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Junior development/Reserve grade & other musings

TheFrog

Coach
Messages
14,300
I get that, but we have a large junior nursery, so we should be producing more top level talent than other clubs. But that doesn’t appear to be the case.

We produce a lot of handy footballers, but you can count on one hand the the amount of superstars we’ve had at our club. In 52 years of existence I’m not sure that’s good enough.
One who made the hall of fame. And he had to leave Penrith to do it.
 

panther.mike

Juniors
Messages
250
Coaches, assistants and trainers all have to be better at their jobs as well as talent scouts. We seem to retain the wrong players and let go the good ones.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
He debuted at 18 or 19 I’m pretty sure.

He did but went back down. I can't think of a top player that hasn't gone backdown after debuting. We tend to debut x player. They go well so push out senior guys within 2-3 years opposition have them worked out and they don't get to work on new things and they stagnate
 
Messages
21,867
These are good points, but I don't think it is a failure to convert them. We have improved that quite considerably. It's just a long process Herbert and we have only now reached a point where the system is producing enough quality juniors to even carry out a strategy like the Roosters. It takes quite a few year to prime the development supply chain and now that we have, albeit still with a few gaps, we are in a position to start using it to our benefit. In comes Naden, Martin, Kenny and Too in one year. They all come in and perform. Out goes DWZ. It will help us free up cap space to go after some experienced players from other clubs, subject to the limitations of finding somebody who will sign with Penrith. The club is really set up to do that, it's now up to the recruitment team to find the players and get the blend you suggest. No excuses.

Of course, if you are doing this long enough, your experienced players could in fact all be juniors and we can use the cash to sign a potential superstar like Pongia. I agree 100% you can't win a premiership without the right amount of experience in the team, in the spine positions it's crucial that most of them are experienced.


Gus was here for close to 8 years, I think that should’ve been enough time to see more fruits than we have. In that time we just haven’t produced a team from his strategy that can compete with the best.

In fact the best team under his watch was mostly outside senior recruits.


Gus joined the roosters in 1994, under his tenure as coach they had a 62% win record. 8 seasons after he started they’d made a grand final and won a grand final.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,864
Gus was here for close to 8 years, I think that should’ve been enough time to see more fruits than we have. In that time we just haven’t produced a team from his strategy that can compete with the best.

In fact the best team under his watch was mostly outside senior recruits.


Gus joined the roosters in 1994, under his tenure as coach they had a 62% win record. 8 seasons after he started they’d made a grand final and won a grand final.
It depends where you start from doesn't' it. If you come in and start with a good roster then you can do something. We had a roster that was screwed by non spine players taking up 60% of the salary cap, a reserve grade team that was run by St Marys and failed junior development that yielded so few first graders we were signing Burns, Walsh and Ciraldo. Mediocrity squared. The Roosters also had a chairman that was able to fund the acquisition of top class players. He certainly hasn't had that at Penrith.

I think the signs are there that the system is now producing consistently good players and we just need to supplement them with a few astute recruits. Our spine currently consists of three players in their early 20's and an ageing Maloney. This can change over time but there just hasn't been people out in the marketplace that we can attract, so we are doing the best we can with what we can get. One area I do think Gus overlooked and that is the UK. The Raiders have shown there's quality to be had if you look in the right places.

I just don't understand people on this forum. We don't make the semis for years and then we suddenly make them 4 out of 5 years and as a result we conclude the system doesn't work we need to change it. With Gus gone, mistakes and all and Dave's mate trying to recruit mediocrity like Thompson, I can see us returning to one semi appearance every 10 years. I would also add that Ivan's playing style makes your eyeballs bleed. Attractive it aint. At least Hook let the reins off once we were suitably far enough behind. Would any player want to play in a team playing the sort of crap we are producing?

I know everybody wants us to sign some stars and not just rely on juniors and I agree with that, subject to a massive reality check. If the media is to be believed we can't even attract Corey bleeding Thompson to our team. We are just not a club people want to come too. Double that and times by three now we don't have Gus to persuade and charm them.
 
Messages
21,867
It depends where you start from doesn't' it. If you come in and start with a good roster then you can do something. We had a roster that was screwed by non spine players taking up 60% of the salary cap, a reserve grade team that was run by St Marys and failed junior development that yielded so few first graders we were signing Burns, Walsh and Ciraldo. Mediocrity squared. The Roosters also had a chairman that was able to fund the acquisition of top class players. He certainly hasn't had that at Penrith.

The problem with that thinking is we made the top 4 and within three years of Gus taking over.

So Gus actually did turn around the on field results quite quickly, since then he seemingly abandoned a strategy that worked and we haven’t had as good a team since.

I think the signs are there that the system is now producing consistently good players and we just need to supplement them with a few astute recruits. Our spine currently consists of three players in their early 20's and an ageing Maloney. This can change over time but there just hasn't been people out in the marketplace that we can attract, so we are doing the best we can with what we can get. One area I do think Gus overlooked and that is the UK. The Raiders have shown there's quality to be had if you look in the right places.

I think for the system to work well here it needs to unearth stars, not just solid first grade talent. The great hope was Nathan Cleary, hence we gave him a big, multi year deal. But I don’t think he’s going to be a genuine star, which leaves our salary cap in some strife.

I just don't understand people on this forum. We don't make the semis for years and then we suddenly make them 4 out of 5 years and as a result we conclude the system doesn't work we need to change it. With Gus gone, mistakes and all and Dave's mate trying to recruit mediocrity like Thompson, I can see us returning to one semi appearance every 10 years. I would also add that Ivan's playing style makes your eyeballs bleed. Attractive it aint. At least Hook let the reins off once we were suitably far enough behind. Would any player want to play in a team playing the sort of crap we are producing?

Two reasons.

After making the top 4 in 2014, and beating the roosters in week 1 of fbe finals, many of us reasonably felt the team should’ve kicked in from there. Instead we had to go through almost another rebuild. There was poor transitional planning here.

The other reason is some of us want more than mediocrity. The teams have made the finals for the last 3 years, but as Gus said himself, it’s been a poor comp in that period. More than that the team hasn’t performed consistently. In all three of those seasons they had terrible patches & good patches. Sounds a lot like this year? Where’s the development of the team? They should be improving, not standing still.

I know everybody wants us to sign some stars and not just rely on juniors and I agree with that, subject to a massive reality check. If the media is to be believed we can't even attract Corey bleeding Thompson to our team. We are just not a club people want to come too. Double that and times by three now we don't have Gus to persuade and charm them.

Not many clubs consistently signs stars, but we have made big signings before Gus, and we can make them after him.

In fact non of Gus’ signings were as big as Preston Campbell, Luke Priddis, Petero Civonevica,


Penrith might not be a great destination for everyone, but for a family man I think it can be a very good one.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
2,864
Well Herbert, Gus's strategy was to follow the Roosters and Broncos path of development and recruitment. Obviously subject to the limitations of not signing big names because they are unlikely to come our way due to our status. You don't agree with that and we will have to agree to disagree. I can see no better path because of who we are and what we can offer.

I wish we could sign big names, we can't. The players you listed were signed over 10 years ago. In the case of Petero he was on halfback money by all accounts and the team never went well when he was in it because the balance was all wrong. I believe it was Bennett who said you don't pay overs for props and in my view he was pretty much over the hill when he came to Penrith. After all he was 32 years old when he arrived.

When we signed Campbell he was in reserve grade and without Langs involvement most certainly wouldn't have come to us. Priddis was no superstar, he played for Australia 2 and NSW 5 times. I think he was criminally underrated (top bloke too) but clubs weren't knocking down his door to sign him.

Although not superstars, it would be great if we could sign their quality again. Not Petero he was poor value for money. Tamou and Merrin fall into that category, but we don't have enough of them to make a difference. Why? They don't want to play with us.

I love Penrith, I owned a house there, my family all live there. But we need to wake up to ourselves. We were jilted by Corey bleeding Thompson.
 
Messages
21,867
Well Herbert, Gus's strategy was to follow the Roosters and Broncos path of development and recruitment. Obviously subject to the limitations of not signing big names because they are unlikely to come our way due to our status. You don't agree with that and we will have to agree to disagree. I can see no better path because of who we are and what we can offer.

I wish we could sign big names, we can't. The players you listed were signed over 10 years ago. In the case of Petero he was on halfback money by all accounts and the team never went well when he was in it because the balance was all wrong. I believe it was Bennett who said you don't pay overs for props and in my view he was pretty much over the hill when he came to Penrith. After all he was 32 years old when he arrived.

When we signed Campbell he was in reserve grade and without Langs involvement most certainly wouldn't have come to us. Priddis was no superstar, he played for Australia 2 and NSW 5 times. I think he was criminally underrated (top bloke too) but clubs weren't knocking down his door to sign him.

Although not superstars, it would be great if we could sign their quality again. Not Petero he was poor value for money. Tamou and Merrin fall into that category, but we don't have enough of them to make a difference. Why? They don't want to play with us.

I love Penrith, I owned a house there, my family all live there. But we need to wake up to ourselves. We were jilted by Corey bleeding Thompson.


I don’t agree with Gus’ strategy of an 80% target of players debuting for us, not the overall strategy of recruiting the best juniors possible. The fact he put an number on it really concerns me, it means the club might really aim for that rather than just seeing how things play out. We should be aiming to do both juniors and recruitment the best we can.

In my view Gus may have become too focused on juniors & recruiting youngsters, I think this may in part be responsible for the lack of improvement in the last 4 years.


Re your other points. Petero and Tamou are basically a wash there, both given too much money. Plus Petero actually played rep football when he was at the panthers. Tamou hasn’t.

Campbell was in reserve grade, but just the year before he won the best player in the comp. His dropping was ridiculous, and it came from a coach who the game had passed by. There would’ve been plenty of clubs trying to sign Presto.

When we signed Luke Priddis he was the incumbent NSW origin hooker.

The point here with these players is it’s not just Gould that had the secret sauce for player signings, he actually didn’t even focus on stars anyway. Some of Gould’s best signings were mid tier players. Guys like Whare, Peachey, Soward, Lewis Brown, Segeyaro.

These above signings are still achievable.



Also it’s not clear we were jilted by Thompson.
 

Fangs

Coach
Messages
11,447
If we do go on to win the premiership in 2020 then this will be a interesting conversation to re-visit.

That 2015 20s side has our current 1, 6 and 7 plus May. We have also got fantastic depth with Burton, Staines and May all capable of fitting into the spine. We never quite found a 9 that worked well since Segeyaro left. The experienced Peter Wallace was the best of them until Korisau arrived. They always say the spine is a key ingredient of premiership success. Our work in this area may just pay off in 2020.

On the coaching front we got Barrett. He appears to be have been a fantastic foil for Cleary and their combination has been integral to our success. Curious to see how things change when Webster takes up his post in 2021.
 
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