McInnes - 80 min hooker?

[kit66]

He's an 80 minute hooker, that's obvious and the stats show not only that he's a success but in the top few best hookers in the comp. Not the best but up there. More importantly he's a great fit for our style of play and by being an 80minute hooker he free's up valuable bench / interchange space.

A stat I'd like to see is the penalty counts before and after Origin last year. I suspect you'd find there was a dramatic drop in penalties awarded, especially for ruck infringements. I say it because the crackdown on the wrestle and the resulting quick play the balls for half of last year was a massive benefit to us partly because McInnes is great at always getting to dummy half quickly and capitalizing on quick ptb's.
The policing of the ruck this year has been a joke so far.

Edit : if you abbreviate "dummy half" to initials it gets censored to " Fake ". dh.....d h.....I wonder what happens if you write d*ckhead ?

 

[BennyV]

He's an 80 minute hooker, that's obvious and the stats show not only that he's a success but in the top few best hookers in the comp. Not the best but up there. More importantly he's a great fit for our style of play and by being an 80minute hooker he free's up valuable bench / interchange space.

A stat I'd like to see is the penalty counts before and after Origin last year. I suspect you'd find there was a dramatic drop in penalties awarded, especially for ruck infringements. I say it because the crackdown on the wrestle and the resulting quick play the balls for half of last year was a massive benefit to us partly because McInnes is great at always getting to Fake quickly and capitalizing on quick ptb's.
The policing of the ruck this year has been a joke so far.

Valuable bench/interchange space to do what? We are 5 games in and so far, we’ve been wasting bench space and interchange on pointless rotations (eg switching Leilua and Host at half time) and having a back on the bench.

There is lots of value in utilising a hooking rotation - as has been outlined, it provides a point of difference in attack, changes the tempo of a game, provides our 2nd string hooker with valuable minutes, etc. Rugby League is a 17 man game, not a 13 man game. The coaches who recognise this have an immediate advantage over those who don’t.

I maintain that, regardless of what happens with Robson, just because McInnes can play 80 minutes doesn’t mean that him doing so for 24 games a year is the best outcome.

 

[The Damo]

This statement or reply is closest to the mark IMO. That fatigue line was from the media in regards Origin and suited Mary to run with it as an excuse and something to say we can fix that for next year and every team can be affected by the Origin thing as a mask for other things.

It was form. We started as hard as we could with no injuries until origin and it was before then we were worked out by other teams in regards to defense and attacking structures that changed from 2017.

If you really pull the season apart the 1st team to expose us was Souths in Round 5 (2nd half) where we clung on to win as they exposed our right edge. The Warriors Round 7. We got up and were lucky in the end as the 50 / 50's went our way in ANZAC day although the scoreline does not show it and were at our peak in Round 9 against Storm?.
From Round 10 onwards we bumbled and fumbled and spluttered until the Brisbane game in the semi.
Not fatigue..the real stats. No back up or plan to change was the real issue.

Back to your article DAMO...,McInnes you are correct, he just fell in line with the teams whole performance. His efforts for a season are always monumental and he will do it again this year barring injury.

If there is a side this year that I think maybe starting to be exposed and form may start to dip..dare I say it Melbourne.
From 20-0 down they got all the rub if the green after that from the boys in the middle. It helps when you are at home.
But compare us last year to the Roosters this year. They are truly a level above everybody ATM and so is their salary but an argument for another day
I'd sign their 4th string winger Matt Ikalavu (whatever his name) is..cant he leap and that Kiwi who busted the line in golden point in a heartbeat for not much money yet.

Yeah I agree with all of that. Adaption both over the season and in game was probably our biggest failure. That’s what really lost us the close games.

 

[kit66]

Valuable bench/interchange space to do what? We are 5 games in and so far, we’ve been wasting bench space and interchange on pointless rotations (eg switching Leilua and Host at half time) and having a back on the bench.

There is lots of value in utilising a hooking rotation - as has been outlined, it provides a point of difference in attack, changes the tempo of a game, provides our 2nd string hooker with valuable minutes, etc. Rugby League is a 17 man game, not a 13 man game. The coaches who recognise this have an immediate advantage over those who don’t.

I maintain that, regardless of what happens with Robson, just because McInnes can play 80 minutes doesn’t mean that him doing so for 24 games a year is the best outcome.

My argument wasn't reliant on our coach being smart re use of the bench or otherwise. I'd rather leave Mary out of this but if you must - he stuffs up the selection and use of the bench now, do you really think giving him another tricky and crucial decision on rotation is going to be good for us or make things worse ? I put that in bold because you need to read it twice.

This is just a general opinion, not about any team or coach in particular.
I just don't see the point of rotating hookers for the sake of it. You don't rotate anyone else in the spine to " provide a point of difference in attack ". To have a hooker ( not a utility or strike player but a Hooker ) on the bench in case you get behind on the scoreboard and you think he's going to be your saviour is wishful thinking at best, poor management in the first place at worst. What if you're in front and cruising, do you still make the change and risk upsetting the balance, games can turn on a dime these days. What if it's a tight contest and your on field hooker is playing really well etc etc. You going to replace Cam Smith or Cook in a tight contest ? Get yourself a good 80 minute hooker and show some faith.
Better to go with props, second rowers and a utility on the bench ( strike player if you must - I'm not in favour of this either ) or 4 forwards. There's always someone in a team - in our case Hunt - that can step into the hooking role if the hooker is injured. It's just not necessary to have a specialist hooker on the bench " in case ".

 

[The Damo]

Valuable bench/interchange space to do what? We are 5 games in and so far, we’ve been wasting bench space and interchange on pointless rotations (eg switching Leilua and Host at half time) and having a back on the bench.

There is lots of value in utilising a hooking rotation - as has been outlined, it provides a point of difference in attack, changes the tempo of a game, provides our 2nd string hooker with valuable minutes, etc. Rugby League is a 17 man game, not a 13 man game. The coaches who recognise this have an immediate advantage over those who don’t.

I maintain that, regardless of what happens with Robson, just because McInnes can play 80 minutes doesn’t mean that him doing so for 24 games a year is the best outcome.

A hooker rotation would absolutely be better than what we’re currently doing. But anything using a proper four man bench is better than the current tactics. If most games we just rotated forwards that’d be an improvement too. Mix that up with some games rotating Cam would be a good balance I think. Ain’t gonna happen sadly.

 

[BennyV]

My argument wasn't reliant on our coach being smart re use of the bench or otherwise. I'd rather leave Mary out of this but if you must - he stuffs up the selection and use of the bench now, do you really think giving him another tricky and crucial decision on rotation is going to be good for us or make things worse ? I put that in bold because you need to read it twice.

This is just a general opinion, not about any team or coach in particular.
I just don't see the point of rotating hookers for the sake of it. You don't rotate anyone else in the spine to " provide a point of difference in attack ". To have a hooker ( not a utility or strike player but a Hooker ) on the bench in case you get behind on the scoreboard and you think he's going to be your saviour is wishful thinking at best, poor management in the first place at worst. What if you're in front and cruising, do you still make the change and risk upsetting the balance, games can turn on a dime these days. What if it's a tight contest and your on field hooker is playing really well etc etc. You going to replace Cam Smith or Cook in a tight contest ? Get yourself a good 80 minute hooker and show some faith.
Better to go with props, second rowers and a utility on the bench ( strike player if you must - I'm not in favour of this either ) or 4 forwards. There's always someone in a team - in our case Hunt - that can step into the hooking role if the hooker is injured. It's just not necessary to have a specialist hooker on the bench " in case ".

Fair enough, take our situation out of it and is argue there is absolutely value in rotating hookers.
1) Hooker is the most taxing position on the field. They touch the ball more than any other player, are the smallest player in the centre of the field and thus are targeted in defence, and they need to keep alert and in-fatigued to make decisions for the full game. Regardless of the ability to play 80 minutes, relief is often welcomed and fresh legs in that position can change the game more than any other. All top hookers bar Cook give up hooking minutes throughout the game - even Cam Smith took regular breaks from 9 last year, with Brandon Smith taking over.
2) The ‘point of difference’ isn’t about chasing points. Lifting the tempo of a game or slightly changing the threat from dummy half is valuable in any situation. Someone like Havili or Robson creates an instant threat for the defence to have to compress, creating more opportunities in attack. This isn’t the case with a change in halfback, 5/8 or fullback.
3) At the moment, our second string hooker has played less than 20 minutes of NRL. If McInnes goes down next game, we are f**ked. We should be pumping minutes into our next best option so we have genuine back up.
4) Bench rotation - to channel RufusRex, there are 8 interchanges. 4 of these should be rotating the props, which leaves 2 bench spots and 4 interchanges. Swapping the backline is pointless, and while one of the forwards should be able to shift to the edge, the second row is less taxing than hooker and lock. So these are the ideal positions to rotate. The best option is to have benchies who can fill multiple positions - either lock/edge, hooker/edge or lock/hooker. There’s also room in there for tactical subs. This should be the role we target for Lovodua, and why Havili would have been such a great asset, but in its simplest form if we are trying to best use the bench to relieve the most tiring positions with multi-skilled players, that definitely involves hooker!!

As mentioned, all top hookers (bar Cook, who’s defensive workload and quality is well below Cam) give up minutes at hooker regularly throughout the season. There’s a clear reason for that.

 

[kit66]

Fair enough, take our situation out of it and is argue there is absolutely value in rotating hookers.
1) Hooker is the most taxing position on the field. They touch the ball more than any other player, are the smallest player in the centre of the field and thus are targeted in defence, and they need to keep alert and in-fatigued to make decisions for the full game. Regardless of the ability to play 80 minutes, relief is often welcomed and fresh legs in that position can change the game more than any other. All top hookers bar Cook give up hooking minutes throughout the game - even Cam Smith took regular breaks from 9 last year, with Brandon Smith taking over.
2) The ‘point of difference’ isn’t about chasing points. Lifting the tempo of a game or slightly changing the threat from dummy half is valuable in any situation. Someone like Havili or Robson creates an instant threat for the defence to have to compress, creating more opportunities in attack. This isn’t the case with a change in halfback, 5/8 or fullback.
3) At the moment, our second string hooker has played less than 20 minutes of NRL. If McInnes goes down next game, we are f**ked. We should be pumping minutes into our next best option so we have genuine back up.
4) Bench rotation - to channel RufusRex, there are 8 interchanges. 4 of these should be rotating the props, which leaves 2 bench spots and 4 interchanges. Swapping the backline is pointless, and while one of the forwards should be able to shift to the edge, the second row is less taxing than hooker and lock. So these are the ideal positions to rotate. The best option is to have benchies who can fill multiple positions - either lock/edge, hooker/edge or lock/hooker. There’s also room in there for tactical subs. This should be the role we target for Lovodua, and why Havili would have been such a great asset, but in its simplest form if we are trying to best use the bench to relieve the most tiring positions with multi-skilled players, that definitely involves hooker!!

As mentioned, all top hookers (bar Cook, who’s defensive workload and quality is well below Cam) give up minutes at hooker regularly throughout the season. There’s a clear reason for that.

You have some compelling arguments but sorry, I'm not sold. I've seen the results of a 2 hooker 17 in past Saints squads and others. It has been one of my pet hates for decades.
For all the arguments for there's plenty against.
1. If you carry a second hooker on the bench then you're pretty much obliged to use him whether it's necessary or not.
2. Who's spot on the bench does he take ? Most teams have 2 props, one 2nd rower and a utility back / half.
3. If he has utility value e.g. can play second row or in the halves competently then there might be a spot for him but Robson's not your man being a specialist hooker and too small and unseasoned for second row just yet.
4. If your 2nd hooker plays a different style of footy ( which is extremely likely ) that means a lot of extra time at training to get the rest of the team up to speed for those differences. Possibly more set plays to learn.
5. my biggest beef - when do you swap them ? Why do you swap them ? A top coach might make the right call ( although I'd argue a smart coach would get himself a good 80 minute Hooker ) but what about Mary ? Does anyone on this forum think Mary could competently manage a second hooker on the bench ? He'd just throw him on with 7 minutes to go.
6. It's not necessary, McInnes is a great little hooker, he's 25 and improving all the time.

I wouldn't be against giving Robson a bench game here and there see how he goes but definitely not a permanent bench spot as a strategic move.

On Cam Smith - he's getting old and about to retire hence the game time for his possible replacement.

I can see your point of view but we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[True_Believer]

On Cam Smith - he's getting old and about to retire hence the game time for his possible replacement.

Last year, Cam smith played every game for 70 plus minutes - except for 2 (and excluding the bye and finals). One of those he was suspended and didn't play at all (round 11), and the other he played for 34 minutes at the end of the season (round 23). Cam Mc and Cam Smith pretty much played the same amount of minutes for the season except for the suspension. Cam Mc probably around 30 or so minutes more. Cook blitzed them both - but he does play a different game.

Brandon Smith played 58 minutes in round 11 and 35 in round 23. But across the season he played plenty of minutes off the bench (when he was selected) - even in those games where C Smith played 80 minutes.

I'm not sure who did what, but obviously one of them played in a different position during those games.

And as you say, it makes sense to get B Smith as much game time as possible as C Smith is about to retire.

You could argue that we could be doing the same thing. In our case you would have to move one to lock while the other was at Hooker (as they are both specialist Hookers and possible Locks, that is really the only options you have from what I can see). I believe Cam moved to lock for a couple of games earlier this season (when Hunt moved to Hooker) and in my opinion it wasn't a success. The other 2 options are Robson to Lock when he comes on - just to get game time - OR use at least 2 subs for a hooker rotation. I haven't seen Robson play Lock so I can't comment on that and wouldn't even speculate on his ability to perform in that role. I also haven't been able to find any quality defensive stats for last year, so it's hard to determine if Cam really does drop off towards the end of the year. He pretty much tops the tackle count every week, but I haven't seen anything that indicates how effective they are.

 

[Smurf]

Credit where credit is due
Cams line speed tonight was sensational

 

[Smack]

he's a machine, great defender for his size

 

[Life's Good]

McInnes was mighty tonight. Hit hard in defence & was pretty good out of dummy half. He didn’t get a lot of room because Manly were up off their line pretty quickly.

 

[Blood Shot Eyes]

McInnes was mighty tonight. Hit hard in defence & was pretty good out of Fake. He didn’t get a lot of room because Manly were up off their line pretty quickly.

A bit to quick mate...seriously they were off side most of the night....gutsy win but a lot of work still to be done.....used to be a Latimore fan but jeez hes slow...Im sure he plays in divers boots these days....great effort by Cam again tonite

 

[Smack]

he hit a bit of a dip when he wasn't selected for nsw, but he is back to his best and breaking the barrier

 

[gitano]

Fair enough, take our situation out of it and is argue there is absolutely value in rotating hookers.
1) Hooker is the most taxing position on the field. They touch the ball more than any other player, are the smallest player in the centre of the field and thus are targeted in defence, and they need to keep alert and in-fatigued to make decisions for the full game. Regardless of the ability to play 80 minutes, relief is often welcomed and fresh legs in that position can change the game more than any other. All top hookers bar Cook give up hooking minutes throughout the game - even Cam Smith took regular breaks from 9 last year, with Brandon Smith taking over.
2) The ‘point of difference’ isn’t about chasing points. Lifting the tempo of a game or slightly changing the threat from dummy half is valuable in any situation. Someone like Havili or Robson creates an instant threat for the defence to have to compress, creating more opportunities in attack. This isn’t the case with a change in halfback, 5/8 or fullback.
3) At the moment, our second string hooker has played less than 20 minutes of NRL. If McInnes goes down next game, we are f**ked. We should be pumping minutes into our next best option so we have genuine back up.
4) Bench rotation - to channel RufusRex, there are 8 interchanges. 4 of these should be rotating the props, which leaves 2 bench spots and 4 interchanges. Swapping the backline is pointless, and while one of the forwards should be able to shift to the edge, the second row is less taxing than hooker and lock. So these are the ideal positions to rotate. The best option is to have benchies who can fill multiple positions - either lock/edge, hooker/edge or lock/hooker. There’s also room in there for tactical subs. This should be the role we target for Lovodua, and why Havili would have been such a great asset, but in its simplest form if we are trying to best use the bench to relieve the most tiring positions with multi-skilled players, that definitely involves hooker!!

As mentioned, all top hookers (bar Cook, who’s defensive workload and quality is well below Cam) give up minutes at hooker regularly throughout the season. There’s a clear reason for that.

Lol at touch the ball more than any other player

 

[BennyV]

Lol at touch the ball more than any other player

You are really displaying your in depth footy knowledge.

 

[West coast dragon]

80 min hooker is quite rare I rang one last nite and she’d only do 60 mins