Junior development/Reserve grade & other musings

[Pomoz]

If ever there was a discussion topic to generate debate, besides Matt Moylan's best position, its junior development. I don't think Gus's ideas on the subject were really articulated in a single speech or article, you have to read and watch many bits of media to pice together his strategy.

This is a few excerpts from Gus's article "It's player development, not cash, that keeps Roosters on top". It gives insights into his thinking:

"...As I left the ground I listened to the friendly banter between rival fans. Nothing sinister; just friendly ribbing with plenty of mutual respect for each other’s team. They know they will meet again come September.

Among the exchanges, though, were the age-old accusations that the Roosters buy their premierships by poaching representative-class players from rival clubs. This is one of the great myths of our game and these comments always grate on the Roosters faithful.

What is rarely highlighted is that in the past 20 seasons the Roosters have become one the leading developers of young talent in the game. Friday night's win, in particular, emphasised this. Before I explain, let’s have a history lesson.

Roosters' 2002 premiership

Of the 17 players in that premiership-winning team, nine (Shannon Hegarty, Anthony Minichiello, Simon Bonetti, Peter Cusack, Luke Ricketson, Bryan Fletcher, Andrew Lomu, Chris Flannery and Michael Crocker) made their NRL debuts with the Roosters.

Roosters' 2013 premiership

Of the 17 players in that premiership team, 10 (Anthony Minichiello, Daniel Tupou, Shaun Kenny-Dowall, Roger Tuivasa-Sheck, Mitchell Pearce, Aidan Guerra, Boyd Cordner, Jake Friend, Frank-Paul Nuuausala and Mitchell Aubusson) made their NRL debuts with the Roosters, while Jared Waerea-Hargreaves played just 6 matches for Manly in 2009 before joining the Club.

Roosters' 2018 premiership

Of the 17 players in that premiership team, 10 (Tupou, Mitchell, Joseph Manu, Friend, Cordner, Aubusson, Victor Radley, Isaac Liu, Dylan Napa and Ryan Matterson) made their NRL debuts with the Roosters, while two others (Sio Siua Taukeiaho and Waerea-Hargreaves) played just seven NRL matches prior to joining.

....What sets apart players such as Tupouniua, Butcher, Verrills, Curran, Faaumasili and another Roosters 2019 debutant Lachlan Lam from so many other NRL youngsters is the football education they receive at the Roosters. Despite their young age, when they make their debut at the Roosters they are ready. They have been at the club since a young age and the development programs that they go through have them as prepared for the NRL as a youngster can possibly be.

Look through the team lists and you will find a myriad of players who were at the Roosters prior to making their NRL debut, but are now playing elsewhere. Contrary to conventional wisdom, the Roosters have had to let many of these players go, but the players will still speak highly of their early years with the Roosters. They are all in the senior squads at their current clubs: Kenny-Dowall, Guerra, Tautau Moga, Connor Watson, Pearce (Knights); Joseph Leilua, Jack Murchie, Iosia Soliola (Raiders); Ryley Jacks, Treymain Spry (Titans); Jahrome Hughes, Sandor Earl (Storm); Brad Takairangi, Kane Evans (Parramatta); Tuivasa-Sheck, Jackson Frei, Leivaha Pulu, Taane Milne, Blake Ayshford (Warriors); John Asiata, Javid Bowen, Nene Macdonald (Cowboys); Momirovski, Matterson, Esan Marsters, Luke Garner (Tigers); Rhyse Martin, Napa (Bulldogs); Sean O'Sullivan, Joe Ofahengaue (Broncos); James Tamou, Frank Winterstein (Panthers); Ethan Lowe (Souths); Brendan Elliot, Lloyd Perrett (Manly); Kurt Capewell, Braden Hamlin-Uele (Sharks)."

That's 37 players, plus 19 of the 29-man Roosters squad, and it's possible I have missed a few. It's impressive, to say the least.

The Roosters have played in 11 preliminary finals in the past 21 seasons, in seven of the last 19 grand finals, won four of the past six minor premierships and won three of the past 17 titles. They do so, not by buying premierships, but by identifying and developing talent at a rate better than the rest.

They are able to buy players such as Tedesco, Cooper Cronk, Keary, Hall and Angus Crichton because so many of their other squad members have been developed in-house. They are worthy premiership favourites again in 2019 on the back of another squad dominated by products they have developed."

I believe this is what Gus wanted for us. Recruit juniors of various ages from all over the country, not just the local area. Juniors includes players who may have just debuted elsewhere (strictly speaking a rookie not a junior. JWH for example, 6 games with Manly) or, who haven't debuted but are a bit older than what is traditionally thought of as juniors.

 

[OldPanther]

Well they are and they aren't. Scattergun implies it is random but it is not. Listen to Gus's podcast, this is exactly what he recommends you do if a star player isn't going to stay (Pongia's contract renewal was the topic for discussion) or in Cronk's case, going to retire. You focus your development and recruitment on replacing the star player. If you recruit five halves you are hoping one of them will make it. This is almost an exact copy of the strategy he discussed on "Six tackles with Gus".

I'll go have a listen thanks.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Generally speaking not just talking about penrith here, it’s a lot easier to be committed and work hard and sacrifice when your a kid chasing a dream, when you hit 18, 19 20 and start getting paid(60k is a lot to a teen) start getting a name for yourself I think some kids start thinking they’ve made it before they have, attitude drops off a little and they fall away. Young guys don’t have to go off the rails for their lifestyles or attitude to negatively effect their abilities.

I think also at the junior level the game just comes easy to some kids, they get picked in every team off the back of their natural gifts and they never build a work ethic. They hit the nrl where you have to work no matter how talented you are and they can’t adjust.

And then you are always going to lose a few to alcohol, drugs, partying etc

This is kind of why I suggested living away from home could be good for some of them. Teach them some responsibility and gain some maturity.

 

[herbert henry1908]

The more you have the more competition there is for top spots and you have a higher ceiling for talent coming through. It's completely connected. Not the only issue though and I have no idea how to increase the quality of the comp.

We fail to often to get them to the next level. That needs to be the main focus in my view.

I could care less if the junior teams win or lose, it should all be about getting them ready to play first grade.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Is having a large junior league a anchor rather than a v8 engine. Penrith Parramatta Newcastle how many comps has been won combined by the 3 in the last 10 years .Melbourne roosters no real junior leagues to lose money on spend it on recruitment. We have plenty of players right now in our lower grades who we can say will not get to first grade. They are there as juniors coming through the grades

I think it is.

The development clubs simply aren’t compensated enough for the work they do.

Top 30 is a classic example. For a club line ours it can hamper us. If we can’t promote someone to FG at the right time we risk losing them.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I think the issue is our coaching staff at NRL level. Not just head coach. But everyone. Assistants. Training staff etc.

We have the best juniors for the most part. We develop probably more NRL players than any team. But development stops upon hitting the NRL basically. I wouldn't blame our head coaches solely for it. But they're part of it. Put the players we develop into the Storm system instead of ours and almost all of them become the stars we expect them to be.

If we kept all the guys who have been through our system at some point we would have guys like Andrew Fifita, Cody Walker, Damien Cook, Maiko Sivo, Braidon Burns etc. But none of them would probably be half the player they are today.

Very few of our players improve with experience in the NRL. Their careers lind of stall at that level... when they all have the potential to be better than we saw.

This is why I raise the possibility of stealing something from the storm. Their youngsters playing in Queensland Cup surely has something to do with their success? They get exposed to a tougher comp, different coaches, and have to really prove themselves to get a call up.

 

[herbert henry1908]

If ever there was a discussion topic to generate debate, besides Matt Moylan's best position, its junior development. I don't think Gus's ideas on the subject were really articulated in a single speech or article, you have to read and watch many bits of media to pice together his strategy.

This is a few excerpts from Gus's article "It's player development, not cash, that keeps Roosters on top". It gives insights into his thinking:

"...As I left the ground I listened to the friendly banter between rival fans. Nothing sinister; just friendly ribbing with plenty of mutual respect for each other’s team. They know they will meet again come September.

Among the exchanges, though, were the age-old accusations that the Roosters buy their premierships by poaching representative-class players from rival clubs. This is one of the great myths of our game and these comments always grate on the Roosters faithful.

What is rarely highlighted is that in the past 20 seasons the Roosters have become one the leading developers of young talent in the game. Friday night's win, in particular, emphasised this. Before I explain, let’s have a history lesson.

Roosters' 2002 premiership

Of the 17 players in that premiership-winning team, nine (Shannon Hegarty, Anthony Minichiello, Simon Bonetti, Peter Cusack, Luke Ricketson, Bryan Fletcher, Andrew Lomu, Chris Flannery and Michael Crocker) made their NRL debuts with the Roosters.

Roosters' 2013 premiership

Of the 17 players in that premiership team, 10 (Anthony Minichiello, Daniel Tupou, Shaun Kenny-Dowall, Roger Tuivasa-Sheck, Mitchell Pearce, Aidan Guerra, Boyd Cordner, Jake Friend, Frank-Paul Nuuausala and Mitchell Aubusson) made their NRL debuts with the Roosters, while Jared Waerea-Hargreaves played just 6 matches for Manly in 2009 before joining the Club.

Roosters' 2018 premiership

Of the 17 players in that premiership team, 10 (Tupou, Mitchell, Joseph Manu, Friend, Cordner, Aubusson, Victor Radley, Isaac Liu, Dylan Napa and Ryan Matterson) made their NRL debuts with the Roosters, while two others (Sio Siua Taukeiaho and Waerea-Hargreaves) played just seven NRL matches prior to joining.

....What sets apart players such as Tupouniua, Butcher, Verrills, Curran, Faaumasili and another Roosters 2019 debutant Lachlan Lam from so many other NRL youngsters is the football education they receive at the Roosters. Despite their young age, when they make their debut at the Roosters they are ready. They have been at the club since a young age and the development programs that they go through have them as prepared for the NRL as a youngster can possibly be.

Look through the team lists and you will find a myriad of players who were at the Roosters prior to making their NRL debut, but are now playing elsewhere. Contrary to conventional wisdom, the Roosters have had to let many of these players go, but the players will still speak highly of their early years with the Roosters. They are all in the senior squads at their current clubs: Kenny-Dowall, Guerra, Tautau Moga, Connor Watson, Pearce (Knights); Joseph Leilua, Jack Murchie, Iosia Soliola (Raiders); Ryley Jacks, Treymain Spry (Titans); Jahrome Hughes, Sandor Earl (Storm); Brad Takairangi, Kane Evans (Parramatta); Tuivasa-Sheck, Jackson Frei, Leivaha Pulu, Taane Milne, Blake Ayshford (Warriors); John Asiata, Javid Bowen, Nene Macdonald (Cowboys); Momirovski, Matterson, Esan Marsters, Luke Garner (Tigers); Rhyse Martin, Napa (Bulldogs); Sean O'Sullivan, Joe Ofahengaue (Broncos); James Tamou, Frank Winterstein (Panthers); Ethan Lowe (Souths); Brendan Elliot, Lloyd Perrett (Manly); Kurt Capewell, Braden Hamlin-Uele (Sharks)."

That's 37 players, plus 19 of the 29-man Roosters squad, and it's possible I have missed a few. It's impressive, to say the least.

The Roosters have played in 11 preliminary finals in the past 21 seasons, in seven of the last 19 grand finals, won four of the past six minor premierships and won three of the past 17 titles. They do so, not by buying premierships, but by identifying and developing talent at a rate better than the rest.

They are able to buy players such as Tedesco, Cooper Cronk, Keary, Hall and Angus Crichton because so many of their other squad members have been developed in-house. They are worthy premiership favourites again in 2019 on the back of another squad dominated by products they have developed."

I believe this what Gus wanted for us. Recruit juniors of various ages from all over the country, not just the local area. Juniors includes players who may have just debuted elsewhere (strictly speaking a rookie not a junior. JWH for example, 6 games with Manly) or, who haven't debuted but are a bit older than what is traditionally thought of as juniors.

Gus’ strategy of looking for the best juniors around the country is a good one, where his strategy falls down is probably is two places.

We must be able to convert them into good first graders. If we can’t do that it doesn’t matter how many good juniors we recruit.

And secondly as I’ve mentioned before I don’t think there’s enough blending of those juniors with experience.

I get what he was trying to do, but we somehow need to find our own path not that of the Bronocs or Roosters. That doesn’t mean it can’t partly work for us, but in the roosters case (as you’ve pointed out before) they can more easily compliment that junior talent with genuine stars.

Now we may not be able to recruit absolute stars like Tedesco or Cronk, but I think we can have a good go at the next level down.

I just hope the club don’t take their eye off recruitment of experience.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I wonder if the success of the junior teams over the years led to complacency?

Even when our junior teams had lean years we often snagged a premiership in one of the grades.

 

[OldPanther]

We fail to often to get them to the next level. That needs to be the main focus in my view.

I could care less if the junior teams win or lose, it should all be about getting them ready to play first grade.

I agree. We already win reserve grade so the earlier comment about NRL level coaching must be the issue.

 

[betcats]

As an NBA fan you regularly see top draft picks bust out and become shitty players. Top nba draft picks get scouted and ranked from a very young age, colleges and nba teams spend millions and millions on it and yet they still get it wrong regularly. More often then not the best player from each years draft is picked outside the top five, some of them are way down.

 

[franklin2323]

This is kind of why I suggested living away from home could be good for some of them. Teach them some responsibility and gain some maturity.

Get away from their mates too. A 20 year old apprentice can go out and be a kid. Some one like Ponga can't so it takes determination not all have it

 

[franklin2323]

Pomoz those guys under John Lang wasn't so much QLD Cup it was they had time to develop.

Look through our team of the locals who has had an extended stint in NSW Cup before coming up?

It is why Wade Graham is so much better then the others that left. He had the extended period in lower grades. More of that will help

 

[franklin2323]

As an NBA fan you regularly see top draft picks bust out and become shitty players. Top nba draft picks get scouted and ranked from a very young age, colleges and nba teams spend millions and millions on it and yet they still get it wrong regularly. More often then not the best player from each years draft is picked outside the top five, some of them are way down.

I am a Knicks fan so know duds well. Reason for that is look at the age of those guys. Multiple years of college to develop compared to one year. We often rush

 

[franklin2323]

I wonder if the success of the junior teams over the years led to complacency?

Even when our junior teams had lean years we often snagged a premiership in one of the grades.

I wouldn't say complacency but rushes the development

 

[herbert henry1908]

I agree. We already win reserve grade so the earlier comment about NRL level coaching must be the issue.

It’s probably a part of it, but it’s not just it.

Remember it’s not a true reserve grade. Arguably if the players aren’t kicking on when they get they get to first grade then the lower grade coaching has failed too. We shouldn’t be coaching to win, we should be coaching to prepare first graders. If winning is a side benefit that’s great.

 

[betcats]

Pomoz those guys under John Lang wasn't so much QLD Cup it was they had time to develop.

Look through our team of the locals who has had an extended stint in NSW Cup before coming up?

It is why Wade Graham is so much better then the others that left. He had the extended period in lower grades. More of that will help

He debuted at 18 or 19 I’m pretty sure.

 

[Panfa]

I cant believe spencer leniu is off contract at the end of the yr and hasnt been resigned hes a great young prop wouldnt wanna lose him surely.What we need to do is create pathways for our young guys to 1st grade some have already come through the system and are there already.Guys like mansour tamou whare should be moved on for the likes of leniu chrichton naden mcgrady johns and co.

 

[Pomoz]

Gus’ strategy of looking for the best juniors around the country is a good one, where his strategy falls down is probably is two places.

We must be able to convert them into good first graders. If we can’t do that it doesn’t matter how many good juniors we recruit.

And secondly as I’ve mentioned before I don’t think there’s enough blending of those juniors with experience.

I get what he was trying to do, but we somehow need to find our own path not that of the Bronocs or Roosters. That doesn’t mean it can’t partly work for us, but in the roosters case (as you’ve pointed out before) they can more easily compliment that junior talent with genuine stars.

Now we may not be able to recruit absolute stars like Tedesco or Cronk, but I think we can have a good go at the next level down.

I just hope the club don’t take their eye off recruitment of experience.

These are good points, but I don't think it is a failure to convert them. We have improved that quite considerably. It's just a long process Herbert and we have only now reached a point where the system is producing enough quality juniors to even carry out a strategy like the Roosters. It takes quite a few year to prime the development supply chain and now that we have, albeit still with a few gaps, we are in a position to start using it to our benefit. In comes Naden, Martin, Kenny and Too in one year. They all come in and perform. Out goes DWZ. It will help us free up cap space to go after some experienced players from other clubs, subject to the limitations of finding somebody who will sign with Penrith. The club is really set up to do that, it's now up to the recruitment team to find the players and get the blend you suggest. No excuses.

Of course, if you are doing this long enough, your experienced players could in fact all be juniors and we can use the cash to sign a potential superstar like Pongia. I agree 100% you can't win a premiership without the right amount of experience in the team, in the spine positions it's crucial that most of them are experienced.

 

[Pomoz]

I wonder if the success of the junior teams over the years led to complacency?

Even when our junior teams had lean years we often snagged a premiership in one of the grades.

I think thats right. I also don't think anybody realised that getting them to NRL standard also requires management and coaching. Gus made the point that even a star like Pongia needs a lot of coaching and it can be the difference between success and failure. They are just raw material when they leave u20's, somebody has to mould them into a first grader.

 

[The Realist]

We fail to often to get them to the next level. That needs to be the main focus in my view.

I could care less if the junior teams win or lose, it should all be about getting them ready to play first grade.

I agree, MX said it best, it is our coaches, assistants etc who have failed to get our juniors to that final level of successful 1st graders.