Jennings to the Roosters?

[franklin2323]

Lewis was on bugger all for us so no reason too release him. Yet in both cases no where did we say these players are in our long term plans.

 

[Pomoz]

Every club has three or four players earning over 500k, they are your game changer type players, currently the Panthers have none, how can you hope to compete with an average player list. The irony is, he is letting go of local marquee talent like Lewis, Gordon and Jennings to sign a superstar in JT, but someone like JT will look at the clubs roster and then up his fee if he has to play with an average roster. Then they will try and use JT like Petro to sign other players, where they will again pay overs for players because they have a shite roster, in three years the Panthers will be in the same position, having huge back ended contracts, but this time paying players who have no local and cultural relationship with the club.

Its a good theory, and throw in three other marquee players in Pritchard, Waterhouse and Petero and now your talking! Oh, wait a minute, we had that and won, err wait a minute, add two, carry the three, deduct seven, errr that would be NIL!

Why lament the loss of those players. They didn't have sufficient influence on a game to make the difference. We couldn't even make the semi's consistently for chrissake. They were good players, but game changers? If they were we would have done a lot better than we did.
They are gone. Thanks for your effort boys. Time to move on. Nothing to see here, they had their shot and failed.

 

[Pomoz]

The mercenaries we have now are mostly a stop gap. With the new focus on juniors we should have a team largely made up of locals (with up and coming halves coached by Thurston) in a few years.

In fact Gus has even said so. "they are journeyman hired to do a job and make us competitive while we build a team to be a premiership threat in 2015". I am happy to buy into that because you can't turn around a team in one year when it was as bad as we were.

 

[Pomoz]

I think a lot of you are underestimating Phil Gould. I can understand why because on the surface you have lost Jennings, Gordon and Lewis and it probably feels like you have been rebuilding for years already. However, Gould came along when your club was basically falling apart.

As others have already said; Elliot and Leary really mucked things up when they were running the show. So much so that a centre was on the same kind of money as a halfback and captain. Something has to give and thankfully Gus Gould has the gumption to make the tough calls:

* Cut an overpaid and under performing Jennings
* Cut Gordon who was overpaid for a winger and never on the field
* Cut Lewis who wielded too much power over the playing group

The worst thing to happen to Penrith was the culture present under Matt Elliot where Petro "players union" Civoniceva was handed the reigns by the coach. Luke Lewis picked up where Petro left off and there were too many chiefs and not enough Indians. When Elliot was cut, the players marched into Mick Leary's office demanding answers; the audacity of it all. You are being payed by the club and you play for whoever the club tells you to play for. The only reason why they did not want Elliot to leave was because they could do whatever they damn well pleased. A formula of that kind will never be successful.

Tough decisions have been made, but Gus has bought in the most promising young coach in the game who takes no f**king prisoners. Gould is an absolute master at identifying young talent and he is a very influential human being. Give it time for the master plan to be executed and I think the Panther will rise again!

What he said!

 

[MaxPower]

Lewis was on bugger all for us so no reason too release him. Yet in both cases no where did we say these players are in our long term plans.

Which players have we said are in our long term plans?

 

[Thirsty Panther]

Which players have we said are in our long term plans?

The following are signed until 2015. Blake Austin, Lewis Brown, Tim Grant, Sika Manu, James Segeyaro, Sam Mckendry, Brad Tighe and Luke Walsh.

I know some of you won't be happy with all of the players there.

 

[MaxPower]

It has already been established that having a contract does not mean a player is part of our long term plans.

 

[BOMAR]

In fact Gus has even said so. "they are journeyman hired to do a job and make us competitive while we build a team to be a premiership threat in 2015". I am happy to buy into that because you can't turn around a team in one year when it was as bad as we were.

I dont know whether I buy the spin. Souths turned their team around in a seaspn, so to cronulla and I dare say roosters will be a real threat next year.

 

[franklin2323]

Which players have we said are in our long term plans?

I would say the players on multi year deals from gus are safe.

 

[darkbloom]

In fact Gus has even said so. "they are journeyman hired to do a job and make us competitive while we build a team to be a premiership threat in 2015". I am happy to buy into that because you can't turn around a team in one year when it was as bad as we were.

Yes maybe a season is too short. But Gus joined in mid 2011 and he's saying it will be 4 seasons to challenge.

Richo and Lang joined at the end of wooden spoon year 2001 and we'd won a comp in 2003.

Lang and Richo spent zero time looking back at Simmons and Levy, the accepted what they had to deal with and they got on with taking responsibility and doing what they had to do and managing the team and the club.

Gus has spent enormous energy blaming the past, the players, some fan groups, anyone he can find. Think about this and the reason he has given himself 4 years before he starts being accountable.

 

[Pomoz]

Yes maybe a season is too short. But Gus joined in mid 2011 and he's saying it will be 4 seasons to challenge.

Richo and Lang joined at the end of wooden spoon year 2001 and we'd won a comp in 2003.

Lang and Richo spent zero time looking back at Simmons and Levy, the accepted what they had to deal with and they got on with taking responsibility and doing what they had to do and managing the team and the club.

Gus has spent enormous energy blaming the past, the players, some fan groups, anyone he can find. Think about this and the reason he has given himself 4 years before he starts being accountable.

Hmm, Lang inherited a dally m winning half back, a SOO front rower, an Australian rep hooker and the most underrated centre (SOO quality) in the last ten years. He then got a second dally m winning half back. It also coincided with a local junior full back becoming one of the top three players in his position at the time (Rhys W). The spine of 1, 6,7 and 9 was all of the highest quality. The current team spine does not have a single player who would be selected in that team. Sure, we had a good centre, Jenko, a rep quality back rower - Luke and a reasonable full back/winger. All non-core positions. Luke Lewis and Michael Gordon spend more time in casualty than on the pitch. Sorry, but to compare what John Lang inherited from Royce to the current bunch is laughable. Besides the players that were in both squads (Lewis, Waterhouse) I doubt a single player in the 2011 team, except maybe Jenko would have made the 2001 team. The form of Ross, Clinton and Lang in 2001 onwards would have kept Tim Grant on the bench at best.

All subjective of course, but Gus and Ivan have inherited a dead set mess. Souths? It has taken longer than a year to get them on their feet and they had the benefit of private investment from Crowe.

I am sure Langy and Richo didn't bag of Royce and co because the team they inherited was an excellent one. in fact, he thanked Royce on the day of the grand final win.

 

[darkbloom]

Have to disagree.

I think you are looking at the 2001-2 squad in terms of what happened later not from what it was like inside the 2001 season. This seems to be shown by the fact you have some errors

Rhys Wesser was not a top not notch 1 when Lang took over. Lang contributed heavily to his development.

Waterhouse did not make his debut until late 2002.

Lewis had played on 3 first grade games when Lang took over.

Gower was still untried at half in the top grade.

I think if you compare the two rosters - 2001 & 2011 - for representatives. And looked at what they did the year prior - you would have to admit the comparison is hardly laughable.

The point still stands though - the mark of the men is how they behaved. One immediately accpeted responsibility for the job he had to do, the other deferred his responsibility for 4 years by blaming others - including some of the players themselves.

I know who I'd rather have in the trenches.

P.S. Matt Elliott went for the same approach. Came in, made a point of what a hero he was taking on the mess left by others, and proceeded to work on established stars to get them to leave.

 

[franklin2323]

:lol::lol:Some people have selective memories. We were a basketcase in 01-02 like we are now.

Shall we look at the premiership winning team:

Presto- reserve grade at Sharks.
Wesser couldn't catch a ball in 2001.
Clinton debut 2002.
Waterhouse debut 2002.
Ben Ross debut 2002.
Whatuira debut 2002.
Galuvao an overweight fullback can't crack Warriors team.
Swain far too small.
Rodney's 1st year.
Lewis, Rooney 20 yos with 20 or so 1st grade games.

We had decent 1st graders like Elford, Hicks, Turner, Pritchard all play in the reserve grade game GF day.

 

[Pomoz]

Selective indeed. Gower untried at half? He had already played SOO and for Australia prior to 2001. Rhys scored 10 tries in his first season and 19 in the next. The way you tell it, he was a nobody till Langy coached him. He wasn't the finished article by any means but he was clearly going to be a great player (albeit with some flaws). Lang then had the benefit of Luke Priddis joining in his first year. A signing secured by Royce. So let's see. Langy starts with an Australian rep number 7 and an Australian rep number 9 and a try scoring whiz at number 1. To say Rhys couldn't catch overlooks the fact that he was a try scoring machine in a key position. Lewis and Rooney had already made appearances for the team as well. Dare I mention Tony Puletua and Ryan Girdler who is a far better player than Jenko will ever be.

But lets ignore the other positions, Langy started with three of the four key positions covered with quality. You need a big three and preferably a big four. How do our big three compare? Kev K vs Luke Priddis? Gower vs Walsh? Wesser vs Coote? Journeyman vs legends.

History shows that Langy did a great job of bringing through the juniors he inherited and adding two vital ingredients - Preston Campbell and Martin Lang. But this is not about Langy, he is a legend and a likeable bloke and I am not devaluing what he did. The results speak for themselves , he won a premiership. But, he was handed a rough diamond of a team. Ivan has been handed a house brick.

 

[soc123_au]

Its not often I would disagree with you Franklin, but I would have to agree with Pomoz. Lang had work to do no doubt but the foundations were there.

I think Richo started the rot with some stupid backended contracts hence Elliott claiming to have inherited a mess. Problem is he & Leary dumped some "stars" and then did the same bloody thing that had caused the issue to start with. Only arguably with stupider contracts.

Gus & Cleary are in the same boat Elliott claimed to be, but at least although we cop a painful cleanout we should also have the foundations not to need a repeat every few years. I dont buy into everything Gus says but I think he is on the right track regarding recruitment & retention.

Gus & Ivan also stated from day one there would be some pain. Elliott started by saying now he finally has some decent "Cattle"

 

[darkbloom]

My bad Pomoz, stupid mistake about Gower by me. No idea what I was thinking there.

I do think Gus and Ivan are setting a good recruitment base.

What I find intolerable is Gus' need to continually harp and blame others. And to continually give himself 4 years breathing space.

And I still think you are looking at 2001 and 2002 with brightly coloured hindsight glasses. The premiership in 2003 covered up the mess that was 2001 and the struggle that was 2002.

 

[Pomoz]

:lol::lol:Some people have selective memories. We were a basketcase in 01-02 like we are now.

Shall we look at the premiership winning team:

Presto- reserve grade at Sharks.
Wesser couldn't catch a ball in 2001.
Clinton debut 2002.
Waterhouse debut 2002.
Ben Ross debut 2002.
Whatuira debut 2002.
Galuvao an overweight fullback can't crack Warriors team.
Swain far too small.
Rodney's 1st year.
Lewis, Rooney 20 yos with 20 or so 1st grade games.

We had decent 1st graders like Elford, Hicks, Turner, Pritchard all play in the reserve grade game GF day.

Farnklin, I don't see what relevance there is in comparing the 2003 team with what he inherited. To compare apples with apples we will have to see what Gus has built in a few years.
Without doubt, Gus is not as unassuming and down to earth as Langy and comes across as an egotistical type. But lets not confuse the issue of the mess Gus has inherited, with Gus's unpleasant persona.

 

[Pomoz]

Its not often I would disagree with you Franklin, but I would have to agree with Pomoz. Lang had work to do no doubt but the foundations were there.

I think Richo started the rot with some stupid backended contracts hence Elliott claiming to have inherited a mess. Problem is he & Leary dumped some "stars" and then did the same bloody thing that had caused the issue to start with. Only arguably with stupider contracts.

Gus & Cleary are in the same boat Elliott claimed to be, but at least although we cop a painful cleanout we should also have the foundations not to need a repeat every few years. I dont buy into everything Gus says but I think he is on the right track regarding recruitment & retention.

Gus & Ivan also stated from day one there would be some pain. Elliott started by saying now he finally has some decent "Cattle"

I remember that. It must have pissed off the Canberra players no end. Fast forward to them sticking 70 points past us.....

 

[Pomoz]

My bad Pomoz, stupid mistake about Gower by me. No idea what I was thinking there.

I do think Gus and Ivan are setting a good recruitment base.

What I find intolerable is Gus' need to continually harp and blame others. And to continually give himself 4 years breathing space.

And I still think you are looking at 2001 and 2002 with brightly coloured hindsight glasses. The premiership in 2003 covered up the mess that was 2001 and the struggle that was 2002.

Fair enough. I don't have rose coloured glasses though. Being a season ticket holder I sat through all the floggings gritting my teeth. In fact, I think we won 7 games in Langy's first year (02), the same as Royce in his last year. But 2003 and 2004 were good years and the team was playing some of the best attacking football anywhere in the NRL. It went downhill after that culminating in the appointment of Elliott in 2007 and mediocrity reigned thereafter.

It has been tough being a Penrith fan since 05. One semi appearance and thats all she wrote. A pitiful semi appearance at that.

I agree that Gus certainly doesn't do himself any favours with his arrogant persona. He puts people offside even when he is doing good work.

 

[franklin2323]

Farnklin, I don't see what relevance there is in comparing the 2003 team with what he inherited. To compare apples with apples we will have to see what Gus has built in a few years.
Without doubt, Gus is not as unassuming and down to earth as Langy and comes across as an egotistical type. But lets not confuse the issue of the mess Gus has inherited, with Gus's unpleasant persona.

Didn't Richo and Lang start in 2002? Gus started in mid 2011. I don't know the contract situation from then. I assume the semi's run in 2000 inflated players contracts like the 2010 run did.

Gus inherited:

Jennings SOO player.
Lewis SOO and test player
Petero SOO and Test player
Grant Future SOO player
McKendry test player
Gordon SOO player

Imagine that base with a half (Preston) a Hooker (Priddis) compared too stop gap backrowers like Newton, Ciraldo etc.