Non Footy Chat Thread II

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

I had a really interesting conversation with an Indigenous bloke at work a while back.

The gist of it (and I'm fully prepared to be assaulted by any social media activists we may have here) was that he and his mates feel like there is a big victim complex in Indigenous society and that sometimes you've gotta let the past be the past because if you don't it damages the future.

It was kind of interesting to hear that from an Indigenous kid, because in some ways it smacks of some of the stuff that outsiders have said and immediately been hounded for. But at the risk of sounding insensitive it does make a certain kind of sense, although I'm sure I agree entirely.

I think what this emphasises is that Indigenous people and communities differ considerably. In the late 90s I did about 18 months consulting work for the then ATSIC, which involved talking to people for downtown Sydney to the back of Port Headland to Cape York. There certainly is a solid core of people who think like the bloke you mention. There are also people who find themselves in a pretty helpless and hopeless situation. And then there are those who are just sick of being told what to do by some well-meaning, but basically selfish non-indigenous 'do-gooders'. It's a bloody difficult call, but as long as people act in good faith and are prepared to listen to alternate opinions, we are on the right path.

 

[Bazal]

Gay suicide certainly shouldn't have anything to do with it. The fundamental reason for resistance to homosexuality throughout history (including why we invented and embraced religions that persecuted the act) is because it is quite obviously 'wrong' to many people. Putting aside moral judgements, I mean it is wrong in the sense that the drive to procreate has been 'rewired' to something that makes people feel deeply uncomfortable. It is unsurprising that some of the people so rewired should also feel deeply uncomfortable by it.

So I understand homosexuality is no longer officially a mental illness but it was once aberrant enough that it was considered so. Were mental health professionals wrong then or are they wrong now? Either way how can you not see that people would resist something so disturbing from being celebrated via marriage?

And like you I voted Yes (no, really). But this is because my views of homosexuality, marriage and government are compatible with the Yes vote. But people with different views on either marriage or government could understandably and without malice vote No. It's their right and they don't deserve to be bullied.

Well the old ones were wrong because homosexuality isn't a mental thing. Nor is it confined to humans.

I would also say that thinking it's "wrong" is different to thinking it's wrong. There are plenty of hetero sex acts that make me go "ew", so it's not an issue to be turned off by it, as it were. Nor does it make someone homophobic IMO. But I'm not going to suggest people not be allowed to get married because they have a pissing fetish, even though I think that's weird and gross and just wrong.

What is an issue is thinking that people are less than you are because of their sexuality.

Voting no because "ew" is homophobic not because of the "ew", but because you are voting to prevent gay people from being your equal because you find them off-putting.

Obviously that's a general "you", not a Pou you.

 

[Kornstar]

To you maybe. Pretty much to me as well, for the record. I think marriage is an archaic convention...But it's not worthless to everyone, and it's not about the piece of paper itself but the right to be recognised under the law. As you said, it was important to your wife.

When i say worthless, i mean in the scheme of things. It wasn't important to my wife for religious reasons but being a princess for a day was the driving force. I get the feeling that if all the other rights were recognised under the law they would still want marriage.

Realistically it'll probably do a bit of both. It's a step towards greater acceptance. Plenty of young people who commit suicide do so in part because of their sexuality and the issues surrounding that, but again it's not really about either issue. It's more that these are people who have all the same rights as us under law but we're denying them equal status as people, in the same way Indigenous Australians were.

Unfortunately even if the law is passed there will be plenty of suicide over being gay. If you are gay in the wrong place where there are too many hill billy hicks that oppose gay people then having the right to marry won't do shit.

You still can't compare it to the way the Indigenous people were treated. I am ashamed to be white with the way they were treated, it is f**king appalling!

This is basically the view a decent person should have. I have a stake in this in that it affects some of my best mates, but even if I didn't I'd vote yes for this exact reason. That's why I believe it's so petty and ridiculous to vote no because of a text message (for example). Voting yes or no doesn't affect the person who's voting no, all it does is punish someone for having the audacity to be the subject of a campaign that mildly irritated this person. I can't understand that level of pettiness, honestly

Yeah, I would never ask anyone how they voted, or expect them to tell me. But I also think if someone openly says (as so many are on social media) that they are going to vote/have voted no, they shouldn't get upset when people question that. Of course, the government should also never have put people in this position in the first place...

If the vote comes back in favour of no does that mean the government was wrong to hold it? Just curious.

For the record i don't believe it will come back in favour of the no vote but i think it will be surprising to some how many people are against it.

 

[Bazal]

I think what this emphasises is that Indigenous people and communities differ considerably. In the late 90s I did about 18 months consulting work for the then ATSIC, which involved talking to people for downtown Sydney to the back of Port Headland to Cape York. There certainly is a solid core of people who think like the bloke you mention. There are also people who find themselves in a pretty helpless and hopeless situation. And then there are those who are just sick of being told what to do by some well-meaning, but basically selfish non-indigenous 'do-gooders'. It's a bloody difficult call, but as long as people act in good faith and are prepared to listen to alternate opinions, we are on the right path.

Personally I think there has to be a time when we say enough is enough. I think in a lot of ways trying to help can be just as damaging as what was done in the past, because it creates new problems like reliance or even perception issues. I think at some point it'll come down to leaving well enough alone as much as possible and just treating Indigenous people like normal people because they are.

Unfortunately there are so many bleeding hearts out there who think that we need to "repair" the damage done, but I don't think you can as an outsider. I think you can acknowledge it, and we certainly don't do that enough, but I don't think you can repair it and I think a lot of problems come from trying to do that. There's too much "us and them" about it all.

Definitely change the date though.

 

[Bazal]

When i say worthless, i mean in the scheme of things. It wasn't important to my wife for religious reasons but being a princess for a day was the driving force. I get the feeling that if all the other rights were recognised under the law they would still want marriage.

Yeah but it's important to different people for different reasons. I agree, I think it's pretty worthless, but when I split I was lucky to be in a situation where we both agreed to take what was ours and split everything up. And we had no kids. There are plenty of legal advantages to being married, even outside what might happen if a marriage fails. Medical rights are a big one.

Unfortunately even if the law is passed there will be plenty of suicide over being gay. If you are gay in the wrong place where there are too many hill billy hicks that oppose gay people then having the right to marry won't do shit.

This is sadly true. But I also think that treating people equally as a blanket thing, like marriage rights, does help in the long term with equality and so forth. There's something about everyone having the same rights that normalises things, you know? Obviously it won't help everyone, but it's also a huge step in the right direction.

You still can't compare it to the way the Indigenous people were treated. I am ashamed to be white with the way they were treated, it is f**king appalling!

Absolutely. Although I'm not ashamed to be white, but it was absolutely appalling. I'm glad for the ancestry stuff my family has done because I can take comfort in the fact that my family never played a part in it. At least not that we can tell.

That being said, look into the gay murders in Sydney over the years. Or gay panic. They've had it rough themselves....thankfully not in the same way as the Indigenous folks.

But again, the point as I read it was that the laws themselves (which basically deny some rights to sections of society based on race or sexuality) are comparable, not the situations of the people.

If the vote comes back in favour of no does that mean the government was wrong to hold it? Just curious.

For the record i don't believe it will come back in favour of the no vote but i think it will be surprising to some how many people are against it.

Yeah it does for mine. This is the kind of stuff that should be handled in parliament. No other country has handled it this way, and I think we can see how damaging it's been with the slanging matches going around it.

And I do think that it's geared towards the No voters so I wouldn't be surprised...young people don't use the mail!

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Well the old ones were wrong because homosexuality isn't a mental thing. Nor is it confined to humans.

Yet pedophilia is still a mental illness. I'd say sexuality is quite obviously mental.

I would also say that thinking it's "wrong" is different to thinking it's wrong. There are plenty of hetero sex acts that make me go "ew", so it's not an issue to be turned off by it, as it were. Nor does it make someone homophobic IMO. But I'm not going to suggest people not be allowed to get married because they have a pissing fetish, even though I think that's weird and gross and just wrong.

What is an issue is thinking that people are less than you are because of their sexuality.

Voting no because "ew" is homophobic not because of the "ew", but because you are voting to prevent gay people from being your equal because you find them off-putting.

Obviously that's a general "you", not a Pou you.

I agree in the sense that I think everyone should have the same rights, including impoverished non-Indigenous folk, men faced with an unwanted pregnancy, and 'children' aged 17 and 364 days not being held responsible for all of their actions.

The fact is that plenty of people in society believe not all rights should be extended to all people because they simply don't need them.

Here's a question - should two straight men (or women) be entitled to get married in order to access the legal benefits?

 

[Bazal]

Yet pedophilia is still a mental illness. I'd say sexuality is quite obviously mental.

I think comparing paedophilia to homosexuality is disingenuous. It's a paraphilia, not a sexuality. Compare it to necrophilia instead, for example.

I agree in the sense that I think everyone should have the same rights, including impoverished non-Indigenous folk, men faced with an unwanted pregnancy, and 'children' aged 17 and 364 days not being held responsible for all of their actions.

The fact is that plenty of people in society believe not all rights should be extended to all people because they simply don't need them.

I think men should be able to disavow an unwanted pregnancy. And they should be able to prevent an abortion if they wish to nut up and raise the kid alone.

I think everyone of legal age should have the same rights. I also think that people who want all the rights available to them, but want to deny those rights to others, are not properly equipped to make those decisions.

Here's a question - should two straight men (or women) be entitled to get married in order to access the legal benefits?

Why not? Men and women can and do marry each other for that reason, it's no different.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

Should marriage provide any legal benefits? Why does it?

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

And if the Yes vote gets up what will that mean for the Torres Straight Islands?

 

[strider]

Anyway there's more important things happening now.

What every Australian has been crying out for has finally happened. We can rejoice at last.

Matthew Wade has been dropped from the Aussie cricket side!

Tho i do think we should have had a referrendum about it

 

[Bazal]

Tho i do think we should have had a referrendum about it

I think for the sake of Wadey's sanity that's probably not a great idea...can you imagine the response??

105% in favour of his axing because some merkins voted twice

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I think comparing paedophilia to homosexuality is disingenuous. It's a paraphilia, not a sexuality. Compare it to necrophilia instead, for example.

A matter of definitions is called semantics.

I think men should be able to disavow an unwanted pregnancy. And they should be able to prevent an abortion if they wish to nut up and raise the kid alone.

I think everyone of legal age should have the same rights. I also think that people who want all the rights available to them, but want to deny those rights to others, are not properly equipped to make those decisions.

Who wants the right to marry members of the same sex while denying others that right?

Why not? Men and women can and do marry each other for that reason, it's no different.

So maybe marriage has no place in policy these days. Would that debate be less polarising?

 

[Bazal]

So maybe marriage has no place in policy these days. Would that debate be less polarising?

I'm not sure ANY debate would be any less polarising in the current political climate. The left/right fanbois will say something, and the right/left fanbois will immediately form the opposite opinion and attack the other side for it....politics has become a spectator sport.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

It's funny because it's true. I blame social media. Bringing the world together and showing everyone what merkins we all are.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

f**k off. I'm only a merkin when I'm awake.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

Of course that's most of the time, as I find it difficult to sleep with all the merkinish things I do...

 

[strider]

Of course that's most of the time, as I find it difficult to sleep with all the merkinish things I do...

You're a bad seed man

 

[Bazal]

Personally I'm much more of a merkin when I'm sleeping...some of the shit I dream about, my god...

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

Hey it's the Bourne movie without Bourne. That Fight Club guy is gonna be laying down some pretty serious jargon.

 

[I'm a loser baby...]

Don't get stupid Not Jason Bourne!