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Laurie Daley trying to ruin rugby league.

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
I don't know about that, I can understand some areas maybe wanting to have their own representation separate from the nation that they are officially part of, similar to the situation in the UK.

Obviously I'm not actually suggesting that any of these teams should exist (or that any of them ever will), just stating that I wouldn't have a problem with them existing if those areas could support a competitive team on their own and wanted one for reasonable geopolitical and/or historic reasons.
For example I'd have no problem with an Iroquois team like in lacrosse, or if Hawaii wanted independent representation from the US and could support a competitive team I probably wouldn't have a problem with that either (under the right circumstances), Catalans being separate from France and Spain is another that I would support (again under the right circumstances).

I'd even be fine with an Aboriginal or Maori tribe/confederacy of tribes (I know no such confederacy exists at least in the case of Aboriginal tribes) having their own team if they could support it.

However I have serious, serious problems with racialist teams that people are only eligible for based on race, I'm even uncomfortable with the Indigenous All stars if I'm honest.
Agree with your last comment. Surely the very selection of an Indigenous team is itself racist? Is there any team in Australia selected from purely white Anglo Saxons?
 

clarency

Juniors
Messages
1,206
Agree with your last comment. Surely the very selection of an Indigenous team is itself racist? Is there any team in Australia selected from purely white Anglo Saxons?

Well all national teams discriminate based on nationality, obviously. The indigenous side would be discriminating based on membership of the indigenous tribes of Australia, and considering the Aus government acknowledges indigenous status up to 1/16th I have no doubt there will be some white people in the team. Daniel Geale is an infamous example, especially when he fought Anthony Mundine wearing the aboriginal flag.

I don't have any problem with an Indigenous team; most people don't. They have been playing exhibition matches for quite some time now and are quite popular. From what I understand they are great platforms for aboriginal community engagement and are a great way to connect with disenfranchised teen boys, who are at the greatest risk of going off the rails.

I think Indigenous team needs more game time, perhaps in a touring Australia capacity. I doubt they will appear in the world cup ever.
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
Well all national teams discriminate based on nationality, obviously. The indigenous side would be discriminating based on membership of the indigenous tribes of Australia, and considering the Aus government acknowledges indigenous status up to 1/16th I have no doubt there will be some white people in the team. Daniel Geale is an infamous example, especially when he fought Anthony Mundine wearing the aboriginal flag.

I don't have any problem with an Indigenous team; most people don't. They have been playing exhibition matches for quite some time now and are quite popular. From what I understand they are great platforms for aboriginal community engagement and are a great way to connect with disenfranchised teen boys, who are at the greatest risk of going off the rails.

I think Indigenous team needs more game time, perhaps in a touring Australia capacity. I doubt they will appear in the world cup ever.
Thanks for the response. Obviously I'm viewing this from a long distance and don't fully understand the issues involved. Apologies to all if my previous post seemed insensitive.
 
Messages
4,872
Agree with your last comment. Surely the very selection of an Indigenous team is itself racist? Is there any team in Australia selected from purely white Anglo Saxons?

I can't think of one, if it did happen it'd be front page news across the country, it'd probably make international news too.

However I can think of plenty examples of the reverse, the Redfern All Blacks are probably the most famous example, the Koori and Murri knockouts are aboriginal exclusive, in Canberra you have the Boomanulla Raiders, I'm sure there're more, all of them are exclusive to people with aboriginal heritage.

Well all national teams discriminate based on nationality, obviously.

Nationality and race are two very different things, race is inherent you are born with it and you can't control or change it, nationality can be changed and controlled and is connected to where you live and your ideological beliefs (obviously it's not and can't be that simple in international sports for practicality reasons, but the point still stands).

If I wanted to become a Pommy I could move to England and attempt the process of becoming a citizen of the UK, on the other hand if I wanted to become an Eskimo I can't, cause I can't change my genetic makeup to make myself an Eskimo.

So discriminating based on nationality is inherently more reasonable (under the right circumstances) then discriminating based on race cause it can be controlled by the individual and race can't.

The indigenous side would be discriminating based on membership of the indigenous tribes of Australia, and considering the Aus government acknowledges indigenous status up to 1/16th I have no doubt there will be some white people in the team. Daniel Geale is an infamous example, especially when he fought Anthony Mundine wearing the aboriginal flag.

Except every indigenous team I have any knowledge about isn't discriminating based on membership of mobs, for example Boomanulla isn't only letting Ngunnawal play in their team, it isn't a Ngunnawal national team, they're letting anybody with aboriginal heritage in and nobody else.
Hell I'd be surprised if more then half the Indigenous All stars actually held memberships of a mob (before becoming part of the NRL and/or the Indigenous All stars at least) or actually knew which mob they are from, most of them just claim they are from the mob that is from the area of Australia that they are born and have never attended a meeting or anything in their lives, I'd be willing to bet that if we did genetic testing of the team that many of them, if not most, wouldn't be genetically related to the mob they think they are from.

It's purely race based who is and who isn't picked for the team, another evidence for that is that in theory you can marry into a tribe, yet I doubt that a player with completely Caucasian or Polynesian heritage that's marry into a mob would ever, ever, be allowed to play for the Indigenous All Stars, and if they were the screams of racism would be huge (and the irony of those screams would be lost on the people doing the screaming) so it's not about being members of tribes it's about race.

I don't have any problem with an Indigenous team; most people don't. They have been playing exhibition matches for quite some time now and are quite popular. From what I understand they are great platforms for aboriginal community engagement and are a great way to connect with disenfranchised teen boys, who are at the greatest risk of going off the rails.

I think Indigenous team needs more game time, perhaps in a touring Australia capacity. I doubt they will appear in the world cup ever.

I don't know, maybe it's just because I have a better then usual understanding of human history then your average punter, and I'm old enough to have seen some of the most important people in history that lead to some terrible habits that humans have changing, maybe that's why I don't like it, cause it is completely antithetical to what those changes and the people who pushed for them most stood for.

Maybe because of my better then usual understanding of human history I also realise that it's seemingly little things like this that'll lead us back down a dangerous road of tribalism based on stupid insignificant things like skin colour.

Whatever it is, I can't justify a race exclusive anything as it's inherently discriminatory to other races and that is always wrong no matter which race it is that you are discriminating against.
It also sets an incredibly dangerous precedent, a dangerous precedent that hundreds of thousands of people fought for hundreds if not thousands of years to change, and we're completely undoing all of that work in under a generation. Then again maybe those people never really succeeded in changing those attitudes in some groups and only unwittingly succeeded in creating an opening for people to walk into and attempt to reverse the status quo in western countries.

It seems to me that we are still judging people by the colour of their skin instead of their character, it's just that we are negatively judging different people with different skin colours then we used to, and that has always, and will always never sit well with me.
 
Messages
4,872
Thanks for the response. Obviously I'm viewing this from a long distance and don't fully understand the issues involved. Apologies to all if my previous post seemed insensitive.

Your previous post wasn't insensitive, and even you were insensitive it would have been coming from an innocent place there would have been nothing malicious in it, you'd have nothing to apologise for.
 

clarency

Juniors
Messages
1,206
Nationality and race are two very different things, race is inherent you are born with it and you can't control or change it, nationality can be changed and controlled and is connected to where you live and your ideological beliefs (obviously it's not and can't be that simple in international sports for practicality reasons, but the point still stands).

So discriminating based on nationality is inherently more reasonable (under the right circumstances) then discriminating based on race cause it can be controlled by the individual and race can't.

Yes they are different things, obviously. Though you refuted yourself in your own post when you admitted that people can marry into tribes. As I said in my previous post, white folk are perfectly capable of holding aboriginal status; I know at least a dozen of them. It appears that you are the one urgently drawing lines between skin colour (as many others do).

Except every indigenous team I have any knowledge about isn't discriminating based on membership of mobs, for example Boomanulla isn't only letting Ngunnawal play in their team, it isn't a Ngunnawal national team, they're letting anybody with aboriginal heritage in and nobody else.
Hell I'd be surprised if more then half the Indigenous All stars actually held memberships of a mob (before becoming part of the NRL and/or the Indigenous All stars at least) or actually knew which mob they are from, most of them just claim they are from the mob that is from the area of Australia that they are born and have never attended a meeting or anything in their lives, I'd be willing to bet that if we did genetic testing of the team that many of them, if not most, wouldn't be genetically related to the mob they think they are from.

Probably true at present. And that was exactly the case with the Maori All Blacks side as well. At least that was the case in the past. Today all Maori All Blacks have verified Maori whakapapa before putting on the jersey. That's how it works there, there is no reason why it wouldn't work here.

BTW: Take a look at some photos of the Maori All Blacks and tell me it's a team based on skin colour.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...gC&biw=1366&bih=615#imgrc=_&spf=1512425491707

I don't know, maybe it's just because I have a better then usual understanding of human history then your average punter, and I'm old enough to have seen some of the most important people in history that lead to some terrible habits that humans have changing, maybe that's why I don't like it, cause it is completely antithetical to what those changes and the people who pushed for them most stood for.

Maybe because of my better then usual understanding of human history I also realise that it's seemingly little things like this that'll lead us back down a dangerous road of tribalism based on stupid insignificant things like skin colour.

If any of what you're saying is true then people would have protested against the Indigenous All Stars rugby league team. That didn't happen. Of course there were some journalists looking to make sensationalised articles, but the team was and is universally praised by fans everywhere. Not to mention it started by Indigenous Australians!

It seems to me that we are still judging people by the colour of their skin instead of their character, it's just that we are negatively judging different people with different skin colours then we used to, and that has always, and will always never sit well with me.

I don't want to sound like a judgemental prick, but the only person judging skin colour here is you.

I think people in this country don't truly understand what it means when it is said that Aboriginals were/are "Second class citizens". It's not just talking about their rights. If you actually took some time to think what it might be like for Aboriginals in this country AND talked to some of them, you would know that the biggest problem they face is disenfranchisement with their own culture. Australian society has inadvertently taught them to be ashamed of their culture and as a result many have distanced themselves from their history and (as you said) aren't aware of what tribe they belong to. One of the things Kurtley Beale cited as a turning point in his life was when he took the time to actually learn about his ancestry, which he did well into adulthood! An indigenous side isn't about categorising people into skin colour, I have given you more than enough examples to show that is not the case.

An indigenous side is about saying the indigenous culture is nothing to be ashamed of. It should be celebrated, and embraced as part of our history. Stop being afraid of it and bring it into the spotlight. It will have a great positive effect on society as a whole.
 
Messages
4,872
Yes they are different things, obviously. Though you refuted yourself in your own post when you admitted that people can marry into tribes. As I said in my previous post, white folk are perfectly capable of holding aboriginal status; I know at least a dozen of them. It appears that you are the one urgently drawing lines between skin colour (as many others do).

Probably true at present. And that was exactly the case with the Maori All Blacks side as well. At least that was the case in the past. Today all Maori All Blacks have verified Maori whakapapa before putting on the jersey. That's how it works there, there is no reason why it wouldn't work here.

BTW: Take a look at some photos of the Maori All Blacks and tell me it's a team based on skin colour.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...gC&biw=1366&bih=615#imgrc=_&spf=1512425491707


If any of what you're saying is true then people would have protested against the Indigenous All Stars rugby league team. That didn't happen. Of course there were some journalists looking to make sensationalised articles, but the team was and is universally praised by fans everywhere. Not to mention it started by Indigenous Australians!

I don't want to sound like a judgemental prick, but the only person judging skin colour here is you.

I think people in this country don't truly understand what it means when it is said that Aboriginals were/are "Second class citizens". It's not just talking about their rights. If you actually took some time to think what it might be like for Aboriginals in this country AND talked to some of them, you would know that the biggest problem they face is disenfranchisement with their own culture. Australian society has inadvertently taught them to be ashamed of their culture and as a result many have distanced themselves from their history and (as you said) aren't aware of what tribe they belong to. One of the things Kurtley Beale cited as a turning point in his life was when he took the time to actually learn about his ancestry, which he did well into adulthood! An indigenous side isn't about categorising people into skin colour, I have given you more than enough examples to show that is not the case.

An indigenous side is about saying the indigenous culture is nothing to be ashamed of. It should be celebrated, and embraced as part of our history. Stop being afraid of it and bring it into the spotlight. It will have a great positive effect on society as a whole.

After reading your post I'm pretty sure that you didn't actually read my post, just skimmed it and and filled in the gaps with what you expected that I was saying from there, or if you did read it you didn't understand it any of it...

So I'm gonna go real simple here in a the hopes that you wont misunderstand again-
The Indigenous All Stars (and other teams like them) will only allow people that can prove they have ancestry of a specific race (in the cases we are talking about either Maori or Indigenous Australian) to play in their teams (not people that are members of tribes, e.g. they wont allow a person with no indigenous heritage that has married to an indigenous tribe to play for them), inherent in that policy is discrimination based on race, they are discriminating against people based on the fact that they have no indigenous ancestry, in other words they are discriminating based on the fact that they do not have any ancestry of their preferred race, discrimination based on race is the definition of racism.

So whether it is seen as a positive thing or not the Indigenous All Stars (and other teams like them) by their very nature must be and are a racialist organisation that discriminates based on race, and I personally am not comfortable with that no matter the perceived positive outcomes, because I know from what history shows us what a dangerous path that is to walk down.

BTW, I find it very ironic that you are suggesting that I'm racist when I'm the one who is holding a policy of zero tolerance towards racism and you at least seem to be suggesting that racism is alright so long as it isn't directed towards certain groups who need to be protected by it.
 

siv

Bench
Messages
4,991
Daley's been smoking crack.

Only countries should be in the World Cup. Not even a merged side like the West Indies.

The future for the Indigenous side is to play a Pacific All Stars side. Play it on the Friday before the Grand Final and it will rate 2.5-3.5 million nationally. It will become a new Origin.

Agree Fri before GF but v NZ Maori

But it may clash with Koori knockout over long weekend
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
10,390
Agree Fri before GF but v NZ Maori

But it may clash with Koori knockout over long weekend

It likely requires mutual discussion but there's a lot of attention that can be gained by hosting it on the biggest weekend of the year.

It can work with a Maori side too but I think that incorporating Maori players into an Islanders team casts a wider net.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
10,390
I have no problem with Indigenous, Islander, Maori or any minority race based team because no player has ever said "I'm white and I'm offended that I can't play for the Indigenous team".

I don't think you should be allowed to have a grievance on behalf of people who don't exist.
 
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