Mal: "We're playing the right amount of games"

[yakstorm]

They put out some quotes and Wales did some social around GB, but overall the other home nations didn't do much to support it.

In fairness to them, the WRL, SRL and RLI couldn't really afford to criticise it. From a player perspective, if the Tour had been successful it would have been a carrot those leagues could have used to help players stay loyal to Wales, Ireland & Scotland and not supporting it may have seen some players who are 50:50 just align completely with England, whilst each of those three leagues can't afford to be on the RFL's bad side either.

 

[PARRA_FAN]

Ah the State of Origin myth rears its head again.
Reality - most SOO players play *less* games overall. Miss the NRL game the week before and most take the week off after.

International Rugby League will never progress with this ridiculous attitude. You'd think the coach of all people would want to be playing more games.
Player workload could be managed with a large, rotating squad but it's easier to just not bother at all.

Comments like this are what make me cheer against the Kangaroos. Until they are repeatedly disrespected by the opposition, the ARL will not act.

There lies the problem.

They said they want to bring back the passion in the Kangaroos never do anything about it. We've basically gone backwards here in Australia with our attitude towards test football.

Its the highest honor representing your country but nowadays players would rather commit to Origin and club football.

Years ago in the 80s and 90s the International calender was quite strong for Kangaroos. Mid year test series against the Kiwis one year then the Ashes the next, followed by the odd test against PNG or France.

It was so good back then, I remember as a kid, used to sneak into the lounge room in the middle of the night and watch the test matches in England.

After SL there wasnt a lot of competition for Australia so dominant with the likes of Fittler, Johns, Lockyer, Webcke, Sailor but still played more tests than they did now.

I was glad they brought back the Ashes for a bit then brought in the Tri Nations between us, Kiwis and the Poms. Every year there would be at least 1 or 2 end of year test matches. Even during the "rest" year they would have 2 tests

It tells you how backwards it gone, we played a test against New Zealand at a 19,000 capacity stadium in Wollongong. No disrespect to Wollongong, good on those fans for turning up but years ago this test wouldve played at a much bigger venue.

I guess thats where we're heading in Australia. Little interest in these games.

It wouldve great to have a 4 nations between us, NZL, GB or Eng and Tonga.

 

[Springs09]

It's only very recently we've gone so backwards. Obviously SL f**ked us up but in the mid-2000s there was a big effort to get international footy back - in 2004 we brought in the Tri-Nations but Australia also played 7 post-season tests! 2 v NZ, 3 v GB, 1 v France and 1 v USA. Combined with the ANZAC Test there is 8 tests for the year and a proper international calendar.

Australia played 7 tests in 2005 and 6 in 2006 before the big effort to expand again starting with the 2008 World Cup which had very good crowds. Afterwards with the Four Nations we played less tests but still more than now and there were big efforts to expand. 2014 we got 47,000 at Suncorp for a test v NZ, 2019 we get 18k at Wollongong.

It was only with the rubbish scheduling and the poor attitude of both the organisers and the fans with the 2017 World Cup that we've started noticeably going backwards. Before then we were looking up. Now we got this Oceania Cup shit and 2 tests per year with teams arguing about not wanting to play each other.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

We have already seen the Kangaroos' ranking affected by lack of matches, they may have to be content with 2nd or 3rd ranking moving forward. I would if they are consistently in these ranking spots though, that is what will get them playing more matches. Another positive spin-off of the growth of the international game.

 

[adamkungl]

It's only very recently we've gone so backwards. Obviously SL f**ked us up but in the mid-2000s there was a big effort to get international footy back - in 2004 we brought in the Tri-Nations but Australia also played 7 post-season tests! 2 v NZ, 3 v GB, 1 v France and 1 v USA. Combined with the ANZAC Test there is 8 tests for the year and a proper international calendar.

Australia played 7 tests in 2005 and 6 in 2006 before the big effort to expand again starting with the 2008 World Cup which had very good crowds. Afterwards with the Four Nations we played less tests but still more than now and there were big efforts to expand. 2014 we got 47,000 at Suncorp for a test v NZ, 2019 we get 18k at Wollongong.

It was only with the rubbish scheduling and the poor attitude of both the organisers and the fans with the 2017 World Cup that we've started noticeably going backwards. Before then we were looking up. Now we got this Oceania Cup shit and 2 tests per year with teams arguing about not wanting to play each other.

Ending the 4 Nations in 2016 was a big mistake.
I suspect it was tied to the new TV deal and the RLPA.

The dopey ARLC engineered themselves a situation where individual tests were given away for free, they could only sell tournaments, they ended the only tournament they could sell, and it cost close to half a Mil just to put the Kangaroos on the park.

I strongly believe that the IRL so called "Continental Cup" forever pencilled for cycle year 2 (2023, 2027) should basically be a revival of the 4 Nations, but with a 2nd pool.

This year we would have had
Cup: Australia, New Zealand, England, Tonga.
Shield: Samoa, PNG, Fiji, France
Would have, could have, should have been great.

2021 World Cup
22 Oceania Cup
23 IRL Cup
24 Oceania Cup
25 World Cup
26 Oceania Cup
27 IRL Cup
28 Oceania Cup
29 World Cup

 

[Springs09]

Ending the Four Nations was certainly a mistake in hindsight, compared to what's replaced it the last few years. I was excited originally, as the Four Nations has limited growth opportunities. Tours have a lot more potential in both more Tier 1 v Tier 1 games (3-test series) and Tier 1 v Tier 2 games (tour matches), but of course, we didn't get that, we got little pissant tours and nothing tournaments that no one gets excited for.

All this year needed was an Aus v GB game and a final and we have a Four Nations tournament. How hard would that have been? An easy sell as well with people actually having an idea what's going on.

I'm hoping whatever the other IRL event has 2 equal pools, not a big fan of the 2-tier system, it gives the lower tier games but not much in the way of opportunity. Also invites silly double-headers as one's a 'lesser' game like PNG v Fiji in Christchurch.

Pool A - Australia, England, Fiji, Lebanon
Pool B - New Zealand, Tonga, France, Ireland
Or similar

With tours, surely we can have a better system so we can afford to play more games? Something like say, Australia can select a 30-man squad and each get paid $50,000 for the tour or something? Surely we don't have to pay Australian players 20 or 30 grand a match to represent their country. Another question - what about the players who currently go on tour and don't play a game, do they not get paid at all?

I'd like to know who brought in this attitude of we get a 6-weeks all-expenses paid holiday to the other side of the world with the opportunity to represent your country on the biggest stage in the sport you love, but we want $30k per game as well or we don't want to do it. Where does this entitlement among elite players come from? It's like the Sam Burgess somehow deserves $3 million for not playing rugby league situation.

 

[Arucard]

Ending the 4 Nations in 2016 was a big mistake.
I suspect it was tied to the new TV deal and the RLPA.

The dopey ARLC engineered themselves a situation where individual tests were given away for free, they could only sell tournaments, they ended the only tournament they could sell, and it cost close to half a Mil just to put the Kangaroos on the park.

I strongly believe that the IRL so called "Continental Cup" forever pencilled for cycle year 2 (2023, 2027) should basically be a revival of the 4 Nations, but with a 2nd pool.

This year we would have had
Cup: Australia, New Zealand, England, Tonga.
Shield: Samoa, PNG, Fiji, France
Would have, could have, should have been great.

2021 World Cup
22 Oceania Cup
23 IRL Cup
24 Oceania Cup
25 World Cup
26 Oceania Cup
27 IRL Cup
28 Oceania Cup
29 World Cup

basically world cup quarter finals every year.

 

[siv]

Ending the 4 Nations in 2016 was a big mistake.
I suspect it was tied to the new TV deal and the RLPA.

The dopey ARLC engineered themselves a situation where individual tests were given away for free, they could only sell tournaments, they ended the only tournament they could sell, and it cost close to half a Mil just to put the Kangaroos on the park.

I strongly believe that the IRL so called "Continental Cup" forever pencilled for cycle year 2 (2023, 2027) should basically be a revival of the 4 Nations, but with a 2nd pool.

This year we would have had
Cup: Australia, New Zealand, England, Tonga.
Shield: Samoa, PNG, Fiji, France
Would have, could have, should have been great.

2021 World Cup
22 Oceania Cup
23 IRL Cup
24 Oceania Cup
25 World Cup
26 Oceania Cup
27 IRL Cup
28 Oceania Cup
29 World Cup

When are the RLWC Qualifiers ?

 

[adamkungl]

basically world cup quarter finals every year.

You want your best nations playing each other annually
Union has the Rugby Championship and the 6 Nations - same nations every year.
We can improve on that by have P&R and rotating nations in and out as they deserve

A typical cycle might have top tier tournaments of

World Cup Semis - Australia, England, Tonga, Fiji
Oceania Cup - Australia, New Zealand, Tonga, Fiji + European Cup - England, France, Wales, Ireland
IRL Cup - Australia, New Zealand, England, Tonga
Oceania Cup - Australia, New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa + European Cup - England, France, Ireland, Italy

and depending on how the years pan out, the next iterations might have different nations again. Will Tonga stay #4? Will England even stay #3? Maybe France will finally have a resurgence..
The system adapts to all things.

When are the RLWC Qualifiers ?

During the same period.
I'm talking about tournaments for the top few ranked nations, who are already qualified for the next World Cup.

@Springs09
The real difficulty here is fitting in tours/3-match series'
They've basically committed to bi-annual regional cups for the forseeable future.

So the 2 options are:
- Scrap the idea of the Continental IRL Cup and have year 2 designated as a tour year
Means IRL loses a potential property which could be major source of income.
Means if Australia, England and New Zealand alternated touring, it would be once every 12 years.

- Tour years overlap with Regional Cup years
Means the touring nation either skips their regional tournament,
or enters their A-team.

As i've mentioned a million times elsewhere, the touring nations entering A-teams in regionals is my preferred option. Obviously we're a while away from Australia playing any reasonable amount of tests let alone doing it on both sides of the world, but from a whole of game approach it's the best plan.

 

[Arucard]

You want your best nations playing each other annually
Union has the Rugby Championship and the 6 Nations - same nations every year.
We can improve on that by have P&R and rotating nations in and out as they deserve

A typical cycle might have top tier tournaments of

World Cup Semis - Australia, England, Tonga, Fiji
Oceania Cup - Australia, New Zealand, Tonga, Fiji + European Cup - England, France, Wales, Ireland
IRL Cup - Australia, New Zealand, England, Tonga
Oceania Cup - Australia, New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa + European Cup - England, France, Ireland, Italy

and depending on how the years pan out, the next iterations might have different nations again. Will Tonga stay #4? Will England even stay #3? Maybe France will finally have a resurgence..
The system adapts to all things.



During the same period.
I'm talking about tournaments for the top few ranked nations, who are already qualified for the next World Cup.

@Springs09
The real difficulty here is fitting in tours/3-match series'
They've basically committed to bi-annual regional cups for the forseeable future.

So the 2 options are:
- Scrap the idea of the Continental IRL Cup and have year 2 designated as a tour year
Means IRL loses a potential property which could be major source of income.
Means if Australia, England and New Zealand alternated touring, it would be once every 12 years.

- Tour years overlap with Regional Cup years
Means the touring nation either skips their regional tournament,
or enters their A-team.

As i've mentioned a million times elsewhere, the touring nations entering A-teams in regionals is my preferred option. Obviously we're a while away from Australia playing any reasonable amount of tests let alone doing it on both sides of the world, but from a whole of game approach it's the best plan.

I can see where you are going with it, but you also don't want to over-do things and have some form of anticipation for events.
I have no idea what union does, but are their seasons comparable to ours? Do they have short international windows like we do?

 

[adamkungl]

I can see where you are going with it, but you also don't want to over-do things and have some form of anticipation for events.
I have no idea what union does, but are their seasons comparable to ours? Do they have short international windows like we do?

I don't know about northern hemisphere comps, but the Wallabies typically have a June tour window of a month or so in which the Super Rugby season pauses, and play test series and tournaments through September-November.
Super Rugby season is 16 matches + finals.

Imo NRL should go to 22 down from 25.

 

[roughyedspud]

Ending the 4nations wasn't a mistake ..

What they replaced it with was the mistake !!

We where supposed to get a 8 team,month long tournament...but we got a day & half World 9s comp instead because of meddling by the RLPA whinging about players being tired

 

[adamkungl]

Not sure what the rationale was for ending the 4 Nations with no replacement, other than they cocked up and the RLPA interfered.

I don't know how anyone can look at the last 2 years with a straight face and act like it's an improvement on what we had from 2006-2014.

 

[deluded pom?]

I don't know about northern hemisphere comps, but the Wallabies typically have a June tour window of a month or so in which the Super Rugby season pauses, and play test series and tournaments through September-November.
Super Rugby season is 16 matches + finals.

Imo NRL should go to 22 down from 25.

Didn’t the Aussie season always used to be 22 games? Were the extra games purely TV driven?

 

[Perth Red]

It's only very recently we've gone so backwards. Obviously SL f**ked us up but in the mid-2000s there was a big effort to get international footy back - in 2004 we brought in the Tri-Nations but Australia also played 7 post-season tests! 2 v NZ, 3 v GB, 1 v France and 1 v USA. Combined with the ANZAC Test there is 8 tests for the year and a proper international calendar.

Australia played 7 tests in 2005 and 6 in 2006 before the big effort to expand again starting with the 2008 World Cup which had very good crowds. Afterwards with the Four Nations we played less tests but still more than now and there were big efforts to expand. 2014 we got 47,000 at Suncorp for a test v NZ, 2019 we get 18k at Wollongong.

It was only with the rubbish scheduling and the poor attitude of both the organisers and the fans with the 2017 World Cup that we've started noticeably going backwards. Before then we were looking up. Now we got this Oceania Cup shit and 2 tests per year with teams arguing about not wanting to play each other.

Being a union fan it was no surprise to see Dave Smith stating the need to grow the international game and Kangaroo brand and including it in the NRL strategic plan. I dont feel Greenburgler has the same "vision" lol

 

[Springs09]

@Springs09
The real difficulty here is fitting in tours/3-match series'
They've basically committed to bi-annual regional cups for the forseeable future.

So the 2 options are:
- Scrap the idea of the Continental IRL Cup and have year 2 designated as a tour year
Means IRL loses a potential property which could be major source of income.
Means if Australia, England and New Zealand alternated touring, it would be once every 12 years.

- Tour years overlap with Regional Cup years
Means the touring nation either skips their regional tournament,
or enters their A-team.

As i've mentioned a million times elsewhere, the touring nations entering A-teams in regionals is my preferred option. Obviously we're a while away from Australia playing any reasonable amount of tests let alone doing it on both sides of the world, but from a whole of game approach it's the best plan.

Well yes but I'm not working on what the IRL currently has planned, because I think it's dumb. I don't think we can work with England only playing Australia/NZ once between World Cups. I think we need to build up three-test series again to be regular. The obvious solution is to hold series during a 3-week midseason window but that's far off.

I think there is room for tours, regional cups and continental tournaments.
I've posted draft calendars a few times but for example:

Year 1
- Euro Six Nations (or 4 if 6 isn't sustainable, England included)
- Kangaroo 'Tour of Pacific' (Trans-Tasman test series in NZ, tests v PNG, Fiji etc, NZ tests v Tonga, Samoa etc)
- Pacific Cup (Tier 2 only)

Year 2
- World 9s
- Federations Cup (Eight Team Tournament)
- World Cup Qualifying (All teams not involved in Federations Cup)

Year 3
- Lions Tour of Pacific (Ashes Series + Tests v NZ, Tonga etc)
- Pacific Six Nations (of 4 if 6 isn't sustainable, NZ included)
- European Cup (Tier 2 only)

Year 4
- World Cup

Year 5
- Euro Six Nations
- Kiwi 'Tour of Pacific' (Trans-Tasman test series in Australia, tests v Pacific sides, Australian tests v Pacific sides)
- Pacific Cup (Tier 2 only)

Year 6
- World 9s
- Federations Cup
- World Cup Qualifying

Year 7
- Kangaroo Tour of Europe (Ashes series + tests v France, Ireland etc.)
- Pacific Six Nations
- European Cup (Tier 2 only)

Year 8
- World Cup

To me this gives us both big Tier 1 series that used to be big drawcards (Ashes, Trans-Tasman etc), cross-Tier tournaments (Fed Cup, Euro Six Nations, Pacific Six Nations) that give Tier 2 nations a chance to compete in big tournaments, and Tier 2-only tournaments that gives European and Pacific sides a chance to compete only against each other, with more chance of winning, plus a chance for lower Tier 2 or Tier 3 sides like Serbia, Greece, Niue, Vanuatu etc a chance to play against stronger Tier 2 sides.

Only thing missing is the Baskerville Shield, which I'd remedy by having England v NZ be an annual mid-season fixture along with Tonga v Samoa, PNG v Fiji, Italy v Lebanon, France v Wales & Scotland v Ireland. At least until we get a 3 week window in which case we could have the Baskerville Shield 3-test series 1 year, NZ v Tonga 3-test series the next year etc.

 

[Springs09]

Didn’t the Aussie season always used to be 22 games? Were the extra games purely TV driven?

It was 22 games from 1967 (when it went to 12 teams) to 1997 (ARL) and went to 24 in 1998 and 26 in 2000 before back to 24 once Souths came back. I assume since they were working towards a 14-team comp in 2000 they raised it for that reason.

 

[RedVee]

It was 22 games from 1967 (when it went to 12 teams) to 1997 (ARL) and went to 24 in 1998 and 26 in 2000 before back to 24 once Souths came back. I assume since they were working towards a 14-team comp in 2000 they raised it for that reason.

The clubs didn’t want to lose a home game (12 to 11) either

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Ending the 4 Nations in 2016 was a big mistake.
I suspect it was tied to the new TV deal and the RLPA.

The dopey ARLC engineered themselves a situation where individual tests were given away for free, they could only sell tournaments, they ended the only tournament they could sell, and it cost close to half a Mil just to put the Kangaroos on the park.

I strongly believe that the IRL so called "Continental Cup" forever pencilled for cycle year 2 (2023, 2027) should basically be a revival of the 4 Nations, but with a 2nd pool.

This year we would have had
Cup: Australia, New Zealand, England, Tonga.
Shield: Samoa, PNG, Fiji, France
Would have, could have, should have been great.

2021 World Cup
22 Oceania Cup
23 IRL Cup
24 Oceania Cup
25 World Cup
26 Oceania Cup
27 IRL Cup
28 Oceania Cup
29 World Cup

This makes a lot of sense. The four nations was just starting to establish itself as a qualify competition and when it was terminated, the promise that there would be a replacement tournament where more teir 2 nations could get access to teir 1 nations. Luckily, the international game continued to grow and we are in a good position now to finally bring the four nations tournament replacement in from 2023 every four years.

As you've elluded to above, this should be the recurring calendar, the only piece currently missing is that Confed Cup / 4 Nations replacement:

2020: Regionals (Oceania, Euro, MEA, Americas) - Locked in
2021: World Cup - Locked in
2022: Regionals (Oceania, Euro, MEA, Americas) - Locked in
2023: Confederations Cup (using 2022 regionals as a qualifier)

 

[adamkungl]

Well yes but I'm not working on what the IRL currently has planned, because I think it's dumb. I don't think we can work with England only playing Australia/NZ once between World Cups. I think we need to build up three-test series again to be regular. The obvious solution is to hold series during a 3-week midseason window but that's far off.

I think there is room for tours, regional cups and continental tournaments.
I've posted draft calendars a few times but for example:

Year 1
- Euro Six Nations (or 4 if 6 isn't sustainable, England included)
- Kangaroo 'Tour of Pacific' (Trans-Tasman test series in NZ, tests v PNG, Fiji etc, NZ tests v Tonga, Samoa etc)
- Pacific Cup (Tier 2 only)

Year 2
- World 9s
- Federations Cup (Eight Team Tournament)
- World Cup Qualifying (All teams not involved in Federations Cup)

Year 3
- Lions Tour of Pacific (Ashes Series + Tests v NZ, Tonga etc)
- Pacific Six Nations (of 4 if 6 isn't sustainable, NZ included)
- European Cup (Tier 2 only)

Year 4
- World Cup

Year 5
- Euro Six Nations
- Kiwi 'Tour of Pacific' (Trans-Tasman test series in Australia, tests v Pacific sides, Australian tests v Pacific sides)
- Pacific Cup (Tier 2 only)

Year 6
- World 9s
- Federations Cup
- World Cup Qualifying

Year 7
- Kangaroo Tour of Europe (Ashes series + tests v France, Ireland etc.)
- Pacific Six Nations
- European Cup (Tier 2 only)

Year 8
- World Cup

To me this gives us both big Tier 1 series that used to be big drawcards (Ashes, Trans-Tasman etc), cross-Tier tournaments (Fed Cup, Euro Six Nations, Pacific Six Nations) that give Tier 2 nations a chance to compete in big tournaments, and Tier 2-only tournaments that gives European and Pacific sides a chance to compete only against each other, with more chance of winning, plus a chance for lower Tier 2 or Tier 3 sides like Serbia, Greece, Niue, Vanuatu etc a chance to play against stronger Tier 2 sides.

Only thing missing is the Baskerville Shield, which I'd remedy by having England v NZ be an annual mid-season fixture along with Tonga v Samoa, PNG v Fiji, Italy v Lebanon, France v Wales & Scotland v Ireland. At least until we get a 3 week window in which case we could have the Baskerville Shield 3-test series 1 year, NZ v Tonga 3-test series the next year etc.

Despite you saying the IRL plan is dumb: You, me, and the IRL are working on a pretty similar idea, but with different priorities.
Tours and Region Tournaments in years 1 and 3, and a world tournament in years 2 and 4.

The differences are a matter of priorities and how to solve the key issue of tours and tournaments in the same year - IRL don't seem to have a plan for now, just avoiding the issue.

I think both tours and tournaments are important, but tournaments need continuity and the same teams participating to gain any credibility.
If the Oceania Cup has 1 of Australia or New Zealand declining entry every iteration, it will struggle to build any real cred and, while not a total waste of time, be a whole heap of unfulfilled potential.