James Gavet

[JJ]

Thanks, appreciate it - not much between them.

Lillyman remains valuable then, and strong. With Matulino leaving and not much seeming to be available they could do worse than re-sign him for a year

 

[RHYTHM AND STEALTH]

Probably, yeah. I want to see Gavet sustain it for a longer period before I fully buy into him, but he's been very, very good this year. Most of the annoying crap has been left out of his game, his defence looks totally transformed and he's running harder than ever.

But Packer shouldn't be in the Kiwis team at all. Personal stuff aside (which is a significant issue, I feel - dude went to jail for a year), I don't think he's the best NZ prop at his own club, and far from the top few available to the national side right now. Would much rather see Gavet in than Packer.

His 4 penalties a game have dissapeared

 

[TheDMC]

Lillyman's workrate has been slightly higher (not by much) on both attack and defense (not surprising that the balance is so similar either - they've played most of their minutes together). Gavet's metres per run is a little higher, but the main difference comes when looking at tries/linebreaks/assists, tackle breaks/offloads and errors/penalties. Gavet has significantly more of each (the errors/penalties thing is to be expected - often correlates with the other two groups, as long as it stays within an acceptable range it's fine).

There's a rundown of the middles we've used this year.

Essentially what makes Gavet look good is the combination of >40 minutes per game, the per minute workrate (mtr80, tk80), the decent mtr/r and good tackle break/offload numbers - ie. similar workrate to Lillyman, but more impact.

Not sure whether stats on 'post-contact meters' are available anywhere, but that is one area Gavet will have it all over Lillyman, and as indicated by tackle breaks to a degree. Obviously, lot of value in his post-contact meters, even when no offload or tackle bust. In contrast, Lillyman makes contact and is stopped dead in his tracks (but seems to never go backwards, which is also very valuable!).

 

[PhantomChief]

Stats are stats but IMO Bull and Jimmy compliment one another.

Gavet's strength is his ability to put on a bit of footwork but continue to keep his pace going into contact. He often fights tooth and nail at contact to find his front and in doing so also tries to catch defenders either on the ground or interfering with what's happening in the ruck. What's not taken into account is his quick play the balls and when there's only one marker it gives Luke space to snipe. Luke, SJ and Foran have been the recipient of his quick PTBs and that's not what these stats are telling us. Gavet's try was in between two Kangaroos but the way he accelerated into contact and turned his body I doubt Lillyman would or even could do. So along with his mongrel he's intelligent enough to know that there aren't too many NRL props around that he can't win the ruck against - the Raiders and Roosters are testament to that.

His defense against the roosters was scary, especially in the second half when he returned. You can't teach mongrel and this guy's got it in spades. Combining with Sau and Lisone have seen him spark up their defense and get the opposition looking twice.

I think people forget that his stint before he got injured when he was with the Tigers saw him at his brutal best with the likes of Taupau, Seumanufagai and Seu terrorizing the Cowboys, Seaeagles, Doggies and Rabbits. He's kind of getting back to that form but he's on his own in doing so and that's a worry. He NEEDS someone else who can really put the fear into the opposition. Not often you see Napa and JWH bullied! The question is how long can Gavet sustain this level of punch on his own.

 

[jaseg]

Stats are stats but IMO Bull and Jimmy compliment one another.

Gavet's strength is his ability to put on a bit of footwork but continue to keep his pace going into contact. He often fights tooth and nail at contact to find his front and in doing so also tries to catch defenders either on the ground or interfering with what's happening in the ruck. What's not taken into account is his quick play the balls and when there's only one marker it gives Luke space to snipe. Luke, SJ and Foran have been the recipient of his quick PTBs and that's not what these stats are telling us. Gavet's try was in between two Kangaroos but the way he accelerated into contact and turned his body I doubt Lillyman would or even could do. So along with his mongrel he's intelligent enough to know that there aren't too many NRL props around that he can't win the ruck against - the Raiders and Roosters are testament to that.

His defense against the roosters was scary, especially in the second half when he returned. You can't teach mongrel and this guy's got it in spades. Combining with Sau and Lisone have seen him spark up their defense and get the opposition looking twice.

I think people forget that his stint before he got injured when he was with the Tigers saw him at his brutal best with the likes of Taupau, Seumanufagai and Seu terrorizing the Cowboys, Seaeagles, Doggies and Rabbits. He's kind of getting back to that form but he's on his own in doing so and that's a worry. He NEEDS someone else who can really put the fear into the opposition. Not often you see Napa and JWH bullied! The question is how long can Gavet sustain this level of punch on his own.

Fully agree about them complimenting one another. I've always been a big fan of having one high workrate low error guy paired with one high impact guy in your starting rotation at NRL level (ie. when you have a salary cap). Gavet is creating impact on both sides of the ball, while Bull plugs away and gets his share of the workload done with few mistakes.

I disagree that he was at his best of anything at the Tigers though... he was mental there - and (mostly) not in a good way. Missed tackles, dropped balls and stupid penalties were the order of every appearance. He's come a long, long way forward since then.

Play the ball speed is recorded (and averaged), but the difference isn't huge.. variance is though (it's a factor I feel gets totally overlooked in sports analysis in general), meaning Gavet has most of the quickest and slowest play the balls of the two - likely still something in Gavet's favour, as the slowest PTBs are often created by defences targeting a danger on the ground for longer.

 

[PhantomChief]

I disagree that he was at his best of anything at the Tigers though... he was mental there - and (mostly) not in a good way. Missed tackles, dropped balls and stupid penalties were the order of every appearance. He's come a long, long way forward since then.

Beg to differ my friend. I can pinpoint easily the games he played well in, which were most of them, and penalties often not justified although there was one against Souths that was random. He was definitely NOT "mental" as you say - incredibly aggressive but so too were the other bench players. His game versus Manly that year he did some things that were far from mental, like scooping on uncontested balls and tackle breaks hardly the traits of someone being "mental". When he played the Cowboys he was probably at his best - running it straight to Tamou aggressively, hammering Simms much like what he is doing now. The occasional dropped ball - what NRL player doesn't do that? Countless times commentators raved about his aggression and his "ripping and tearing" and how other teams were finding it hard to combat him, Taupau and Su'e particularly - I would call that mongrel NOT "mental". SK was very interested in him then and then he pulled a hammy against Parra which ultimately kept him out of the 1st grade side and then later returned to a Tigers that didn't fire and things went downhill then just prior to trading to the Bronx.

Play the ball speed is recorded (and averaged), but the difference isn't huge.. variance is though (it's a factor I feel gets totally overlooked in sports analysis in general), meaning Gavet has most of the quickest and slowest play the balls of the two - likely still something in Gavet's favour, as the slowest PTBs are often created by defences targeting a danger on the ground for longer.

Yes we've seen that even the slowest PTBs he has left players stranded on the ground - so the stats don't reveal that there's a marker down. Note for example his very slow PTB against Roosters just prior to Luke scooping it before losing possession. Gavet was holding Friend from getting back on side - if Luke was onto it he could've played to the left of the ruck and run into Friend who would've been in an offside position - the point being, the PTB was slow but Gavet's guile meant there was a definite scoring opportunity that went missing. Other props just don't do that!

 

[jaseg]

Beg to differ my friend. I can pinpoint easily the games he played well in, which were most of them, and penalties often not justified although there was one against Souths that was random. He was definitely NOT "mental" as you say - incredibly aggressive but so too were the other bench players. His game versus Manly that year he did some things that were far from mental, like scooping on uncontested balls and tackle breaks hardly the traits of someone being "mental". When he played the Cowboys he was probably at his best - running it straight to Tamou aggressively, hammering Simms much like what he is doing now. The occasional dropped ball - what NRL player doesn't do that? Countless times commentators raved about his aggression and his "ripping and tearing" and how other teams were finding it hard to combat him, Taupau and Su'e particularly - I would call that mongrel NOT "mental". SK was very interested in him then and then he pulled a hammy against Parra which ultimately kept him out of the 1st grade side and then later returned to a Tigers that didn't fire and things went downhill then just prior to trading to the Bronx.

You know there are two sides to the play, right?

In those two games, he made 30 successful tackles. He missed 12. Also had an ineffective in there too. That's a prop with an effective tackle rate of less than 70% (!!!!!). I don't like wingers that can't get to 70%. Middle forwards? He should be hitting high 80s at a minimum. And those are the two games you picked out as his best?

Every player drops the occasional ball or gives away a penalty here or there, sure... but Gavet was giving away 2.62 per 80 minutes on the field... too many for what he was producing elsewhere, given his tendency to miss tackles.

 

[PhantomChief]

You know there are two sides to the play, right?

In those two games, he made 30 successful tackles. He missed 12. Also had an ineffective in there too. That's a prop with an effective tackle rate of less than 70% (!!!!!). I don't like wingers that can't get to 70%. Middle forwards? He should be hitting high 80s at a minimum. And those are the two games you picked out as his best?

Every player drops the occasional ball or gives away a penalty here or there, sure... but Gavet was giving away 2.62 per 80 minutes on the field... too many for what he was producing elsewhere, given his tendency to miss tackles.

Nice opening comment!

Um, I was AT most of those games, including game 2 versus the Titans in sweltering heat after getting smashed by St George the previous week, and if you watch those two games I refer to how could you argue against his effectiveness? My opening comment about "stats" telling so much does not tell the full story despite what your stats say.

Have a look at those two games themselves (not the stats) and other games he played in. Sorry but neither I nor the fans at those two games at Leichardt, or the Doggies at ANZ Stadium would agree to your comments or question his effectiveness if you through those stats up when he was offering so much in aggression coming off the bench for Woods or Galloway - he had a standing ovation in many of his home games - he was on the verge of becoming a cult figure prior to his injury.

Oh, and none of his fans, many of whom I still know now, did NOT regard him as being "mental". But maybe you could ask him yourself if you live in Auckland. He's always at the Kelston Boys 1st X11V games - pretty approachable chap, articulate and works with youth charities etc.

 

[jaseg]

Umm... are you actually serious?

If you are a middle forward, and you fail to complete more than a quarter of your attempted tackles, you aren't playing good football. Simple as that. You can try to argue intangibles all you want (amusingly, many of the things you have pointed to as intangibles are very much recorded as part of statistical analysis)... but he simply wasn't playing at NRL standard in 2014. At best he was doing half the job - because he was terrible in defence. Not bad. Terrible.

I have a good mate who is a Tigers fan (went to every match in Sydney the guy played for the Tigs)... used to refer to him as "s**t Taupau".

pretty approachable chap, articulate and works with youth charities etc.

What on earth does that have to do with anything? When I said he was mental, I clearly was talking within the context of his performances in the game in 2014. Because he was making well above the norm for mistakes. Not anything to do with the guy as a person. I've heard nothing but good things about him outside of footy - but that isn't a part of this conversation.

 

[PhantomChief]

No idea why I'm even having this debate with you - so I will agree to disagree with everything you've said about his time at the Tigers.

I have many Tigers friends by the way not just the one and every one of them rued the day he was traded. I still get messages now from them telling me how well he's doing and how they regretted he'd been let go. He and Marty actually helped one another rise to where they were at the Tigers. They were mates from the time at the Doggies together and then reunited at the Tiges and they both took it upon themselves to bring their "Samoan mongrel" to the team, and along with Jesse Su'e and Ava formed a formidable quartet - not sure where the derogatory comment comparing him to Taupau came from for you one "friend" - REALLY!!! I also visited and continue to visit the club on many occasions and spoke with staff and other players at the club a Concorde when I was there to speak about connecting development players from Kebra Park and other schools and talking with agents and all were highly complimentary of Gavet. I met with his propping partners (Gall, Woodsy, Ava, Nathan Brown when he was there, and even young Lodge before he went off the rails), Bodine Thompson when he was there, Mick Potter, Kidwell when he was there, their main physio and main trainer and every single one of them said how valuable Jimmy was to the club. Oh and spoke with Sirro and Blocker who had HUGE RAPS on Jimmy saying he (and Marty) could be anything they want - along with his younger brother who was also there at the time with their U20s. Nothing about how ineffective he was as a "middle" and I'd tend to be convinced more by what they say than most other people and certainly not a word said by any of the Tigers staff about his stats! go figure.

The point about him being an approachable chap is simple. You say that he was "mental", and if you'd done any research on Jimmy you'd know about his mental health issues from being isolated in Sydney and Brisbane after 3 season ending injuries. Wrong choice of word mate especially as he's come right being at home in NZ with the right support around him but it hasn't been easy! If you've heard "nothing but good" then you may have missed the commentary about his battles with depression and suicide! Mental he ain't!

 

[jaseg]

Jesus H Christ... That is absolute rubbish. Learn what context is then come back to me. Rubbish like that is (one of the reasons) why people like Trump get people supporting them for "anti-PC" reasons and feel free to say whatever comes to mind.

I obviously wasn't talking about actual mental health issues, but doing stupid stuff on the field. No, I won't mind using the word. Because words take on different meaning according to context. Duh.

LOL @ Sirro & Blocker having HUGE RAPS. Great evidence that is. Heard Blocker speak about footy, have you? If you switch on the Fox coverage when he's on you should be able to hear what I mean...

You mentioned Tigers fans reaction to him, so I mentioned the Tigers fans I know (more than one - but the guy I mentioned is a superfan who goes to all the games in the Sydney area every year). Very different reaction - clearly, this was not a universally held view. Cult figure eh? Charlie Gubb is considered a cult figure here, care to stick up for him too? Perhaps if I said he was mental.... (lol)

Just out of curiosity, you say he was getting standing ovations.... I think you mean, the team was getting standing ovations and he happened to be a part of that team. Unless you're suggesting Tigers fans were giving him standing O's when he got subbed off? lol

You sure you're not a Tigers fan ole mate?

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

 

[PhantomChief]

Jesus H Christ... That is absolute rubbish. Learn what context is then come back to me. Rubbish like that is (one of the reasons) why people like Trump get people supporting them for "anti-PC" reasons and feel free to say whatever comes to mind.

I obviously wasn't talking about actual mental health issues, but doing stupid stuff on the field. No, I won't mind using the word. Because words take on different meaning according to context. Duh.

LOL @ Sirro & Blocker having HUGE RAPS. Great evidence that is. Heard Blocker speak about footy, have you? If you switch on the Fox coverage when he's on you should be able to hear what I mean...

You mentioned Tigers fans reaction to him, so I mentioned the Tigers fans I know (more than one - but the guy I mentioned is a superfan who goes to all the games in the Sydney area every year). Very different reaction - clearly, this was not a universally held view. Cult figure eh? Charlie Gubb is considered a cult figure here, care to stick up for him too? Perhaps if I said he was mental.... (lol)

Just out of curiosity, you say he was getting standing ovations.... I think you mean, the team was getting standing ovations and he happened to be a part of that team. Unless you're suggesting Tigers fans were giving him standing O's when he got subbed off? lol

You sure you're not a Tigers fan ole mate?

Context ... really ok, ok. The whole point of this whole argument was on my steer on Gavet being at his best at the Tigers because I was there during that time! I would've thought that would have been something most posters could have an opinion on. You came back with a disagreement about that and we debated it. Use of the word "mental" I believed to be inappropriate, we then went on a back and forth argument or something like that but now it's getting a wee bit personal. I'm leaving it there because of it. The banter's good though I must add - the Charlie Gubb one's kinda funny.

Let's leave it there shall we - agree to disagree - simple and leave it at that!

If you do live in Auckland and get a chance, do go to Kelston Boys - you can catch up with Jimmy, sometime Benny Henry and Dave Fustitua support their old team.

I wanna get back to the Toa / England game.

 

[PhantomChief]

hahah.. glad to entertain the boys!

 

[PhantomChief]

Nice bantering with ya jaseg - now can we get back to the footy!

 

[jaseg]

I live in Sydney these days, but I don't doubt he's a good fella. Like I said, I've heard only positive things.

Nice bantering with ya jaseg - now can we get back to the footy!

It was a pleasure

 

[PhantomChief]

I live in Sydney these days, but I don't doubt he's a good fella. Like I said, I've heard only positive things.



It was a pleasure

True that brother. Just want him to keep kicking arse now that he's with the right team.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

I'd say so far, he's been the surprise package for me.
Easily the most improved player from last season.

Let's hope its consistent and potentially kick on even further!

 

[legs 11]

gavet...the ready made replacement for bromwich

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Seeing as we all rate him, can we settle on a pronunciation of his name, as the commentators can't. Is it Gav-ay or Gav-ett?