Lockyer > Johns: no contest

[ANTiLAG]

2000- He only missed game 1 and the halfback spot due to injury.

Well that is highly debatable given Kimmorley winning the premiership the year before, in great form and NSW failures the two previous years with Joey at the helm.

However, sticking to absolute facts.

1995 DROPPED
2000 BENCHED

 

[Big Pete]

They were such a dominant side they could win a game with a llama like Finch in the side.

No, they couldn't.

They almost lost to a Queensland side with Flannery at five eigth as well.

---------------------------------------------
I don't think the notion of Thurston being the best halfback is as preposterous as some of you are making it out to be.

JT has a broad skill-set that is often exemplified by his competitive nature and is often causing NSW headaches around the fringes. He's been a tremendous performer for Queensland and his ability to apply the knock out blow is second to none.

However, I don't believe JT really guides the side.

Neither does Lockyer either.

No one leads Queensland more than Smith. Queensland tend to play through the middle of the ruck and when an opportunity presents itself Smith will give either Thurston or Lockyer the ball in an ideal scenario and either Thurston will do his best to set his centre up or Lockyer will set up an overlap by using a third man play. In saying, I don't believe Thurston guides the side as much as some would have you believe.

With that said, while Thurston is playing with a great side, don't let that stop you from giving him the praise he so richly deserves. I mean this is Origin, shouldn't he be surrounded by the best? And it's not like Johns ever tasted success with bad team mates or against mediocre opposition, 1997 anyone?

And even then, NSW aren't as bad as some have made them out to be.

Where do I rank Thurston? It's hard to give a concrete answer without having seen all of Johns' performances but from what I saw of Joey, JT by 1-2 performances in this arena. That doesn't mean I rate JT as a better player, but as a better representative of his respective state.

 

[perverse]

And even then, NSW aren't as bad as some have made them out to be.

i won't touch the rest of what you're saying (agree with most of it anyway)... i'm trying to ween myself off this thread.

however you don't really think this NSW team has been that bad? how many greats of the game, in the prime of their careers, would you say NSW have had over the past 5 years? hell, how many greats even in the twilight of their careers have we had in the past 5 years?

i think this NSW team has been every bit as shocking as made out to be, even to the point that it makes it hard to say that this QLD team is the best origin team ever assembled (it's the best i've ever seen, but i was a bit young to judge the mid-90's and earlier teams... and i know there has been debate around these traps in the past on this very topic). certainly the most dominant and successful... but they have been dominant and successful against a really bloody poor team.

to be honest - and i have said this exact thing in other threads over the past few years - the real shame about this current QLD side is they may never have a team worthy of genuinely competing against them to see just how far they could be pushed. NSW just isn't pumping out these top tier players at the moment, for reasons unknown. QLD's development has just been better. the ebb and flow will inevitably shift, and NSW will eventually rise to compete again (or QLD will slide to our level, whichever comes first)... but this current team may never be tested to it's fullest. 08 was close... but you look at each team, and it's hard to see where NSW competed that year. on paper it looks like the loss of Lockyer really lowered the QLD team... but i'm not sure it's that simple either, and without going over the videos of each match again i'm not really sure i could put a reason on it one way or another.

 

[Big Pete]

Brett Stewart, Jarryd Hayne, Mark Gasnier, Willie Mason, Danny Buderus, Nathan Hindmarsh were all great players.

And NSW certainly fielded some very good players too in there time.

So they certainly fielded some quality players.

I would agree if you said they haven't fielded any quality halves. And it's a good point to raise.

 

[ANTiLAG]

No, they couldn't.

They almost lost to a Queensland side with Flannery at five eigth as well.

"Could win" not "did win". No they didn't win in 04 - but they very easily could win in 04 with a llama like Finch. Finch was in a winning team in game 1 '06 - and in '04 there were 4 points in it at Suncorp including Slater's "Miracle" try.

My point was to counter the whole Thurston plays for such a dominant team ingores Thurston came into a dominanted side that was causing "Origin to be dead".

However, your I think view of JT's achievments is at least reasonable.

 

[TheDalek079]

Joey is much better. all this lockyer tripe is just qlders trying to feel important.

 

[perverse]

Brett Stewart, Jarryd Hayne, Mark Gasnier, Willie Mason, Danny Buderus, Nathan Hindmarsh were all great players.

And NSW certainly fielded some very good players too in there time.

So they certainly fielded some quality players.

I would agree if you said they haven't fielded any quality halves. And it's a good point to raise.

out of all the names you've mentioned, the only ones i'd agree with at this point would be Stewart - although more on promise and potential than anything he ever actually provided NSW... he may have had one or 2 really good games for NSW but sadly his career will remain unfulfilled, Gaz definitely, Mason (when in the mood) and Buderus is easily the top pick of all of them... although he was fading (yet still far better than his alternatives, as proven after he left).

Hindmarsh is really just a great first grader with a big engine.

don't even get me started on Hayne. prima donna to the maximum. i've seen pets that fit in cages with more heart than this bloke.

it's hardly the list that QLD have boasted over the same time period.
Petero
Price
Smith
Lockyer
Thurston
Inglis
Folau
Slater
Hunt
Prince
Cronk
Thaiday
Hodges

and f**k.. that's just literally off the top of my head without looking at a single team list. all of these blokes have been in stellar form and their careers have been peaking at the same time. a very good portion of this list will be remembered as greats of their era. the level of skill relative to NSW has been so astoundingly high. it really has. i'm not sure that, in the history of origin, has there been such a stark difference and contrast in skill completely across the board.

and yeah, NSW are going through as much of a post-joey pain period as the knights are. funnily enough i don't think QLD will suffer a similar post-Locky period... but i would atest that far more to the quality of player ready to step into his shoes moreso than any slight or discredit to his own influence. they have done the right thing, bringing Cronk in now.

 

[Big Pete]

Regardless you were trying to make NSW out as a dominant side. They weren't. They were pushed into Golden Point against a side without it's captain, with a rookie halfback and a backrow playing at five eigth. By your definition, Queensland could have beat NSW with a rooster like Chris Flannery.

And I'm happy with your I think agreement Laggy.

 

[Big Pete]

Hayne was the Dally M medal winner and arguably the most talked about player, why doesn't he qualify?

Hindmarsh again was always considered as one of the best backrows in the game.

 

[perverse]

additionally, i credit the dominance in the middle of the field far more for QLD's extreme stranglehold on origin of the past 5 years. it makes me sick how little credit Petero and Price (and now Shillington, Scott and Thaiday to a lesser extent) are getting for this period of dominance. it's so much easier for a set of halves to look brilliant behind the amazing go-forward these blokes are providing (and denying NSW, too).

fortunately i think the selectors are starting to finally cotton onto this fact with Mannah and Snowdens selections tonight.

 

[perverse]

Hayne was the Dally M medal winner and arguably the most talked about player, why doesn't he qualify?

Hindmarsh again was always considered as one of the best backrows in the game.

Hayne - because aside from a few flashes in the pan the bloke has had nothing. his highlight reel looks good, but it's everything in between that should really define a player. i'm sorry, i just don't rate him that highly... and he wouldn't be playing fullback if i was a selector tonight.

having said that, i do hope he puts a bit of egg on my face tonight. i don't think he will, though... and 1 great game (or 6 months of good form) does not a great player make. he's all potential and hype and athleticism, but not much else imo.

look, Hindy is a champion in his own right, but he's not a Ben Kennedy or even a current form Sam Thaiday. he's a slogger. he's all heart, and he's certainly the kind of bloke you want in your team for any number of reasons. breaking a game open or actually winning you an origin match isn't one of those reasons, though. he doesn't offer that much more than a bloke like David Stagg aside from intangibles like heart etc.

 

[Big Pete]

Uh...what?

Was I dreaming when I saw him score all those tries in 2006 and spark a mini-revival at the Eels?

Or when he won the Brad Fittler medal in 2007 and was again among the Eels best?

2009 was a great year for him too, but you've acknowledged that.

An indifferent 2010 (he's had more than one great game mind you) and mediocre 2008 doesn't stop Hayne from being recognised as a great player.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Regardless you were trying to make NSW out as a dominant side. They weren't. They were pushed into Golden Point against a side without it's captain, with a rookie halfback and a backrow playing at five eigth. By your definition, Queensland could have beat NSW with a rooster like Chris Flannery.

And I'm happy with your I think agreement Laggy.

Almost. Often Qld did win with that rooster Flannery but never as a five eigth. Finch actually won a game at least. Howver in that Flannery five eigth game NSW had some shoddy halves. NSW would have done a lot better in that game if they had someone better than Gower such as Barrett or even Kimmorley defintely Orford. I have NEVER EVER RATED GOWER as a halfback. Prince v Gower cancelled out Flannery v Timmins. Flannery was still consistently average in any position in my view. 04 was no exception. But, the dominant point goes further than merely just 03/04 Pete. Joey walked into a dominant NSW team throughout the 90's and choked.

95
98
99
02

When Thurston came into the Qld side they had not won for a couple of years - (three if you include a draw which I do not). Also - that rookie halfback pushing them into golden point on his debut? Who was that person again? JT per chance? Far better debut into a side that had not won a series in a while than Joey who lost the series that could not be lost.

I do not agree with you Pete. I said think your view is at least reasonable. Smith is a good player - did some superb plays last game -but Thurston would go alright outside Ballin.

Thurston is one of those guys who seeks the glory and often delivers the decisive match winning blow. Other criticise him as "impatient" when he goes for the decisive blow and Qld lose. When its tight - he wants the ball - he wants to make the play. He is a big game player. Thurston pulls it off more often than he does not. That is what really has me stuck on his brilliance. He thrives on the atmosphere, clearly. He loves the pressure. You can see the excitement when he pulls off the pressure play well and the agony when he does not. But make no mistake - he delivers far more often than he does not - despite you labelling him as "impatient."

He has come into a side which had not won in years - was part of it when "origin was dead" and has really stepped up into becomming a sublime player. The best halfback thus far in origin in my view.

 

[ANTiLAG]

it's so much easier for a set of halves to look brilliant behind the amazing go-forward these blokes are providing.

Yet you do not acknowledge the NSW pack of the 90's which Joey did not look brilliant behind.

 

[knaus]

you have to remember lockyer has always played in only good sides. broncos, qld, australia. its easy to look good in those sides.

put johns in that qld team they win by 30+ every game.

johns seasons were quite often cut short by injury. lockyer on the other hand has been quite lucky with injuries.

at their peaks - johns > lockyer - no question

however, through lockyers luck with injury, (and the fact that he doesnt tackle like johns did) and his luck in the forward packs he is behind. lockyers career looks better.
talent wise tho its johns over lockyer easily

 

[jarro]

Locky owns Johns, no question.

 

[kickback]

when has Johns ever kicked a field goal like locky did tonight even playing for newcastle, he was the difference johns never had it, locky you are the champion

 

[macnaz]

For total accumulated influence over 15 years ... (talking positive influence here), there is now no contest.

Lockyer ... total team man ... makes other look great ... humble leader ... orchestrates with precision and skill ...

Daylight and then Johns.

Cue Johns worshipers.

Dumb post!
I am never a fan of making comparisons between 2 players especialy when they arent currently playing against each other or they come from differant era's. I think they were both great players and in Darrens case he still is, but u have to keep in mind that Johns's career finnished a lot earlier than it needed to due to injury so we could never judge what his later day influence would have been like. If they were both available to play for Australia today it would be Lockyer 6 & Johns 7 and Thurston to be the one left out.

 

[Apey]

when has Johns ever kicked a field goal like locky did tonight even playing for newcastle, he was the difference johns never had it, locky you are the champion

:lol: top post.