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Ivans' new book

Big Marn

Bench
Messages
2,957
  • In a new book, Ivan Cleary opens up on his unhappy exit from the New Zealand Warriors, saying club management “didn’t want me”.
  • Speaks of depression battle, including struggling to get out of bed while coaching the Warriors.
  • Recalls the tragic death of rising star Sonny Fai and the impact it had on his Warriors teammates.
Ivan Cleary says he left the Warriors head coach role because club management “didn’t want me”.
The modern-era league super coach – who both played for and coached the Warriors – has opened up in his new book about the highs and lows of his career, Not Everything Counts, But Everything Matters.
That includes the highs such as four premiership successes with Penrith and coaching his son and one of the world’s best players, Nathan, and lows such as battling depression, Sonny Fai’s tragic death and his messy exit from the Warriors.
And in a revelation that would make long-suffering Warriors fans shudder, mentor and former All Blacks coach John Hart – who was the Warriors’ executive director of football – says if things were handled better, both Ivan and Nathan Cleary could be at the Warriors.

And in his new book – released in Australia on Wednesday – it was a job he wanted to keep, asking Warriors management in mid-2011 for a contract extension after he was approached about a potential shift to coach the Penrith Panthers.

“The club replied that they wanted to wait before they extended me, which only confirmed my suspicions,” Cleary reveals in the memoir.
“It was my sixth season in charge, and although we’d made the finals consistently, the management – not including John Hart – didn’t think I had what it took to take the club to its maiden title.

“I hadn’t wanted to leave the Warriors, but they didn’t want me. They wanted someone to take them to the next level. It was a business decision, which was their prerogative.”
Cleary said he had feared after the 2009 season – where the club was rocked by tragedy and finished 14th – that he was “on borrowed time as head coach of the New Zealand Warriors”.

He felt then club owner Eric Watson and the board wanted a Kiwi coaching the side, with Brian McClennnan the favoured choice.
McClennan did ultimately replace Cleary.
But it was a decision that started a coaching merry-go-round at the club, with McClennan quitting within a season of his two-year deal.

“John tried his best to convince the Warriors to keep me,” Cleary wrote, “but when he realised that he too wasn’t being supported any longer, he was instrumental in orchestrating an early exit for me so I could join the Panthers for season 2012.”

Hart also writes about Cleary’s exit from the Warriors at the end of the 2011 season in the book’s foreword.
He said the pair had a “close bond” and that he “held him the highest regard”.
“I thought he could be the Warriors coach for decades to come. He could still be there now,” Hart wrote in the book.
“But he’d asked for a contract extension earlier that year after Penrith came calling, hoping to lure him back. When management wasn’t prepared to give it to him straight away, preferring to wait until the end of the season, the relationship broke down.

“I often wonder how those leading the Warriors look back at 2011. Had they made the right decision and kept Ivan Cleary, he might well still be the club’s head coach today. And who knows? They might have Nathan, his son, as well.”

Navigating a tragedy that would rock a club, forever putting things into perspective for me’​

On January 4, 2009, rising Warriors player Sonny Fai sprinted into the surf at Bethells Beach, west of Auckland.
Fai – who Cleary described as “a lovely kid with so much potential ... a superstar in the making” - had rushed into the water to save his younger brother and four cousins who had been caught in a rip.
Tragically, he was not to return and 14 years on his body has never been found.

In the book, Cleary writes about his feelings in the aftermath of Fai’s death, the impact it had on his teammates, and what it was like “navigating a tragedy that would rock a club, forever putting things into perspective for me”.
Fai – who was aged just 20 – went missing the day before the Warriors were to return to pre-season training after the side’s Christmas break.


It was Cleary who had the job of revealing the heartbreaking news to the playing group.
“I can still see Simon Mannering’s face,” he wrote.
“His expression went from happy as Larry to absolute shock and sadness in an instant. It was horrendous.
“Instead of training, we got on a bus and drove 40 minutes to the beach and the whole team walked along the shoreline, looking for Sonny. Devastatingly, his body would never be found.”
Cleary wrote how the death “shattered the Warriors community”.
Younger members of the squad were among Fai’s best friends.
“As the pre-season went on, the tougher it was for our players.”

Putting his playing number and an embroidered version of his signature on playing jerseys were among ways the club tried to honour Fai in 2009.
The side went on to finish 14th in the 16-team competition.
“It’s very hard to coach around those times because football means nothing,” Cleary confided.

“I think some of the players felt guilty because they were playing footy and Sonny wasn’t there with them.”
Cleary added it was an experience that also showed him “how vulnerable a team can be when its members are reeling”.

Cleary opens up on his battle with depression – struggled to get out of bed at the Warriors​

From the outside, Cleary has exuded a calmness about him throughout his head coaching career; including his early days as Warriors coach.
But in the book, Cleary revealed the battles he has faced with depression and at times self-doubt.

He said he first “encountered depression” in 2009 during his fourth season coaching the Warriors.

“I couldn’t get out of bed, at times, and I’d cry for no reason,” he wrote.
“That would only ever happen around Bec [Cleary’s wife], who was perfect as always in helping me through it. As I say, at the time I didn’t know it was depression. I just knew I was feeling pretty s****. It was an unexplained vulnerability.”

The year had been a tough one at the club; first, there was Fai’s tragic death, then poor results saw them finish well down the points ladder.

Cleary said he also made some “bad decisions” around recruitment which he regretted, including releasing some players early from their contracts.
“Nothing erodes trust and connection within the playing group more than cutting guys out of the blue.”
Cleary said he was also facing “mounting” pressure from Watson.
“After things went pear-shaped, I could feel the club had begun the search for the next coach.”

Cleary first mentions his battle with depression in the prologue of his book.
That centres around May 2019 – the first season of his second stint coaching at Penrith – when he felt “the world is closing in on me”.

“I am looking at the box of antidepressants in my hand, wondering if I should take them or not.
“’S***’, I say to myself, ‘I can’t take much more’.
“It’s May 2019. I’ve seen my doctor and explained how the world is closing in on me. It has become too much. I feel overwhelmed and I need help.
“Coaches aren’t supposed to be vulnerable. They’re supposed to carry the load of the entire club.
“I know people look at me and think I’m calm, even laid-back. But what you see on the outside doesn’t reflect what’s happening on the inside.”

The stresses included a succession of losses on his return to Penrith, unhappiness with sections of the culture of the club he had returned to and claims of nepotism around how he treated Nathan.

He also contemplated quitting Penrith, a club he has gone on to coach to victories in the past four NRL grand finals.
“In the end, I don’t quit and I don’t take the antidepressants,” he wrote.
“For a coach, the best medication is success. We beat Parramatta in round 11, then win our next six games, eventually finishing the season one win outside the top eight.”

 

Big Marn

Bench
Messages
2,957
PART 2 - 10k character limit per post.

Ending his playing days at the Warriors – lack of pain about grand final loss​

Cleary’s final game as a player in the NRL also doubled with the first time the Warriors made the NRL final.

Despite high expectations from fans after they had claimed the minor premiership, they were well-beaten 30-8 in the final by the Sydney Roosters.
Cleary was to taste further NRL final defeat with the club in 2011 as head coach.
And he revealed in his book that defeat as a player in 2002 didn’t hurt as much as it should have.
“Losing the grand final hurt, but it didn’t hurt like it did when I was coach. I’m not sure why,” he said.
“I was actually happy for the Roosters players and staff – many were friends of mine from when I was at the club between 1996 and 1999.

“When I reflect on that grand final, though, it doesn’t given me a good feeling. It’s not like I didn’t try. I prepared well and desperately wanted to be part of the Warriors’ maiden premiership, but it just didn’t mean enough to me – and it should have.

“I wasn’t prepared to risk enough to win. If I was fair dinkum about winning, that grand final loss should have hurt more than it did, because it was my first and only grand final in 11 seasons of first grade.”

In a chapter titled Owning Your Mistakes, Cleary also writes about the pros and cons of coaches playing “mind games” with their players.

That included recalling how at the end of the 2001 season, then Warriors coach Daniel Anderson told him during a year-ending review: “You’ll struggle to make it next year”.
“This might have been true or he might have been needling me,” Cleary wrote.
“Whatever the case, it pissed me off – to the point that it became fuel for me. It drove me to make my final season one of the best of my career ... mind games can work.”

Unlocking the Warriors and getting the best of Pasifika players​

Sydney-born Cleary writes how he first “came to understand the importance of different cultures” when he joined the Warriors in 2000.

He said it was a far different environment to those he had experienced playing at Manly, North Sydney and the Roosters.

“In those environments, you had to be thick-skinned or you didn’t survive,” he wrote.

“If you played poorly, you were crucified, and the general banter among the players could be quite brutal.”

Talk within the Warriors camp was “much more sensitive” he wrote.

What he experienced as a player in such a multicultural set-up – which he said was a “true melting pot of cultures” - helped him when he became Warriors head coach for the 2006 NRL.

“As a coach, learned to be sensitive to the cultural backgrounds of Pasifika players,” he wrote in the book published by HarperCollins.

“That’s not to say they can’t thrive being spoken to in a tough, old-school way. But they’re going to be better players if you make the effort to understand how they see the world and interact with one another.”

Cleary also said how “the general belief” in Australia when he took charge of the Warriors was that the side was “skilful but lazy – that they lacked heart”.
He wrote how one of his priorities was to stop people saying the players only dug in for 60 minutes of the match.
“It was a damaging stereotype of Pasifika players, and wrong in so many ways. Clumping all Pasifika players together into one group and setting expectations for them on the basis of shallow stereotypes was unfair, and a huge source of frustration for us.

“But many in the rugby league world did that that way back then. It was silly and ignorant.”

Cleary highlighted also two players who helped create a strong culture and work ethic during his coaching stint; former captain Simon Mannering and Australian import Micheal Luck.

He wrote that Luck “wasn’t big or fast, and he wasn’t overly skilful, but he kept going in all situations regardless of external factors. He was tough as hell, and very coachable”.

“He and Simon Mannering were the pillars of the Warriors sides I coached back then,” he wrote in Not Everything Counts, But Everything Matters.
“They led the club away from its reputation as flashy and soft, setting in place a culture in which consistency, hardness and durability were valued.”


 
Messages
17,759
Tragedy on many fronts.
I wonder if he would of lasted long enough here to get Nathan on the field and if they would have been thinking about SOO before he turned 15 or what ever the rule they have at the moment.
 
Last edited:

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,439
Don't feel bad Wahs fans. We at the Raiders could've had Craig Bellamy and Cameron Smith lol.
What's that story?

We will feel bad because we could've had Craig Bellamy in 2013...as apparently could the Broncos. Geez some people in management are too thick and egotistical for their own good. The f**kwit who told Bellamy at Brisbane he wouldn't have the same level of control and ownership of the club that Wayne had...what a dumbarse. As well as Wayne Scurrah - king of the dunces - who wouldn't wait a year for Bellamy, so appointed Matt Elliott instead.
 

Blair

Coach
Messages
11,194
What's that story?

We will feel bad because we could've had Craig Bellamy in 2013...as apparently could the Broncos. Geez some people in management are too thick and egotistical for their own good. The f**kwit who told Bellamy at Brisbane he wouldn't have the same level of control and ownership of the club that Wayne had...what a dumbarse. As well as Wayne Scurrah - king of the dunces - who wouldn't wait a year for Bellamy, so appointed Matt Elliott instead.
Scurrah probably felt threatened by Bellamy's professionalism so never really wanted him. The one year wait thing was probably a nice out.
 

soc123_au

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
19,816
What's that story?

We will feel bad because we could've had Craig Bellamy in 2013...as apparently could the Broncos. Geez some people in management are too thick and egotistical for their own good. The f**kwit who told Bellamy at Brisbane he wouldn't have the same level of control and ownership of the club that Wayne had...what a dumbarse. As well as Wayne Scurrah - king of the dunces - who wouldn't wait a year for Bellamy, so appointed Matt Elliott instead.
So Matt Elliott has twice gotten the nod over Bellamy? If you went with that as movie script it would never get made for being too far fetched. f**k me NRL clubs are dumb.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,439
So Matt Elliott has twice gotten the nod over Bellamy? If you went with that as movie script it would never get made for being too far fetched. f**k me NRL clubs are dumb.
Twice? Where was the other time?

You wouldn't think it's hard, would you...hey Wayne Scurrah, you have a guy who has won grand finals (not premierships, at that stage....*******) and he will come in 2014, but honour-wise wants to see out his contract. You have no one else in line, and even if you did, they're not Craig Bellamy. No, don't tell him the offer doesn't stand!!! NO DON'T APPOINT MATTHEW ELLIOT, THE GUY WHO HELD HIS TIE UP IN A PRESS CONFERENCE!!! ARGGHHHHH

Oh and Wayne, you're the guy that appointed Bluey McClennan and told Ivan Cleary he wasn't required?

Wayne Scurrah should write on his f**king Linkedin page that he's the CEO who threw away/denied coaches with 9 (?) grand final wins at a club that has never won one in 30 seasons of trying.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,439
Scurrah probably felt threatened by Bellamy's professionalism so never really wanted him. The one year wait thing was probably a nice out.
Our f**kwit owners said they wanted us to be the pre-eminent sporting outfit in the southern hemisphere, then exactly one year later (actually it might have been the same year) refused to wait for the best coach in the game.

You can't make that shit up.
 

soc123_au

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
19,816
Twice? Where was the other time?

You wouldn't think it's hard, would you...hey Wayne Scurrah, you have a guy who has won grand finals (not premierships, at that stage....*******) and he will come in 2014, but honour-wise wants to see out his contract. You have no one else in line, and even if you did, they're not Craig Bellamy. No, don't tell him the offer doesn't stand!!! NO DON'T APPOINT MATTHEW ELLIOT, THE GUY WHO HELD HIS TIE UP IN A PRESS CONFERENCE!!! ARGGHHHHH

Oh and Wayne, you're the guy that appointed Bluey McClennan and told Ivan Cleary he wasn't required?

Wayne Scurrah should write on his f**king Linkedin page that he's the CEO who threw away/denied coaches with 9 (?) grand final wins at a club that has never won one in 30 seasons of trying.
Raiders knocked Bellamy back in favour of Elliott. To be fair no one knew how bad Elliott was at that stage. But still...
 
Messages
12,696
What's that story?

We will feel bad because we could've had Craig Bellamy in 2013...as apparently could the Broncos. Geez some people in management are too thick and egotistical for their own good. The f**kwit who told Bellamy at Brisbane he wouldn't have the same level of control and ownership of the club that Wayne had...what a dumbarse. As well as Wayne Scurrah - king of the dunces - who wouldn't wait a year for Bellamy, so appointed Matt Elliott instead.

The Raiders interviewed Bellamy for the head coach role in 2001. The board pretty much told him he had the job, they just had to interview one more candidate as a formality. On the way back to the airport he gets the call saying sorry, we're going with Matt Elliott. Apparently Elliott had pulled out the PowerPoint presentation and blew them away with the bells and whistles. I guess PowerPoint was state of the art in league circles at the time.

At the end of 2002, Cam Smith toured the Raiders facilities as he was stuck behind kiwi hooker Richard Swain at the time. He was seriously considering heading to Canberra, when Swain suddenly left in the off season and headed to Hull FC. He ended up staying and both he and Bellamy started 2003 in prominent roles at the Storm. The rest is history I guess. Both of them have spoken about this in recent years. Bellamy on face to face this year and Smith on Matt Johns' Podcast last year.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,189
Devil's advocate (for a position that has basically been proven to be wrong, I know): even in those excerpts Ivan's comments are a little bit odd and contradictory.

In 2001 and 2002 he played in perhaps the best Warriors era ever, one which was renowned for local players and "razzle dazzle" play. Yet, while he comments that it's unfair to negatively stereotype Pasifika players, by his own admission when he took over in 2006 he wanted to change the perception of the club and leading the way in that were....errrr....Michael Luck and Simon Mannering. In one breath he says Pasifika players shouldn't be negatively stereotyped, but in the next he wants a couple of hard working white boys to lead a culture change away from the style of play he was involved in and which took us to a grand final? His comments suggest that even after playing in a team that made a grand final, he still internalised negative connotations about stereotypically "Pasifika" players.

His comments above tie in perfectly with the criticisms of his coaching stint: You have a guy who played in an awesome era of razzle dazzle Warriors footy, but who seemed oblivious to that and wanted to craft the team in basically his own image - the scrappy white fulla. It's obvious why people didn't like this when (a) the Anderson era was so recent and so fondly remembered and (b) Cleary coached us through the NYC era where we had the best young local talent in the comp.

I'm not commenting on why he has ultimately had so much success with Penrith, or whether "White Fulla Ball" is just destined to succeed in the NRL. I'm just saying (and repeating myself yes) that if you put the narrative in its actual context it's a lot easier to understand what happened.
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,378
PowerMatt Elliott and PowerPoint is an irresistible combination

James Sawyer Reaction GIF
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,439
Devil's advocate (for a position that has basically been proven to be wrong, I know): even in those excerpts Ivan's comments are a little bit odd and contradictory.

In 2001 and 2002 he played in perhaps the best Warriors era ever, one which was renowned for local players and "razzle dazzle" play. Yet, while he comments that it's unfair to negatively stereotype Pasifika players, by his own admission when he took over in 2006 he wanted to change the perception of the club and leading the way in that were....errrr....Michael Luck and Simon Mannering. In one breath he says Pasifika players shouldn't be negatively stereotyped, but in the next he wants a couple of hard working white boys to lead a culture change away from the style of play he was involved in and which took us to a grand final? His comments suggest that even after playing in a team that made a grand final, he still internalised negative connotations about stereotypically "Pasifika" players.

His comments above tie in perfectly with the criticisms of his coaching stint: You have a guy who played in an awesome era of razzle dazzle Warriors footy, but who seemed oblivious to that and wanted to craft the team in basically his own image - the scrappy white fulla. It's obvious why people didn't like this when (a) the Anderson era was so recent and so fondly remembered and (b) Cleary coached us through the NYC era where we had the best young local talent in the comp.

I'm not commenting on why he has ultimately had so much success with Penrith, or whether "White Fulla Ball" is just destined to succeed in the NRL. I'm just saying (and repeating myself yes) that if you put the narrative in its actual context it's a lot easier to understand what happened.
Yeah, I absolutely see what you're saying.

I think it boils down to the fact that 'white fulla ball' if that's what we're calling it, is more replicable and dependable than 2002-03 Warrior Ball is. 2002-03 Ball requires generational, mercurial, freakish talent. We had that in spades with Toopi, Ali L, Faumuina etc. It's seat of the pants stuff, you have to have the ticker for it. But not many, if any sides have it now. Brisbane had a fair bit last year and should have won the comp. We don't have anyone like it, really, or not that has been brought through to play consistent NRL.

I don't think Ivan ever had the gumption to coach Warrior ball, it's not in his nature as you say. But he's now crafted a game plan that can be replicated anywhere, to my view. As long as you have strong leaders as Penrith have in spades, you can coach the sort of talent that exists in most clubs to succeed (OK, and it won't hurt to have 2-3 rep players in your spine). White fulla ball is so consistent, it's frustrating/hard to play against, and unless there's an attacking revolution coming, it'll pass the test of time.
 

Big Marn

Bench
Messages
2,957
It's seat of the pants stuff, you have to have the ticker for it. But not many, if any sides have it now. Brisbane had a fair bit last year and should have won the comp.
Maybe the Dolphins a little bit? with the Hammer leading the way. Also the Titans with all their speed showed how much damage can be done on a good day (Yikes Warriors). But its an inconsistent strategy at the best of times.

Its abit like NBA teams trying to win a title by taking a boatload of 3pt attempts per game. Its spectacular when they are going in but hard to sustain over the whole season. I guess the Houston Rockets came closest when D'Antoni was in charge but they fell at the penultimate hurdle.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
9,439
Maybe the Dolphins a little bit? with the Hammer leading the way. Also the Titans with all their speed showed how much damage can be done on a good day (Yikes Warriors). But its an inconsistent strategy at the best of times.

Its abit like NBA teams trying to win a title by taking a boatload of 3pt attempts per game. Its spectacular when they are going in but hard to sustain over the whole season. I guess the Houston Rockets came closest when D'Antoni was in charge but they fell at the penultimate hurdle.
Yeah the Titans is a good shout. And you're right, it is inconsistent at best. It's such a hard one to hang your hat on - knowing you're going to be a lightning rod for inconsistency/poor performance when it goes wrong. So many coaches try to replicate the Penrith/Melbourne way for that exact reason.

I don't watch much EPL but I think it would be the same there? https://www.worldfootball.net/stats/eng-premier-league/1/ - this, by my very untrained eye, seems to bear that out. You can be an incredibly good attacking team - which by all accounts Man City are - but they might be an outlier in terms of good defensive structures being the thing that wins games. *Please note I know nothing about the Premier League past around 2006-07 and this could be a horrible opinion*
 

Blair

Coach
Messages
11,194
What caught my attention was the comments about 'mistakes' coaching the Warriors. Particularly the players he 'let go too early'. I'd like to know their names.
 

Matua

First Grade
Messages
5,049
We're going a bit overboard with the Warriorsball stuff. That team had a lot of workers and non flair players that were doing work to allow the Warriorsball stuff.

And it's not like Cleary's Penrith team doesn't have Warriorball style players.
 
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