Moses Mbye

[I'm Hornby]

Korisau wasn’t average at all IMO .. he was very talented and starred in minimal appearances for souths in his first year…behind Isaac Luke and competing with Cook. then after a season at Penrith was nabbed by Manly and was one of there better players. He was 25 when the Panthers got him back,

Capewell didn’t set the world alight at the Sharks, who flagged after winning the comp. He only had 3 NRL seasons and was only 25 when signed by Penrith. Plenty of football in him.

Tetevano had a number of seasons at the Roosters and was a first grade selection in almost all games during his time there, in a prime era for them. An average player wouldn’t cut it. He was hardly average. He also played for NZ during this time. Then Penrith sign him at 27 , they only gave him one season. Who knows why, but he was hardly an average player..

Mbye is older than all those guys when signed by Penrith. He didn’t do much at the dogs and was regulating pushed around into different backline positions. The same story for him at the tigers. He’s not our solution at all IMO

Maybe so RE Mbye but none of those three were top level signings mate, they were all a case of a coach seeing potential and getting the best out of them.

Lets hope Hook has the same success with some of ours here.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Maybe so RE Mbye but none of those three were top level signings mate, they were all a case of a coach seeing potential and getting the best out of them.

Lets hope Hook has the same success with some of ours here.

I hope we get success too, we all want the same thing. Just different views on what’s needed to change the ordinariness we currently are.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

@Bring back John Fifita

We can expand this to a dragons example if you would like? Who were the top level recruits during the Bennett years?

Was it Boyd/Costigan who had played a couple of games for QLD in the same fashion as Molo/Su'a ie just over the last year or so?

Was it Weyman who had played 45 games for Canberra and no rep footy?

Or was it Jeremy Smith who had played a few games for NZ at the time he signed (less than how many games George Burgess has played for England might I add)?

Not that dissimilar to the calibre of player Hook is signing.

Good coaches sign players with potential and get them to fulfil their potential which I remain confident Hook can do with our signings/juniors.

A few things..

Bennett is one of the best coaches in history. Griffin is light years behind him.

Bennett had a core of top shelf players in his teams, he targeted them if they weren’t already at clubs when he moved….

The Dragons before he arrived had a good core of quality players in some areas, mainly backs, but were known as a club who had a “soft underbelly”… That’s what other clubs thought about them including the Broncos under Bennett.

so Bennett targeted hard-men to recruit to the club… not necessarily the superstars in their positions but tough, hard-nosed forwards to fix the “softness”…

Jeremy Smith was a tough, consistent, reliable, back rower with success at the Storm

Neville Costigan was a tough hit-man type of backrower who also got under the skin of the opposition.

Michael Weyman was a big burly front rower with a short fuse but could bowl over opposition defenders.

Beau Scott was a nasty, ugly, scrapper of a player targeted by Bennett to bring an arrogance to the pack and protect his 5/8 Soward…

Why do I suggest this??

Coz that’s what Bennett said. I had the amazing fortune to sit opposite Wayne Bennett at a breakfast where he was keynote speaker. In his speech he talked through his career, how he puts teams together, gets their performance at its peak. Amongst other topics he coveted. He had 500 guests mesmerised and I then got an insight why so many players I’d heard in the past say he’s the best coach by lightyears and they all wanted to play for him.

Then when he sat back down we had a good chat, others beside me as well but I shook his hand and thanked him for winning us a Comp when j never thought I’d see it. I asked him what he felt he had to do when he turned up..

He was very simple… he said the dragons had talent in many places and his job was to get their heads right. He also brought in a toughness that they needed in areas as they had a “soft underbelly” reputation. Those players above…. and he talked through why those players as I’ve mentioned above…

None of those players above was average when signed. They had a fierceness that the club was missing. None of Griffins signings so far could hold a candle to them, apart from McGuire. Bird has always had talent but horrific injuries… a shrewd signing though and seemingly paid off.

And he coached them to a competition victory, our first in 31 years…

Then after a bit more talk at the table, him answering questions… he should our hands and left…

but not before I made him laugh, saying “good luck coaching the horses”… (he’d just signed to go back there in favour of back to us)…that was one of the highlights of my life. Not just hearing him speak, sitting and chatting with him, but I made Wayne Bennett Laugh!

Anthony Griffin is not Wayne Bennett.

Wayne Bennett improves sides he heads to.

Anthony Griffin followed in his footsteps at the broncos, with all the systems in place to take over. He was sacked only a few seasons after.

He then went to Penrith with junior pathways established by Gould And his team, a bunch of emerging players were coming through competitions they’d won in the lower tiers. Griffin took over them as the club was bearing fruit.. Yet he was sacked - again…. Who knows exactly why.. but sacked he was.

I truly hope we get success again and I’d love Griffin to drive us to succeed.

Its unfair to compare Bennett to any other coach in the NRL bar Bellamy. But here..

When Bennett took over the Dragons I was extremely confident we’d win a comp.

When Griffin took over the dragons I’d never been less confident we would win a comp. I wasn’t confident we’d even go any better than the last few seasons… hopefully I’m wrong,

 

[thebigredv]

A few things..

Bennett is one of the best coaches in history. Griffin is light years behind him.

Bennett had a core of top shelf players in his teams, he targeted them if they weren’t already at clubs when he moved….

The Dragons before he arrived had a good core of quality players in some areas, mainly backs, but were known as a club who had a “soft underbelly”… That’s what other clubs thought about them including the Broncos under Bennett.

so Bennett targeted hard-men to recruit to the club… not necessarily the superstars in their positions but tough, hard-nosed forwards to fix the “softness”…

Jeremy Smith was a tough, consistent, reliable, back rower with success at the Storm

Neville Costigan was a tough hit-man type of backrower who also got under the skin of the opposition.

Michael Weyman was a big burly front rower with a short fuse but could bowl over opposition defenders.

Beau Scott was a nasty, ugly, scrapper of a player targeted by Bennett to bring an arrogance to the pack and protect his 5/8 Soward…

Why do I suggest this??

Coz that’s what Bennett said. I had the amazing fortune to sit opposite Wayne Bennett at a breakfast where he was keynote speaker. In his speech he talked through his career, how he puts teams together, gets their performance at its peak. Amongst other topics he coveted. He had 500 guests mesmerised and I then got an insight why so many players I’d heard in the past say he’s the best coach by lightyears and they all wanted to play for him.

Then when he sat back down we had a good chat, others beside me as well but I shook his hand and thanked him for winning us a Comp when j never thought I’d see it. I asked him what he felt he had to do when he turned up..

He was very simple… he said the dragons had talent in many places and his job was to get their heads right. He also brought in a toughness that they needed in areas as they had a “soft underbelly” reputation. Those players above…. and he talked through why those players as I’ve mentioned above…

None of those players above was average when signed. They had a fierceness that the club was missing. None of Griffins signings so far could hold a candle to them, apart from McGuire. Bird has always had talent but horrific injuries… a shrewd signing though and seemingly paid off.

And he coached them to a competition victory, our first in 31 years…

Then after a bit more talk at the table, him answering questions… he should our hands and left…

but not before I made him laugh, saying “good luck coaching the horses”… (he’d just signed to go back there in favour of back to us)…that was one of the highlights of my life. Not just hearing him speak, sitting and chatting with him, but I made Wayne Bennett Laugh!

Anthony Griffin is not Wayne Bennett.

Wayne Bennett improves sides he heads to.

Anthony Griffin followed in his footsteps at the broncos, with all the systems in place to take over. He was sacked only a few seasons after.

He then went to Penrith with junior pathways established by Gould And his team, a bunch of emerging players were coming through competitions they’d won in the lower tiers. Griffin took over them as the club was bearing fruit.. Yet he was sacked - again…. Who knows exactly why.. but sacked he was.

I truly hope we get success again and I’d love Griffin to drive us to succeed.

Its unfair to compare Bennett to any other coach in the NRL bar Bellamy. But here..

When Bennett took over the Dragons I was extremely confident we’d win a comp.

When Griffin took over the dragons I’d never been less confident we would win a comp. I wasn’t confident we’d even go any better than the last few seasons… hopefully I’m wrong,

Griffin wasn't even our first choice and that sums us up as a club ever since - losers. After being ditched by Fitzgibbon he was arguably the next best choice though so honestly what do you do?

As soon as the premiership ended we began to lose that fierceness you mentioned; blokes like J Smith and Costigan moving on, and before long we were a shadow of our former selves. Couldn't have predicted how bad it would get from there.

Post Wayne we got the worst of Steve Price but his connection to the best made sense at the time.

Mary's team initially an improvement and he fluked his way to two inexcusable extensions. He made a rod for his own back when he exclaimed he had the team he wanted.

Griffin was dumped with a mess of the appalling regime before him.

Right now there are some home truths that someone with authority has to lay out on the table and we need to face head on. Our stale board needs to completely be overhauled and we need to go in a brand new direction. For pure example, go all out for Brandon Smith and Joseph Manu, talent, class, from great systems. Weed out the present players who have toxic and mediocre written all over them. This has begun but is not going far enough. Hook can play his part whether it be short or long term in all this. If a better coach comes up we need to be in their staking our claim.

Who will be that leader, that truth teller?

I'm not necessarily prepared to call Hook a dud. There is no proof of that other then some questionable selections and an ambivalent player managership approach. My uncertainty is more about the rot above and below him. He's just caught in the middle doing a job no one else wants.

 

[redandwhite4evr]

Sorry if I hit a raw nerve.....Understand where you are coming from...All I wish is that people would give griffin & co a little time.... surely after 7 & 1/2 years of the last bloke, we can at least give him until the end of next year.

Appreciate your comments here and your input. At the end of the day we all want the same thing...success...Have a good evening and hopefully we can be competitive this weekend.

There's a "Sack Griffin" thread you won't find me in GS- at least not yet!- no coach deserves to be sacked with this Covid situation we're in-in fact, I believe it's fair that we should be extending his contract now, until 2023, as no one knows when normality will return. This is not to say that I agree with some of his decisions but he came to this club as a 60% winning coach and they're few and far between.

 

[Old Timer]

Interesting all the talk about Bennett and his recruitment and where is our next Weyman, Costigan, Scott etc etc

The game has changed markedly since then and the type of player you need has changed as well

All of the aforementioned would be penalised to death in the modern game similarly to Sims and Maguire are today so in a sort of fashion we already have similar style players and suffer as a result.

IMO what we really need is a few large, quick Polynesians that can sustain high impact footy for 20 minutes at a time and run over the top of some opposition small men and combine thst with creative halves that csn

Bennett was incredibly lucky that he could recruit who he did, and they could do what they did at a time where the game was far more tolerant of illegalities.

If any of the rules we hate so much today were enforced back then we would never have won the comp.

 

[muzby]

Interesting all the talk about Bennett and his recruitment and where is our next Weyman, Costigan, Scott etc etc

I’d give my middle testicle to add a weyman, Scott and costigan to our current squad this year.

 

[Old Timer]

I’d give my middle testicle to add a weyman, Scott and costigan to our current squad this year.

Could have racked up 60 suspensions on their own let alone go to a bbq.

 

[Trifili13]

Watched the olympic rugby 7's final tonight. Not sure if those fijians play in Europe or what sort of money they make if they have professional contracts, but some big tough boys and probably faster than Rava. Does the club look at the Pacific Islands for players or were we just lucky and Rava fell in our lap?

 

[Fordy20]

I think Maguire is the wrong coach for Mbye. I think under Des Hasler during Mbye's time at the Bulldogs from 2014-2018 (Hasler left at the end of 2017), Mbye was a very good, creative and versatile player. Ivan Cleary got him to the Tigers possibly mid season in 2018 and I think was doing ok under him. But under Maguire he has sort of come down a bit. His versatility made him ideal to slot into the fullback, centre, five eighth, half back and hooker positions at the Dogs and Tigers so if he can recapture some of his form when he was at the Dogs, he would come in handy for us as an all round utility player which is something we need.

You're right about Mbye being a handy pick up as a utility. He's good enough to fill in in a number of positions without being outstanding enough to keep another player out. He's a clean skin, speaks well and the Tigers would be willing to pay some freight.

I can't see him recapturing his Bulldogs form though. Even if a new coach and a new club sparks the enthusiasm he's been lacking, he just doesn't have the speed anymore. When he came across to the Tigers in 2018, that speed and his support play through the middle made him an upgrade on Lolohea.

Unfortunately, they both suffered from the same problem that many halves have when a coach tries to make them into a fullback: they don't have the bread and butter defensive skills required of the position. That's why after half a season in the #1 jersey, Maguire replaced him with Corey Thompson and went to market for a fullback.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Bennett, for all his mastery at coaching, hasn't won a premiership since 2010, thats now 11 years on.

The diffrence nowadays is the 'x-factor' pkayer or game 'influencer' or game changer. We don't have that player right now. You could argue Bennett had Gaz and the middle of the road pkayers went along for the ride, making them better players.

We saw a good example of this last Sunday, when Fifita came on, he basically changed the whole complexion of that game, and suddenly the whole of the Titans outfit lifted.

TJ at the Cows, Ponga at tge Knights, TTurbo at Manly, Tedesco at the Roosters, Cleary at the Panthers, the list goes on.

Do tge Dogs have that player? No but maybe next year
Do the Broncos? Possibly in Haas
Do the Tigers? Douhi maybe

All we have is potential, and that is only in our juniors coming through.

Who will he our x-factor, game changer, influencer moving ibto 2022 and beyond?

I think we have a vwry special player in Sloan and next year we will see why.

 

[thebigredv]

Not sure why we think an ok player who has reached his peak is what is needed to compliment this team.

I think maybe some are talking themselves into it because he'd simply be the only one willing to join this rabble without demanding big dollars.

We have enough 'meh' players.

If we are a strong team looking for some utility depth it could be perfect

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Interesting all the talk about Bennett and his recruitment and where is our next Weyman, Costigan, Scott etc etc

The game has changed markedly since then and the type of player you need has changed as well

All of the aforementioned would be penalised to death in the modern game similarly to Sims and Maguire are today so in a sort of fashion we already have similar style players and suffer as a result.

IMO what we really need is a few large, quick Polynesians that can sustain high impact footy for 20 minutes at a time and run over the top of some opposition small men and combine thst with creative halves that csn

Bennett was incredibly lucky that he could recruit who he did, and they could do what they did at a time where the game was far more tolerant of illegalities.

If any of the rules we hate so much today were enforced back then we would never have won the comp.

Hard-running Polynesians could help. So could Brandon Smith or a few other strong players..

Anything but mediocrity and / or self-interested dickheads… Mbye isn’t the latter… but the former perhaps..??

indeed the rules are different now to then. That’s a whole different thread in itself. But I differ in opinion that Bennett was “lucky”…

People WANT to play for Bennett. They’ll move clubs or follow him. They buy into him. Much like players WANT to play for the Storm. Roosters….

Hynes and Finucane, who signed for the Sharks from an outstanding club have all both said it’s Fitzgibbon who they bought into.

Fitzgibbon hasn’t coached first grade yet, has played for the Dragons…. Yet he didn’t want a bar of us….

So who WANTS to play for Griffin? Or the dragons as a whole??

So far, a bunch of ex broncos, a 3rd rate Eel forward, an Englishman looking to come back to the NRL after injury.,, and a guy Souths struggled to keep coz of salary cap…

Maybe we’ve signed mediocrity coz we’ve tried the quality players/coaches but they couldn’t be less interested in us. Like Fitzgibbon, Hynes, Finucane… or any number of others..

 

[Maddragon99]

We need a quality centre, Bird has been underwhelming for me particularly at the price it’ll take to extend him next year. Far too many errors for him to really have an impact. Williame is going, surely Beale’s gone, Max Feagai has fallen off the radar & Schiller isn’t in the top 30 yet. Mbye could play centre & utility, depending on the price he would be a useful addition.

 

[Maddragon99]

Watched the olympic rugby 7's final tonight. Not sure if those fijians play in Europe or what sort of money they make if they have professional contracts, but some big tough boys and probably faster than Rava. Does the club look at the Pacific Islands for players or were we just lucky and Rava fell in our lap?

Do they tackle using their arms or just shoulders?

 

[getsmarty]

Fitzgibbon hasn’t coached first grade yet, has played for the Dragons…. Yet he didn’t want a bar of us….

So who WANTS to play for Griffin? Or the dragons as a whole??

So far, a bunch of ex broncos, a 3rd rate Eel forward, an Englishman looking to come back to the NRL after injury.,, and a guy Souths struggled to keep coz of salary cap…

Maybe we’ve signed mediocrity coz we’ve tried the quality players but they couldn’t be less interested in us. Like Fitzgibbon, Hynes, Finucane… or any number of others..

Sorry, but with all due respect that is totally incorrect..Fitzgibbon agreed that he wouldn't leave the roosters early ( contracted til the end of 21 )....we needed a coach for this year....

Plain and simple....

Who wants to play for Griffin...according to a leak from the playing group (Red V Podcast ) they all do....along with Sua/Molo and a few more coming.
P.S we were never after Hynes...so again incorrect info...Finucane went to the sharks due the the Fitzgibbon connnection ( tick ) and on Bellamys advice. We gave it a good go.

We have had a total of 60 games suspensions this year...yes unbelievable...but true...

In reality, we should be fixed to the bottom of the ladder.

 

[muzby]

Could have racked up 60 suspensions on their own let alone go to a bbq.

My testicles don’t deal with hypothetical suspensions or flame grilled meat shenanigans..

We need those type of players, stat.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Sorry, but with all due respect that is totally incorrect..Fitzgibbon agreed that he wouldn't leave the roosters early ( contracted til the end of 21 )....we needed a coach for this year....

Plain and simple....

Who wants to play for Griffin...according to a leak from the playing group (Red V Podcast ) they all do....along with Sua/Molo and a few more coming.

we have had a total of 60 games suspensions this year...yes unbelievable...but true...

In reality, we should be fixed to the bottom of the ladder.

Like a coach has never left a club early to take up a new gig. And this was a promotion opportunity to first grade…

If our pitch was good enough, our offer strong enough, and our club attractive enough…

We could have Fitzgibbon in the chair rather than Griffin. He’s not though, and while yes that was given as a reason… if our pitch, offer and club was attractive… I’ve no doubt it’d be a different story..

As for injuries. Injuries equals excuses. And there’s more clubs out there who’ve had worse injuries n absences than us. I know you said suspensions , not injuries. I put most of the NRL suspensions on Peter Vlandys’ tyranny!

Especially Ravalawa!

#FreeRav

 

[getsmarty]

Like a coach has never left a club early to take up a new gig. And this was a promotion opportunity to first grade…

If our pitch was good enough, our offer strong enough, and our club attractive enough…

We could have Fitzgibbon in the chair rather than Griffin. He’s not though, and while yes that was given as a reason… if our pitch, offer and club was attractive… I’ve no doubt it’d be a different story..

As for injuries. Injuries equals excuses. And there’s more clubs out there who’ve had worse injuries n absences than us.

You can make up your own narrative....This info is from someone who is involved @ the roosters....We made approaches and he agreed to honour his contract with the Roosters...He would not have left for ANY OTHER CLUB...FACT...

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

You can make up your own narrative....This info is from someone who is involved @ the roosters....We made approaches and he agreed to honour his contract with the Roosters...He would not have left for ANY OTHER CLUB...FACT...

Its not my narrative - it's how deals are done...

Fitzgibbon turned us down, for whatever reason.

If we really wanted Fitzgibbon, a former player of ours who comes with a pedigree of support coaching under one of the games best in Robinson, one of the best clubs in the last decade - winning Multiple premierships, if our club was truly smart they'd find a way...

Some options...

Either

- make "the offer he can't refuse" now (which does not automatically mean spending a fortune) and see if a respectful deal can be done with the Roosters to leave a year early....

Or,

- if as you say is fact, he respectfully wanted to see out his contract at the Roosters - quite honorable of him. Then secure him for for Season 2022... and asap.

That's the two positions to take. Maybe the Dragons mgmt did do this, maybe not... Whatever the case our mgmt was not smart enough or attractive enough for Fitzgibbon. Whataver offers were made, they were rejected.

And with regard to "we needed a coach in 2021"..... yep. We already had a coach signed for that year. Paul McGregor.... (cue the fiery fans out there smelling McGregor bait!!). The club paid him out a season early - at a time when finances of the game and club were shafted from Covid.... That's tongue in cheek from me a bit, any mention of Mary always gets dragons fans making noise and spitting like a dog barking at the postman...

But..... We also had Shane Flanagan and Dean Young. Flanagan, like Fitzgibbon, knows what success looks like. Out of the ashes of the Peptides drama and former issues at the club, he led the Sharks to their first ever title. Sign him for a year - which he'd have no doubt accepted, keep on Dean Young as a support - who also knows what Success looks like - playing in our last title..... And get Fitzgibbon the next year...

There - you've got an interim year led by two people who've seen premiership successes, to be followed by one of the best renowned support coaches who's been at one of the two most successful club of the last decade.

Maybe that was the strategy. Maybe it wasnt. But whatever the strategy was or wasnt - Fitzgibbon declined for his own reasons. He rejected the Dragons.

And instead of the Scenario of having 2 x Coaches who've seen premiership success developing the squad for a year into possibly the best support coach involved with multiple premierships taking over in 2022..... (would have been my overwhelming preference).....

We had the choice of 3 x coaches (Griffin, Henry, Furner), who've all been sacked.... and only one (Furner) whos been involved in a team that's won a premiership - and that was last century...

We took Griffin, who brought in Matt Elliott... who's also not won premiership, and felt the rough end of the sack... That didn't fill be with any confidence at the time but I was hopeful. Now as it stands - no one in our club has been involved in a first grade premiership that I can think of (I could be mistaken).... When Burgess arrives next year, that will be one.

However or whatever the reason - our board didn't get the job done, the guy we approached turned us down. Now Fitzgibbon will lead one of our rivals next season, and he's already brought 2 x star players from the other most successful club of last decade - the Storm - to join him. There's a coach and 2 top level players who know what a premiership team looks like and the standards needed to get there. We don't have any of that.

It's not fact, but my theory is they weren't savvy enough and/or attractive enough to secure Fitzgibbon. We now will see how Griffin goes next season. But for now - we are no better than we were 12 months ago. Only different.