What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

KIWIS training squad

ozbash

Referee
Messages
26,922
England 24-man squad

John Bateman (Wigan)
Joe Burgess (Wigan)
Tom Burgess (South Sydney)
Mike Cooper (St George Illawarra Dragons)
Leroy Cudjoe (Huddersfield)
Ben Currie (Warrington)
Liam Farrell (Wigan)
Brett Ferres (Huddersfield)
Luke Gale (Castleford)
James Graham (Canterbury Bulldogs)
Ryan Hall (Leeds)
Zak Hardaker (Leeds)
Chris Hill (Warrington)
Josh Hodgson (Canberra)
Jermaine McGillvary (Huddersfield)
Sean O’Loughlin (Wigan)
James Roby (St Helens)
Matty Smith (Wigan)
Sam Tomkins (New Zealand Warriors)
Kallum Watkins (Leeds)
Ben Westwood (Warrington)
Elliott Whitehead (Catalans)
Gareth Widdop (St George Illawarra Dragons)
George Williams (Wigan)
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,466
IStrong looking England squad. Bit thin in the second row, especially if Westwood has to fill in at prop for them.

Still they will be hard to beat. Their wingers are awesome, I'd like to have seen Ryan Hall in a Warriors Jersey, Joe Burgess is lightening quick.
 
Messages
65
You wax lyrical fairly well yourself, the score from Titanic comes to mind.
Marshalls playing style has changed, agreed on that. When there is a history between player and coach, sometimes its best to move on. Perhaps Kearney is once bitten (he nearly lost his job over a bunch of dickheads that disrespected him, the Jersey, and fans by taking a bunch of sleeping pills on the eve of a WC final).....twice shy now. Benji may play a different game....but can Kearney really afford the influence in camp of someone he's had negative experience of ? Obviously Benji had nothing to do with the WC, but that experience has likely hardened Kearney's resolve to look at personality type as much as form.

Perhaps he is intolerant, perhaps he's going too far, but he's changed this team for the better no question.

He does have the experience of picking on form above other considerations (he allowed SBW to bugger around then take Tohu's first cap because of the pulling power and fan pleaser aspect of that decision).

Those type of decisions (bending to fan pressure and a players status) back fired on him horribly, he nearly lost his job over the party culture of that playing group....it made him look weak and out of touch within his camp.

Loose cannons can be reigned in by giving them responsibility, that's where I was coming from with Luke and Blair sharing the leadership.

Mckendry and and Taylor were selected ahead of more dynamic players in the past.....those selections were unpopular at that time, that's the swings and roundabouts of coaching.

This tour is about team culture, looking forward. They can afford to take risks and back thier model ts working for them.

You talk some rubbish sup42. You seem to think you know it all but after reading your Sam Tomkins comments before he arrived on how he was going to be the best player in the NRL I aint sure you're the best person to listen to.
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,466
You talk some rubbish sup42. You seem to think you know it all but after reading your Sam Tomkins comments before he arrived on how he was going to be the best player in the NRL I aint sure you're the best person to listen to.

Love the game, enjoy talking with other fans about it, no offence intended.
Tomkins fell well short of where I pictured he'd go in a Warriors team, so I'd be the first to admit I don't know it all, BTW I never said he'd be the best in the NRL.

Clearly I've over stated Kearney's achievements in the minds of the masses, but I'm happy to stand by that, unlike Tomkin's Kearney has the record to back up the trash talk.
 
Last edited:

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,710
Nobody (I don't think) is bashing Kearney's record - personally, I am ok with him choosing whoever he wants given what he's done - just sick of the charade - at least Nikau came out an said it, although denied it was personal

And on his NRL feasibility, I am merely making the observation that they are different beasts and he was woeful in his previous attempt, as was Meninga who has been great at Origin level - a few games is different to a season - for the Warriors I simply don't want to take a chance on someone unproven in that environment (unfortunately we have that already) or someone who's failed in his previous attempts Kearney's in that boat, as was Elliott... Not once in our history have we had a first grade coach with a proven record (Monie didn't coach the Eels, Sterling probably did - and the spinach in my vege garden could hae coached Wigan
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,466
Much rather have Kearney's boss Uncle Wayne coach the Warriors. Meninga and Kearney is a good comparison. Rep coaching success is not a good gauge for NRL coaching....that's very true.

I don't think Kearney would touch the Warriors in any case, pretty sure he has declared that himself in the past.

If Kearney was to coach the Warriors I would hope he was paired up with Kidwell, they seem to have good chemistry.
 

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
IStrong looking England squad. Bit thin in the second row, especially if Westwood has to fill in at prop for them.

Still they will be hard to beat. Their wingers are awesome, I'd like to have seen Ryan Hall in a Warriors Jersey, Joe Burgess is lightening quick.

I really like Brett Ferres, and Ben Currie has developed nicely - been having a really good year. Whitehead is a talent, too - and Westwood/O'Loughlin for the lock spot. Not sure where the weakness is? I'd be more concerned at the (lack of) depth in their front row, if there's any weakness in the pack.

The main thing, though, is this: they STILL don't really have a halfback (ok, we don't either - honestly though, with Hardaker back in the fold England should just move Tomkins to the halves with Widdop... OR PICK BROUGH. neither are much of a chance of happening because McNamara), and the 'other centre' position (ie. not Kallum Watkins) could be a bit of a worry.
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,466
I really like Brett Ferres, and Ben Currie has developed nicely - been having a really good year. Whitehead is a talent, too - and Westwood/O'Loughlin for the lock spot. Not sure where the weakness is? I'd be more concerned at the (lack of) depth in their front row, if there's any weakness in the pack.

The main thing, though, is this: they STILL don't really have a halfback (ok, we don't either - honestly though, with Hardaker back in the fold England should just move Tomkins to the halves with Widdop... OR PICK BROUGH. neither are much of a chance of happening because McNamara), and the 'other centre' position (ie. not Kallum Watkins) could be a bit of a worry.
yeah not so much a weakness in the second row, more an issue if they lose a second rower or Prop, Sean O and Ben w. Are more than adequate, but unlike us they aren't flush with replacements. Macbanana doesn't have his son Sinfeild anymore, II get the sneaking suspicion from his comments that Tomkin's will play halves.
Brough would give them the edge in terms of capitalizing on our lack of experienced halves hey.
Can see bad boy Hardaker at fb surely....but as you say who knows with McNamara. Some are suggesting Hardaker at center, that would be like playing RTS there....waste of a good fullback.
 
Last edited:

Matua

First Grade
Messages
5,212
You wax lyrical fairly well yourself, the score from Titanic comes to mind.
Marshalls playing style has changed, agreed on that. When there is a history between player and coach, sometimes its best to move on. Perhaps Kearney is once bitten (he nearly lost his job over a bunch of dickheads that disrespected him, the Jersey, and fans by taking a bunch of sleeping pills on the eve of a WC final).....twice shy now. Benji may play a different game....but can Kearney really afford the influence in camp of someone he's had negative experience of ? Obviously Benji had nothing to do with the WC, but that experience has likely hardened Kearney's resolve to look at personality type as much as form.

Perhaps he is intolerant, perhaps he's going too far, but he's changed this team for the better no question.

He does have the experience of picking on form above other considerations (he allowed SBW to bugger around then take Tohu's first cap because of the pulling power and fan pleaser aspect of that decision).

Those type of decisions (bending to fan pressure and a players status) back fired on him horribly, he nearly lost his job over the party culture of that playing group....it made him look weak and out of touch within his camp.

Loose cannons can be reigned in by giving them responsibility, that's where I was coming from with Luke and Blair sharing the leadership.

Mckendry and and Taylor were selected ahead of more dynamic players in the past.....those selections were unpopular at that time, that's the swings and roundabouts of coaching.

This tour is about team culture, looking forward. They can afford to take risks and back thier model ts working for them.
I'd prefer The Last of the Mohicans to be honest.

Let me ask you this - are you ok with us losing a test series to England through lack of experience in the halves?

If you are, then this is where you and I differ as fan's. It's a risk not taking the best available players on tour and while I'm happy with Kearney's coaching record to this point I'm not happy to wear a series loss to England in the name of development (or to be honest personalities). Kearney is taking a gamble on the pack doing the job for him, and TBH it's a decent roll of the dice such is the form of the players in that pack, but it's still a gamble. I don't like gambling with the Kiwis.

Also, TBH I think team culture gets over done by coaches, by the media, by fans. Also, a good culture shouldn't be my way or the highway anyway.

Also, regarding your final point, if they can afford to take risks with their model then you'd think that including an in form, experienced half, who has modified his playing style since last in the team, who has made all the right noises about fitting in - would be an acceptable risk to take.
 
Last edited:

Cloudsurfer

Juniors
Messages
1,184
This team has youth, desire & character, what's not to like? Inexperience is about to be turned into experience, not forgetting that a core group of them just won the 4 nations. The experience gained (win or lose) augers well for the RLWC coming up...
A lot had to eat their words not so long ago.
Kearney & co are the ones making the calls, it's their loss if this team doesn't perform - I'll be happy if they give it a bloody good go & you won't find me deathriding them. Go the Kiwis!
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,221
He does have the experience of picking on form above other considerations (he allowed SBW to bugger around then take Tohu's first cap because of the pulling power and fan pleaser aspect of that decision).

Those type of decisions (bending to fan pressure and a players status) back fired on him horribly, he nearly lost his job over the party culture of that playing group....it made him look weak and out of touch within his camp.

I don't disagree with your general comments around team culture, but don't talk BS to back up your point- SBW wasn't picked on "pulling power" he was picked because he was one of the best players in the world!

Bending to "fan pressure" (i.e. picking our best player) didn't "backfire horribly", SBW was probably our player of the World Cup!
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,466
I'd prefer The Last of the Mohicans to be honest.

Let me ask you this - are you ok with us losing a test series to England through lack of experience in the halves?

If you are, then this is where you and I differ as fan's. It's a risk not taking the best available players on tour and while I'm happy with Kearney's coaching record to this point I'm not happy to wear a series loss to England in the name of development (or to be honest personalities). Kearney is taking a gamble on the pack doing the job for him, and TBH it's a decent roll of the dice such is the form of the players in that pack, but it's still a gamble. I don't like gambling with the Kiwis.

Also, TBH I think team culture gets over done by coaches, by the media, by fans. Also, a good culture shouldn't be my way or the highway anyway.

Also, regarding your final point, if they can afford to take risks with their model then you'd think that including an in form, experienced half, who has modified his playing style since last in the team, who has made all the right noises about fitting in - would be an acceptable risk to take.
I wouldn't be happy with a series loss.
A lot of what drives my opinion is really stuck in the past when Kiwi sides used to really piss me off. Probably time to move on (they are my favorite team and I never missed a game...the thing I hated about them all these years was their failure to learn from the same mistakes).

I take your point about culture, it's a bit of a buzz word and people throw it around without substance.

I think the issue is quite complex, if you look at the very small sport that rugby league is in NZ, then add the lack of resources, then the way that our players are developed is always going to be behind the Aussie systems.

So it's more about systems than 'culture'. In truth a lot of recent success is down to players that have been trained in the Australian systems. Where we produce explosive athletes (generalisation) they develop endurance athletes (partly physiology, largely the intensity of competition from grass roots up that they get exposed to....and lastly coaching resources over there) Marshall is actually Aussie groomed himself (As a rugby league player).

The Apex of their systems is the SOO, that series is built on the psychology of the sport (defensive mentality, driving hard for eighty minutes, low errors etc....not necessarily the attacking side of the sport). Playing for your mates blah blah blah. Not trying to tell anyone how to suck eggs here, just pointing out why I think NZRL are 'culture' / systems driven now.

Rumor has it the Kangaoos (ironically) are a divided unit along Origin lines, so yeah there is two sides to every point of view.

You made a really good point about the Marshall situation (thought about that a fair bit and it's hard to argue that they should be able to make an exception if their model is sound).

In a way....not being able to bridge peace with Marshall reflects negatively on their model...you could say they aren't prepared to back themselves.

Perhaps Wayne Bennett needs to remind Kearney of one of his biggest coaching mistakes.

Alan Langer was let go because of Bennetts model of releasing players before they went into decline.

Bennett corrected that, perhaps Kearney et al need to look at that example, however Kearney is not Bennett (ones the greatest coach that ever lived the others Stephen Kearney).
 
Last edited:

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,466
I don't disagree with your general comments around team culture, but don't talk BS to back up your point- SBW wasn't picked on "pulling power" he was picked because he was one of the best players in the world!

Bending to "fan pressure" (i.e. picking our best player) didn't "backfire horribly", SBW was probably our player of the World Cup!
Mustn't have written that post very well, seems to have upset folk like trolling...never my intention.

Agreed SBW was our best player at the WC.

What i was actually on about was the stuff that went on off field.

Kearney lost control of that team.

In SBW's case....do you not think the off field distractions his ' will he won't he' mind games had a toll on the rest of them ?"

In my mind it sewed the seeds of a 'weak' coach. He should never have let the Jersey be manipulated by one person, i don't care who that player is.

He had already awarded that Jersey to someone else.

SBW is a talent, no question, but because of the global monster $$$ that he is (that hype can't exist without you and me...the fans) the pressure to pick him was greater than probably any other player (there is no one in either rugby code that has had world sports bodies fawn over them like him).

They bent the rules man. That's the truth, if it would have been anyone else they would have said...sorry mate you're a better player but we've named our team already....the games bigger than one individual....we can't be seen to wait for someone to change their mind (it's not a good look).

Think about what it would mean in players minds, today you are given the honor to represent, confirmed...pack your bags, well done son.....welcome aboard, we think you are the best at what you do....then SBW comes along. Across the board that will devalue the sense of achievement at being honored as a rep in the mind of every person in that team.

It's disloyal.

Kearney didn't have the respect of six players in that team, the ones who took pills, that was a huge failing on his part, my post was really about defending Kearneys stance to take a hard line with team selection....it's not rocket surgery to see why his attitude has changed so severely (that comment is not directed at you or anyone...it's just my firm opinion).
 
Last edited:

Matua

First Grade
Messages
5,212
I wouldn't be happy with a series loss.
A lot of what drives my opinion is really stuck in the past when Kiwi sides used to really piss me off. Probably time to move on (they are my favorite team and I never missed a game...the thing I hated about them all these years was their failure to learn from the same mistakes).

I take your point about culture, it's a bit of a buzz word and people throw it around without substance.

I think the issue is quite complex, if you look at the very small sport that rugby league is in NZ, then add the lack of resources, then the way that our players are developed is always going to be behind the Aussie systems.

So it's more about systems than 'culture'. In truth a lot of recent success is down to players that have been trained in the Australian systems. Where we produce explosive athletes (generalisation) they develop endurance athletes (partly physiology, largely the intensity of competition from grass roots up that they get exposed to....and lastly coaching resources over there) Marshall is actually Aussie groomed himself (As a rugby league player).

The Apex of their systems is the SOO, that series is built on the psychology of the sport (defensive mentality, driving hard for eighty minutes, low errors etc....not necessarily the attacking side of the sport). Playing for your mates blah blah blah. Not trying to tell anyone how to suck eggs here, just pointing out why I think NZRL are 'culture' / systems driven now.

Rumor has it the Kangaoos (ironically) are a divided unit along Origin lines, so yeah there is two sides to every point of view.

You made a really good point about the Marshall situation (thought about that a fair bit and it's hard to argue that they should be able to make an exception if their model is sound).

In a way....not being able to bridge peace with Marshall reflects negatively on their model...you could say they aren't prepared to back themselves.

Perhaps Wayne Bennett needs to remind Kearney of one of his biggest coaching mistakes.

Alan Langer was let go because of Bennetts model of releasing players before they went into decline.

Bennett corrected that, perhaps Kearney et al need to look at that example, however Kearney is not Bennett (ones the greatest coach that ever lived the others Stephen Kearney).
I think we've moved closer together on this - i.e. I think Kearney is a good coach (with a huge blindspot) and you think Benji should be there, we're nearly in the same place.

My big issue with players being left out for inferior players is that other teams I've been a fan of have done it in the past without success. John Mitchell's 2003 ABs left better players at home and were thumped out of the RWC and then the bald idiot cited a lack of experience. Rather than work with Ma'a Nonu, Mark Hammett booted him causing a ripple effect of top players who moved on and then it took until this year for the team to make the finals.
 
Last edited:

jaseg

Juniors
Messages
2,274
First team announced.. (for the game vs Leeds)

1. Roger Tuivasa-Sheck
2. Jason Nightingale
3. Jordan Kahu
4. Dean Whare
5. Shaun Kenny-Dowall
6. Peta Hiku
7. Tuimoala Lolohea
8. Jesse Bromwich
9. Isaac Luke
10. Ben Matulino
11. Kevin Proctor
12. Tohu Harris
13. Martin Taupau

14. Kodi Nikorima
15. Adam Blair
16. Sam Moa
17. Sio Siua Taukeiaho
18. Alex Glenn
19. Gerard Beale
20. Lewis Brown

http://rugbyleagueweek.com.au/kiwis-announce-side-face-leeds/

Initial thoughts; that forward pack is ludicrously good. Kodi not playing in the halves (questionable). Hiku named at 6 (meh, could do alright, but not expecting too much), Kahu playing centre (good). Co-captain Blair on the bench (good) and Alex Glenn outside the 17 (bad).

Hate to keep hammering on like this... but leaving Benji out for development reasons is so much bullcrap - Peta Hiku is not a legitimate option to play in the halves for the Kiwis in the future.
 

spear tackle

Juniors
Messages
1,176
I just saw on the Sky website Kiwis V Leeds on Sky sport 2 Saturday from 7.45am, even though its not listed yet on the guide.
 

Matua

First Grade
Messages
5,212
First team announced.. (for the game vs Leeds)

1. Roger Tuivasa-Sheck
2. Jason Nightingale
3. Jordan Kahu
4. Dean Whare
5. Shaun Kenny-Dowall
6. Peta Hiku
7. Tuimoala Lolohea
8. Jesse Bromwich
9. Isaac Luke
10. Ben Matulino
11. Kevin Proctor
12. Tohu Harris
13. Martin Taupau

14. Kodi Nikorima
15. Adam Blair
16. Sam Moa
17. Sio Siua Taukeiaho
18. Alex Glenn
19. Gerard Beale
20. Lewis Brown

http://rugbyleagueweek.com.au/kiwis-announce-side-face-leeds/

Initial thoughts; that forward pack is ludicrously good. Kodi not playing in the halves (questionable). Hiku named at 6 (meh, could do alright, but not expecting too much), Kahu playing centre (good). Co-captain Blair on the bench (good) and Alex Glenn outside the 17 (bad).

Hate to keep hammering on like this... but leaving Benji out for development reasons is so much bullcrap - Peta Hiku is not a legitimate option to play in the halves for the Kiwis in the future.
Agree fully, it is so stupid.
 

Latest posts

Top