods to become a very good FGer.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I agree with N-H about Louis Anderson

He's been a starter for NZ and the Warriors for the last few years and I'm 100% sure that Cleary left him out this year because he had decided to leave

Seriously, Louis gave away literally 2 or 3 penalties that people remember, but that hardly justifies a week in week out starter suddenly becoming a reserve grader behind the likes of Logan Swann or even Lauaki