[Match Thread] World 9’s!

[adamkungl]

Agreed it needs to be persisted with, but you’re preaching to the converted here.
The common public have no interest in watching Australia win everything, every time, with little trouble. This attitude from the public is why everything gets put on the shelf all the time in Rugby League.

It's kind of a pointless thing to fuss about. There's no easy solutions that aren't completely contrived. Worry about what you can control, not what you can't. And the RLI can't control that Australia are the best.

What they can do:
Keep building,
keep giving other nations opportunities to progress,
keep putting them in the public eye.

I would argue that Australia's dominance is kind of a symptom rather than a cause.
The deeper problem isn't so much that Australia always wins, it's that Australia has been the almost sole focus of the international scene.
The northern hemisphere should have regular trophies on offer that have nothing to do with Aus - but England has neglected growing the sport with its neighbours even worse than Aus has.

You can see this reflected in the last few years with the exposure the Pacific nations have got. People want to see Tonga v Samoa, Tonga v New Zealand. Australia not involved. And then the best of them do want a shot against Australia.
Give these other nations a running story between World Cups so the public doesnt see them once every 4 years and think theyre made up teams

I'd argue that the gap between 3 and 4 is a bigger problem than the gap between 1 and 2. We've seen NZ beat Australia a bunch of times, but until 2017 had never seen anyone knock off the top 3 in a meaningful game.
Variation at 2-5 is almost more important than the winner, imo

 

[Arucard]

Every time I point out you’re wrong you simply dismiss what I have said. A pointless exercise on my part. I’ll leave you to it.

How does bringing up another sports culture have anything to do with the common public's perception of International Rugby League?

 

[Arucard]

It's kind of a pointless thing to fuss about. There's no easy solutions that aren't completely contrived. Worry about what you can control, not what you can't. And the RLI can't control that Australia are the best.

What they can do:
Keep building,
keep giving other nations opportunities to progress,
keep putting them in the public eye.

I would argue that Australia's dominance is kind of a symptom rather than a cause.
The deeper problem isn't so much that Australia always wins, it's that Australia has been the almost sole focus of the international scene.
The northern hemisphere should have regular trophies on offer that have nothing to do with Aus - but England has neglected growing the sport with its neighbours even worse than Aus has.

You can see this reflected in the last few years with the exposure the Pacific nations have got. People want to see Tonga v Samoa, Tonga v New Zealand. Australia not involved. And then the best of them do want a shot against Australia.
Give these other nations a running story between World Cups so the public doesnt see them once every 4 years and think theyre made up teams

I'd argue that the gap between 3 and 4 is a bigger problem than the gap between 1 and 2. We've seen NZ beat Australia a bunch of times, but until 2017 had never seen anyone knock off the top 3 in a meaningful game.
Variation at 2-5 is almost more important than the winner, imo

All very true. But Australia were participating in the 9's.

If you don't think Australia winning and being in a final constantly has a bearing on the poor attendances, what do you think is wrong?
What'll be the excuse for the poor turnout coming on Friday? Backing up what was a poor turnout for the 9's.
What's the excuse for the lack of public care for the upcoming game back in NZ. (RL has to stand on it's own feet and can't blame union for everything)

 

[adamkungl]

All very true. But Australia were participating in the 9's.

If you don't think Australia winning and being in a final constantly has a bearing on the poor attendances, what do you think is wrong?
What'll be the excuse for the poor turnout coming on Friday? Backing up what was a poor turnout for the 9's.
What's the excuse for the lack of public care for the upcoming game back in NZ. (RL has to stand on it's own feet and can't blame union for everything)

It has a bearing but like I said, it's more a symptom than a cause. And the solution has nothing to do with Australia.
With a varied international scene, a successful Australia can be a showpiece similar to the All-Blacks, rather than a sole focus which has become arrogant and boring.

In regards to the current crowds
There are obvious reasons which have nothing to do with Kangaroos dominance.

World 9s is a new concept which for a lot of people would have taken some convincing. Australia has an attitude that when the Grand Final switches off, it's cricket season. High quality International Rugby League events every year, instead of every 3 or 4 years, will eventually break this barrier. But it takes persistence.

Poor scheduling, Friday night 9s tournament, Friday night in Wollongong. Who from Sydney is going to Wollongong on Friday night? Then we've got the triple header on World Cup night.
Self-inflicted failures by the sport.

And, to be honest
I dont think everyone thought 9s would be a shoe-in for Aus.
and NZ beat Aus in their last match. There's every chance NZ will take this Oceania Cup. Unfortunately Tonga are probably a write-off due to political issues.

 

[Arucard]

It has a bearing but like I said, it's more a symptom than a cause. And the solution has nothing to do with Australia.
With a varied international scene, a successful Australia can be a showpiece similar to the All-Blacks, rather than a sole focus which has become arrogant and boring.

In regards to the current crowds
There are obvious reasons which have nothing to do with Kangaroos dominance.

World 9s is a new concept which for a lot of people would have taken some convincing. Australia has an attitude that when the Grand Final switches off, it's cricket season. High quality International Rugby League events every year, instead of every 3 or 4 years, will eventually break this barrier. But it takes persistence.

Poor scheduling, Friday night 9s tournament, Friday night in Wollongong. Who from Sydney is going to Wollongong on Friday night? Then we've got the triple header on World Cup night.
Self-inflicted failures by the sport.

And, to be honest
I dont think everyone thought 9s would be a shoe-in for Aus.
and NZ beat Aus in their last match. There's every chance NZ will take this Oceania Cup. Unfortunately Tonga are probably a write-off due to political issues.

Agreed scheduling plays a factor, but why do we need Sydney to send people down. It's Australia's national team playing. It isn't a big stadium in the first place, so the local community should be able to pack it out on it's own. Why do you think it doesn't?

Absolutely a new concept needs to be stuck with and built upon, but why wasn't there any excitement at there being a new concept in the first place. Friday makes sense as a failure due to scheduling in part, but the same excuse can't be made for Saturday.

The attitude of people turning off after the NRL season is finished doesn't make much sense either, unless the attitude supports what I've been saying with nobody caring because the feeling is Australia will win unless there's a one off upset. Look at how it was looked upon a few years ago when NZ went on our winning streak against Australia. Crowds went up and the interest boomed. Then Australia dominated again and it went away.

 

[adamkungl]

So what's the solution?

 

[Springs09]

All very true. But Australia were participating in the 9's.

If you don't think Australia winning and being in a final constantly has a bearing on the poor attendances, what do you think is wrong?
What'll be the excuse for the poor turnout coming on Friday? Backing up what was a poor turnout for the 9's.
What's the excuse for the lack of public care for the upcoming game back in NZ. (RL has to stand on it's own feet and can't blame union for everything)

I dare say Australia not winning and not being in a final would have a worse effect on crowds in Australia at least.

What is wrong is audience apathy backed up by poor scheduling causing more apathy. Most of the population think international league is a 'joke' or a 'farce' and repeat it ad nauseam, and the media think the same so that's all you hear about. When our own commentators publicly rubbish the international game how are you supposed to promote it? It has nothing to do with Australia constantly winning - we don't constantly win. Our last test we lost to NZ and we lost 2014, 2010 & 2008.

It looked like international league was finally ready to take off after 2014 - we had a great 2013 World Cup with lots of support in the UK and followed it up with a good 2014 Four Nations that was both closely contested and well attended - then we said 'eh lets have a year off' while England and NZ played a mediocre series in 2015, followed by a poorly planned 2016 Four Nations in the UK and an even more poorly planned World Cup in 2017. But even then we have positives like new nations becoming competitive and lots of new Tongan fans so to capitalise on that we did nothing in 2018. Then decided to have this 'Oceania Cup' non-event and a freakin' GB Lions Tour of all things. The way to build crowds is not to have Australia play only one home test in 4 or 5 f**king years.

 

[Arucard]

I dare say Australia not winning and not being in a final would have a worse effect on crowds in Australia at least.

What is wrong is audience apathy backed up by poor scheduling causing more apathy. Most of the population think international league is a 'joke' or a 'farce' and repeat it ad nauseam, and the media think the same so that's all you hear about. When our own commentators publicly rubbish the international game how are you supposed to promote it? It has nothing to do with Australia constantly winning - we don't constantly win. Our last test we lost to NZ and we lost 2014, 2010 & 2008.

It looked like international league was finally ready to take off after 2014 - we had a great 2013 World Cup with lots of support in the UK and followed it up with a good 2014 Four Nations that was both closely contested and well attended - then we said 'eh lets have a year off' while England and NZ played a mediocre series in 2015, followed by a poorly planned 2016 Four Nations in the UK and an even more poorly planned World Cup in 2017. But even then we have positives like new nations becoming competitive and lots of new Tongan fans so to capitalise on that we did nothing in 2018. Then decided to have this 'Oceania Cup' non-event and a freakin' GB Lions Tour of all things. The way to build crowds is not to have Australia play only one home test in 4 or 5 f**king years.

Where did that apathy come from though? Why is the international scene considered a joke?
Of course Australia missing out on a final would have a 1 off impact on crowds in Australia short term. But it can't be any worse than what currently bothers turning up. Look what happened for awhile when Australia were sliding down the rankings. It galvanized everyone for a brief period and showed us what could become regular. Unfortunately Australia bounced back and no one could keep up and here we are again. What's getting lost here is everyone blames everything else (which is all very true and contributes) but won't accept the fact that Australia winning has become such a norm that people just accept it and tune out. How many tournaments do we go into, knowing Australia won't reach the final? How many do we accept that Australia will most likely win? Now think about that as a member of the general public who isn't an internationalist like us. Would you really be full on into it? Would it be a must attend event?

Agreed, we lost a lot on poor follow up in the recent past and that desperately needs to be changed if we are to make any ground going forward.

 

[adamkungl]

What's getting lost here is everyone blames everything else (which is all very true and contributes) but won't accept the fact that Australia winning has become such a norm that people just accept it and tune out

Mate we accept it, it is what it is.
But if you focus on, and blame, an issue like this where you can't really do much about it, all you're really doing is throwing your hands up and giving up.
If Australia's dominance is THE main issue preventing growth then we may as well pack it in.

But there's nothing that can really be done about it other than building other nations up.
And RLI has taken some steps to do that, by (in theory) giving them more high quality games and more high quality players through the dual-eligibility changes.

Australia can't get any better, if it makes you feel any better. They're at the top. They're as good at Rugby League as anyone is ever going to get.
So the gap can only close, if England, NZ and the rest keep working at it.

 

[Springs09]

Where did that apathy come from though? Why is the international scene considered a joke?
Of course Australia missing out on a final would have a 1 off impact on crowds in Australia short term. But it can't be any worse than what currently bothers turning up. Look what happened for awhile when Australia were sliding down the rankings. It galvanized everyone for a brief period and showed us what could become regular. Unfortunately Australia bounced back and no one could keep up and here we are again. What's getting lost here is everyone blames everything else (which is all very true and contributes) but won't accept the fact that Australia winning has become such a norm that people just accept it and tune out. How many tournaments do we go into, knowing Australia won't reach the final? How many do we accept that Australia will most likely win? Now think about that as a member of the general public who isn't an internationalist like us. Would you really be full on into it? Would it be a must attend event?

Agreed, we lost a lot on poor follow up in the recent past and that desperately needs to be changed if we are to make any ground going forward.

The apathy comes from many things:
- The growth of the union world cup and league's attempts at our own world cup being compared to it, with snobs looking down at league for not having enough 'competitive' or 'legitimate' countries, with particular ire at heritage players.
- Our own media and personalities talking down the international game when compared to Origin or the NRL. Even in my own local paper the two league journos had nothing better to do in October 2017 than rubbish their own World Cup.
- Poor scheduling inducing apathy in even diehard international league supporters. This is the first off-season I can remember where I'm not excited for the internationals because the planning is so awful.
- The failure of Super League which crippled the international game and convinced many fans that looking after their own backyard was more important than spreading the game, combined with the failure of the 2000 RLWC which was a legitimately silly tournament with ridiculous sides and lopsided results.
- And yes, the perception of the non-competitiveness of international league, even though that's more a creation of the fans or media than it is reality. Australia won everything from the late 70s to 2005 yet internationals were not as derided in the late 80s/early 90s as much as they are now, when Australia has been far less dominant in the last decade than they were in the three decades prior.

Any of your arguments about Australia winning all the time can be used in Union as well. All Blacks have been just as dominant as the Kangaroos, rarely do they go into any series or tournaments without being heavy favourites. I disagree that the brief period NZ were seen as the best team had much impact at all. They only beat us once at full strength. And as for crowds
2014 Four Nations, NZ not having beaten Australia since 2010:
Australia v NZ, Brisbane - 47k
NZ v Australia Final, Wellington (after NZ beat Australia in Brisbane) - 25k

2015 Anzac Test, Brisbane (NZ on a 2 match winning streak) - 32k

Also, if Australia losing is all that brings crowds in we should get a sellout for this Friday's game, since NZ beat us last time.

 

[Arucard]

The apathy comes from many things:
- The growth of the union world cup and league's attempts at our own world cup being compared to it, with snobs looking down at league for not having enough 'competitive' or 'legitimate' countries, with particular ire at heritage players.
- Our own media and personalities talking down the international game when compared to Origin or the NRL. Even in my own local paper the two league journos had nothing better to do in October 2017 than rubbish their own World Cup.
- Poor scheduling inducing apathy in even diehard international league supporters. This is the first off-season I can remember where I'm not excited for the internationals because the planning is so awful.
- The failure of Super League which crippled the international game and convinced many fans that looking after their own backyard was more important than spreading the game, combined with the failure of the 2000 RLWC which was a legitimately silly tournament with ridiculous sides and lopsided results.
- And yes, the perception of the non-competitiveness of international league, even though that's more a creation of the fans or media than it is reality. Australia won everything from the late 70s to 2005 yet internationals were not as derided in the late 80s/early 90s as much as they are now, when Australia has been far less dominant in the last decade than they were in the three decades prior.

Any of your arguments about Australia winning all the time can be used in Union as well. All Blacks have been just as dominant as the Kangaroos, rarely do they go into any series or tournaments without being heavy favourites. I disagree that the brief period NZ were seen as the best team had much impact at all. They only beat us once at full strength. And as for crowds
2014 Four Nations, NZ not having beaten Australia since 2010:
Australia v NZ, Brisbane - 47k
NZ v Australia Final, Wellington (after NZ beat Australia in Brisbane) - 25k

2015 Anzac Test, Brisbane (NZ on a 2 match winning streak) - 32k

Also, if Australia losing is all that brings crowds in we should get a sellout for this Friday's game, since NZ beat us last time.

So we blame the media, scheduling, people comparing things from another sport that has no bearing on what we do, and everything else and Australia's continued dominance plays no part. Thanks for clearing that up. I feel much better about Friday's crowd now. Media has been posting positive stories on the game, Friday has no other major sport event against it, Small stadium with the national team playing, and NZ coming off 1 in a row.

 

[Arucard]

Mate we accept it, it is what it is.
But if you focus on, and blame, an issue like this where you can't really do much about it, all you're really doing is throwing your hands up and giving up.
If Australia's dominance is THE main issue preventing growth then we may as well pack it in.

But there's nothing that can really be done about it other than building other nations up.
And RLI has taken some steps to do that, by (in theory) giving them more high quality games and more high quality players through the dual-eligibility changes.

Australia can't get any better, if it makes you feel any better. They're at the top. They're as good at Rugby League as anyone is ever going to get.
So the gap can only close, if England, NZ and the rest keep working at it.

It's not the main issue at all. I've agreed with all points you've brought up as contributing factors overall. But the fact Australia is felt as never under threat in games is definitely another factor.

 

[adamkungl]

It's not the main issue at all. I've agreed with all points you've brought up as contributing factors overall. But the fact Australia is felt as never under threat in games is definitely another factor.

It is
Most internationalists cheer against Australia for this reason

But I can't see what can actually be done about it, there's no quick fix, so I don't devote much energy worrying about it.

Scheduling, promotion, media, calendar, structure are all debatable topics that can be influenced by the games administrators and even by fans in a small way.

 

[Arucard]

It is
Most internationalists cheer against Australia for this reason

But I can't see what can actually be done about it, there's no quick fix, so I don't devote much energy worrying about it.

Scheduling, promotion, media, calendar, structure are all debatable topics that can be influenced by the games administrators and even by fans in a small way.

I agree.
What I was getting at is there are people out there completely influenced by the fact Australia wins everything. No matter of schedules and promotions will change that. Only time will solve that, not scheduling and the like. The IRL do well with what they have, yes they could do more, but they do a lot better than what some people on here would do and get credit for. Can you imagine running a world event like the 9’s with no start up because you weren’t willing to play Friday?

 

[Springs09]

So we blame the media, scheduling, people comparing things from another sport that has no bearing on what we do, and everything else and Australia's continued dominance plays no part. Thanks for clearing that up. I feel much better about Friday's crowd now. Media has been posting positive stories on the game, Friday has no other major sport event against it, Small stadium with the national team playing, and NZ coming off 1 in a row.

I didn't say that, but just keep being snarky with no solutions if you want. I'm sure it will get us somewhere.

I agree.
What I was getting at is there are people out there completely influenced by the fact Australia wins everything. No matter of schedules and promotions will change that. Only time will solve that, not scheduling and the like. The IRL do well with what they have, yes they could do more, but they do a lot better than what some people on here would do and get credit for. Can you imagine running a world event like the 9’s with no start up because you weren’t willing to play Friday?

Very much disagree. They have the opportunity to do so much more and they do f**k all. The Australian contingent especially has seemingly deliberately f**ked it up. Australia has gone from playing 14 home tests in 2014-17 to 1 in 2018-21.

 

[Arucard]

I didn't say that, but just keep being snarky with no solutions if you want. I'm sure it will get us somewhere.



Very much disagree. They have the opportunity to do so much more and they do f**k all. The Australian contingent especially has seemingly deliberately f**ked it up. Australia has gone from playing 14 home tests in 2014-17 to 1 in 2018-21.

Smart ass comment, gets a smart ass answer.

The IRL is not the ARL. If Australia don’t want to play, that is their choice. Do I agree with their attitude? No.

 

[Force]

I dont think Australia being dominant has as big a bearing on crowd attendance as you may think. Its more the fact the International game is seen as the poor cousin compared to domestic league. Union has it right, the international game is at the forefront so attract the biggest crowds and the domestic game has poorer turnouts as its below the International game. League needs an overhaul, make the international game the pinnacle and push Origin down a notch, then you'll probably see bigger crowds.

 

[Storm13]

Would increase both women's and men's teams and play over a three day weekend in three different cities. Start off in Melbourne then onto Sydney with the final day being played in Brisbane.

 

[RedVee]

It has a bearing but like I said, it's more a symptom than a cause. And the solution has nothing to do with Australia.
With a varied international scene, a successful Australia can be a showpiece similar to the All-Blacks, rather than a sole focus which has become arrogant and boring.

In regards to the current crowds
There are obvious reasons which have nothing to do with Kangaroos dominance.

World 9s is a new concept which for a lot of people would have taken some convincing. Australia has an attitude that when the Grand Final switches off, it's cricket season. High quality International Rugby League events every year, instead of every 3 or 4 years, will eventually break this barrier. But it takes persistence.

Poor scheduling, Friday night 9s tournament, Friday night in Wollongong. Who from Sydney is going to Wollongong on Friday night? Then we've got the triple header on World Cup night.
Self-inflicted failures by the sport.

And, to be honest
I dont think everyone thought 9s would be a shoe-in for Aus.
and NZ beat Aus in their last match. There's every chance NZ will take this Oceania Cup. Unfortunately Tonga are probably a write-off due to political issues.

I was just saying to the Mrs that if this game was Sat or Sunday I’d be going. Friday night is just too hard.
ARLC/NRL going for TV over a good attendance. Again.

 

[adamkungl]

I was just saying to the Mrs that if this game was Sat or Sunday I’d be going. Friday night is just too hard.
ARLC/NRL going for TV over a good attendance. Again.

Same here.
I can't really justify leaving work early to watch the 23s flog France, and i don't want to buy a ticket and drive 2 hrs each way to get 1/3rd of the experience i've paid for. So TV it is...