Marty Taupau defects Kiwis for Samoa

[Pommy]

In an ideal world NZ would be able to hold such a game before its test season and it would be a profitable exercises for them on and off the field and international bodies would hold serious sway and cash so clubs would suck it up. It would impact the club calendar rather than the test calendar.

But you're right, as things stands it could only be held in a standalone week and any such weeks should be used for international test football.


A more realistic alternative idea:

During the finals in September, there are only a handful of NRL teams in play.
So there are spare days on the calendar and a lot of spare players.
Australia runs the PM XIII program in PNG and this year Fiji.

Why doesn't the NZRL try something similar as a lead-in to its post season rep program.
They could play a possibles v probables game in NZ,
They could use an NZ-A or Maori side to visit Cook Islands, Samoa, Tonga.
Or some combination of these ideas.

The NRL clubs wouldn't kick up much fuss, it doesn't clash with real internationals, it keeps their players firing and fighting for positions before the test season.
NZRL needs to think outside the box to get some cash in its pocket and the fans onside.

Why not just play more tests? I don’t understand the need for this kind of thing to even exist.
If somebody invented origin now I would say it’s a dumb idea but as it stands we’re stuck with it.
I’m not saying I don’t enjoy origin but I feel it holds the sport back internationally.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

There is an obvious solution here. Make NZ a teir 2 nation. We all know that NZ consistently compete with England and Australia but that is not what the teirs are based on, they are based on:

• Domestic setup (NZ definately teir 2)
• Ability to pay players (NZRL do ok here but the NZRL are constantly broke)
• Ability to produce players (NZ are teir 1 here but mainly thanks to NRL clubs scouting NZ and the NZ Warriors playing in the Australian domestic league, not because of NZRL's ability to produce players)

The elephant in the room for years is that NZ doesn't quite make the cut as a teir 1 nation under any major criteria other than regularly beating Aus & Eng. If we make them a teir 2 nation it causes no negative impact to them (other than maybe pride), but it gives them the following benefits:

• Players such as Ponga, Tamou, Benji Marshall (and others in the future) that are eligible for State of Origin and NZ can play both
• Players can no longer switch between NZ and the Islands, just between Australia and the Islands

This doesn't have to hinder the progress of the islands either. NZ basically have to play tests every year in order to earn revenue and the players get paid out of the proceeds of the tests. The only difference then between NZ and the rest of the pacific nations, is that they ensure that they play tests each year. With the new calendar in place, all nations will be playing more often and will have the same opportunity that NZ have to earn revenue and pay their players from the proceeds. Hopefully also the Oceania Cup can sell broadcast rights independently post 2023 so that the competing nations can share in the spoils.

 

[adamkungl]

Why not just play more tests? I don’t understand the need for this kind of thing to even exist.
If somebody invented origin now I would say it’s a dumb idea but as it stands we’re stuck with it.
I’m not saying I don’t enjoy origin but I feel it holds the sport back internationally.

Also a fair point.
I would say that this kind of possibles v probables game could probably find a good local audience + be of value to the nation and the sport, in times when test football really isn't feasible. Eg. During NRL finals.

My main angle is that NZRL needs to think outside the box, find some self-made IP to sell that don't rely on the NRL bankrolling it and taking a fat cut.

 

[adamkungl]

There is an obvious solution here. Make NZ a teir 2 nation. We all know that NZ consistently compete with England and Australia but that is not what the teirs are based on, they are based on:

• Domestic setup (NZ definately teir 2)
• Ability to pay players (NZRL do ok here but the NZRL are constantly broke)
• Ability to produce players (NZ are teir 1 here but mainly thanks to NRL clubs scouting NZ and the NZ Warriors playing in the Australian domestic league, not because of NZRL's ability to produce players)

The elephant in the room for years is that NZ doesn't quite make the cut as a teir 1 nation under any major criteria other than regularly beating Aus & Eng. If we make them a teir 2 nation it causes no negative impact to them (other than maybe pride), but it gives them the following benefits:

• Players such as Ponga, Tamou, Benji Marshall (and others in the future) that are eligible for State of Origin and NZ can play both
• Players can no longer switch between NZ and the Islands, just between Australia and the Islands

This doesn't have to hinder the progress of the islands either. NZ basically have to play tests every year in order to earn revenue and the players get paid out of the proceeds of the tests. The only difference then between NZ and the rest of the pacific nations, is that they ensure that they play tests each year. With the new calendar in place, all nations will be playing more often and will have the same opportunity that NZ have to earn revenue and pay their players from the proceeds. Hopefully also the Oceania Cup can sell broadcast rights independently post 2023 so that the competing nations can share in the spoils.

Incorrect on both benefits.

1. The reason those players cant play Origin is because Origin rules (not international rules) stipulate that players must be available for Australia.
So it is on Australia to change this rule, and I'm in favour of it.
Changing NZs tier status would theoretically allow NZ players to play Origin by being dual-eligible for Aus and NZ, but only if they made themselves available for Australia over New Zealand, if chosen. Which would be a huge backfire.
Right now, any PI-eligible player that plays Origin would be expected to play for Australia if chosen.

2. Under the current rules players can switch between tier 2 nations freely.
Your suggestion would not prevent players switching between NZ and the islands, but actually add switching between Australia and NZ.

Regarding NZ's tier 1 status.
Despite their limited finances and no professional competition, they do have professional quality pathways and players coming through them in big numbers.

We can try to put criteria on this, and I have before, but ultimately it comes down to the nations ability to produce professional level footballers that can compete with Australia and England.
NZ can produce close to 3 teams worth. Tonga and Samoa couldn't, not without NZ and Aus doing it for them.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Incorrect on both benefits.

1. The reason those players cant play Origin is because Origin rules (not international rules) stipulate that players must be available for Australia.
So it is on Australia to change this rule, and I'm in favour of it.
Changing NZs tier status would theoretically allow NZ players to play Origin by being dual-eligible for Aus and NZ, but only if they made themselves available for Australia over New Zealand, if chosen. Which would be a huge backfire.
Right now, any PI-eligible player that plays Origin would be expected to play for Australia if chosen.

2. Under the current rules players can switch between tier 2 nations freely.
Your suggestion would not prevent players switching between NZ and the islands, but actually add switching between Australia and NZ.

Regarding NZ's tier 1 status.
Despite their limited finances and no professional competition, they do have professional quality pathways and players coming through them in big numbers.

We can try to put criteria on this, and I have before, but ultimately it comes down to the nations ability to produce professional level footballers that can compete with Australia and England.
NZ can produce close to 3 teams worth. Tonga and Samoa couldn't, not without NZ and Aus doing it for them.

So, technically correct on one of them then as Fifita could easily play Origin and then backflip to Tonga for the end of season international tournaments. Kiwi players could do exactly the same thing.

On point two. I wasn't aware of free movement between teir 2 nations, but I don't see any benefit to this being a rule. Surely if we were to drop the Kiwis to teir 2, it wouldn't harm any nation if we were to tighten that up and say that the only nation swapping that can go on is between teir 1 and teir 2 nations.

Re: player development - NZ doesn't produce them outside of them. The NRL clubs do (yes, this includes the Warriors of course, but they are not the NZRL). I see no reason, if the teir 2 nation swapping stops that the Kiwis, for their own benefit couldn't be made a teir 2 nation.

 

[Pommy]

Also a fair point.
I would say that this kind of possibles v probables game could probably find a good local audience + be of value to the nation and the sport, in times when test football really isn't feasible. Eg. During NRL finals.

My main angle is that NZRL needs to think outside the box, find some self-made IP to sell that don't rely on the NRL bankrolling it and taking a fat cut.

We’re constantly being told players are playing too many games. Now granted NZ players aren’t playing origin but they aren’t missing NRL games because of origin either so this just seems like meaningless games they don’t need to be playing.

 

[adamkungl]

So, technically correct on one of them then as Fifita could easily play Origin and then backflip to Tonga for the end of season international tournaments. Kiwi players could do exactly the same thing.

On point two. I wasn't aware of free movement between teir 2 nations, but I don't see any benefit to this being a rule. Surely if we were to drop the Kiwis to teir 2, it wouldn't harm any nation if we were to tighten that up and say that the only nation swapping that can go on is between teir 1 and teir 2 nations.

I think tier 2 nations still hold to the old once-every-4-years rule. I'm not 100% sure. But Asiata swapped from Samoa to Tonga last week.
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6218763/cowboy-asiata-explains-shock-samoan-switch/?cs=14326

Re: player development - NZ doesn't produce them outside of them. The NRL clubs do (yes, this includes the Warriors of course, but they are not the NZRL). I see no reason, if the teir 2 nation swapping stops that the Kiwis, for their own benefit couldn't be made a teir 2 nation.

I think we're getting a bit pedantic here.
NZ, whether its through the Warriors or the Auckland RL or NZRL affiliated leagues, produces a ton of players that other NRL clubs deem good enough to pick up and develop.
Which results in what, 25-35% of the NRL being eligible to play for NZ?
Whether the NZRL is directly responsible for this is largely irrelevant imo.

You could argue that PNG and France have junior leagues probably as good if not larger than NZ's.
The difference is that the NRL picks up NZ players and finishes the job, but no ones biting on PNG and French players.

 

[Shoulder Charge]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12242455

Looks like Marty tried to do some recruiting of his own? I imagine this won’t sit well with Kiwi fans?

 

[Springs09]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12242455

Looks like Marty tried to do some recruiting of his own? I imagine this won’t sit well with Kiwi fans?

I’d hope not considering RTS was born there and Kiwis are always whinging about Australia taking NZ born players.

 

[Shoulder Charge]

I’d hope not considering RTS was born there and Kiwis are always whinging about Australia taking NZ born players.

Well RTS did say he turned down Marty’s request, I think they’re looking at the Tongan movement and want to try and do the same thing, and who better player to approach then RTS to get that ball rolling!

 

[deluded pom?]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12242455

Looks like Marty tried to do some recruiting of his own? I imagine this won’t sit well with Kiwi fans?

No big surprise there. I would be more surprised if Taupau hadn’t approached other dual eligible Kiwis.

 

[adamkungl]

NZRL is going to push for a 2 year declaration period.

I think it will fail - one of the key reasons stated for the new rules is so that the best players are playing in international tournaments. Someone not selected by NZ (for example) can immediately swap to Samoa, rather than be left out entirely.
Any declaration period will result in quality players left in selection 'limbo'.

Failing that, the NZRL will consider not picking any players who have played for another nation.


The solution to the flip-flopping is early preferential declarations.
Players must declare who they are available for, well before any test matches in a season. Nation-swapping during selection periods should not be allowed.

 

[Clarkent]

NZRL is going to push for a 2 year declaration period.

I think it will fail - one of the key reasons stated for the new rules is so that the best players are playing in international tournaments. Someone not selected by NZ (for example) can immediately swap to Samoa, rather than be left out entirely.
Any declaration period will result in quality players left in selection 'limbo'.

Failing that, the NZRL will consider not picking any players who have played for another nation.


The solution to the flip-flopping is early preferential declarations.
Players must declare who they are available for, well before any test matches in a season. Nation-swapping during selection periods should not be allowed.

Nz being sookies as usual... They pulled players from the island teams last minute for the last 10 years just like the aussie team when they pulled tupou away from the Tongan team 3 days before he was supposed to play for Tonga that week... Now the shoes on the other foot they're having a sook about it? This change has put international rugby league on the map and made more teams compete against each other and not like the usual 3 teams we used to watch with boredom in the past...

 

[adamkungl]

It would be sad to see NZRL waste their time and energy on this when there are obvious shortcomings in their own backyard that could do a lot more good for NZ League.

 

[Matua]

Nz being sookies as usual... They pulled players from the island teams last minute for the last 10 years just like the aussie team when they pulled tupou away from the Tongan team 3 days before he was supposed to play for Tonga that week... Now the shoes on the other foot they're having a sook about it? This change has put international rugby league on the map and made more teams compete against each other and not like the usual 3 teams we used to watch with boredom in the past...

I know this is a legitimate view to hold if you're a fan of the Island teams and that's fair enough. But, it's not doing anything for the average Kiwi league fan.

The Kiwis have only 'pulled' Island players when that Island player wanted to play for NZ but missed selection first time round and an injury happened that opened up a spot. They weren't forcing the players, just as the Islands aren't forcing the players now.

This situation is having a negative effect on the the team from the 3rd biggest league market in the world. You must understand that NZRL want some better clarification around this? Why would a coach want to select a PI heritage player in a test when the next match they might be playing for the opposition? A declaration period merely gives the Kiwis some certainty. PI players are only locked in for that period.

TBH, I don't even think we need two years - just a declaration in January of each year. Once that declaration is made then that's the team they play for. In a years time if they want to change their mind then fine.

 

[Matua]

It would be sad to see NZRL waste their time and energy on this when there are obvious shortcomings in their own backyard that could do a lot more good for NZ League.

TBH, I think that's underselling the importance of this a bit. I'm a diehard, I'll watch the Kiwis no matter what - I have mates who have said they wont watch because it's all just a cluster fudge now.

 

[Clarkent]

I know this is a legitimate view to hold if you're a fan of the Island teams and that's fair enough. But, it's not doing anything for the average Kiwi league fan.

The Kiwis have only 'pulled' Island players when that Island player wanted to play for NZ but missed selection first time round and an injury happened that opened up a spot. They weren't forcing the players, just as the Islands aren't forcing the players now.

This situation is having a negative effect on the the team from the 3rd biggest league market in the world. You must understand that NZRL want some better clarification around this? Why would a coach want to select a PI heritage player in a test when the next match they might be playing for the opposition? A declaration period merely gives the Kiwis some certainty. PI players are only locked in for that period.

TBH, I don't even think we need two years - just a declaration in January of each year. Once that declaration is made then that's the team they play for. In a years time if they want to change their mind then fine.

I get your point and it goes both ways... Let's be honest here the kiwis aren't having a sook because players are pulling out last minute they're having a sook cause they're losing a huge amount of star players to the island nation... The feeling that the " average kiwi league fan are feeling right now " is what we used to feel... and we had no problem at the time because the only time we only used to see Samoa play was at the world Cup back then... Now that there's more regular test every year now, its no surprise the island heritage players wanna turn out for the island nations now... NZRL should be happy they've been crying out for more regular tests every year and now they're getting it... Playing Tongans every year is probably making them more profit then they've ever had before... Cause I remember back then hardly anyone turned up to watch them play the kangaroos and England at home...

 

[Springs09]

NZRL is going to push for a 2 year declaration period.

I think it will fail - one of the key reasons stated for the new rules is so that the best players are playing in international tournaments. Someone not selected by NZ (for example) can immediately swap to Samoa, rather than be left out entirely.
Any declaration period will result in quality players left in selection 'limbo'.

Failing that, the NZRL will consider not picking any players who have played for another nation.


The solution to the flip-flopping is early preferential declarations.
Players must declare who they are available for, well before any test matches in a season. Nation-swapping during selection periods should not be allowed.

When would the declaration be from? Would it be from when Taupau first 'declared' for NZ or from his last game for NZ?

 

[adamkungl]

TBH, I think that's underselling the importance of this a bit. I'm a diehard, I'll watch the Kiwis no matter what - I have mates who have said they wont watch because it's all just a cluster fudge now.

Your mates will probably watch again if the Kiwis knock of the Aussies and Tongans I reckon.

But I agree with your suggestion about declaring in January. Swapping nations the week before a game is completely ridiculous and we saw that happen the second these rules came into place.