NRL club bosses back Kiwis vs Polynesian All Stars during origin

[Revelation 3:20]

Should be Maoris v Islanders! Mean!

 

[Quidgybo]

I maintain the criteria is dead simple...

Islanders Origin - If you're eligible to play for a Pacific island nation then you play for the Islanders. It doesn't matter if you have dual elgibility for the Kiwis or State of Origin.

New Zealand Origin - if you're eligible to play for the Kiwis and not eligible to play for a Pacific island nation then you play for the New Zealand team.

There is no ambiguity in that criteria. In fact you could even extend it to State of Origin to ensure the same rules apply across both series. If you're eligible to play for a Pacific Island nation then that's the Origin team and series you play in regardless of what nation you go on to play for at Test level.

Leigh.

 

[Martli]

You guys are missing the point.
Who said anything about Polynesian
Islanders! covers the whole lot!

Yeah you're right. To be honest I was just going by PI = Polynesian; my own ignorance really.

 

[Revelation 3:20]

Having a Kiwi team would dilute the importance/ Mana of the real Kiwis team.
Thats why it should be Maori v Islanders

 

[Lossy]

Having a Kiwi team would dilute the importance/ Mana of the real Kiwis team.
Thats why it should be Maori v Islanders

So the proposed NZ Origin team, the mooted sister to the Aussie's State of Origin, maybe one day to become as important to us, should exclude any player who is not Maori? Giving Maori the option of turning out for Kiwi origin, the Kiwis, or NZ Maori, and anyone else just the Kiwis?

 

[Skinner]

The whole thing is a poor idea. They can stick their origin concept.

 

[mean_maori_mean]

I do hate how aussies & aussie league fraternity loosely throughing around
Even the polynesian people themselves in aussie - interchange poly/ PI / Kiwi / islander as if they were exactly same term.

And I while must admit it was a BIG step in getting indigenous australian team setup and give props for that.
NRL IS A TRANS-TASMAN COMPETITION - ISNT IT
Its about time NRL starting treating it like such and having a bit more consultation regarding such mater rather than just consulting Nigel Vagana.
Who is only one man - and he has samoa RL interest at heart.

I dont think maori get enought recognition as being indigenous people of New Zealand and stop getting mentioned as islanders or grouped together as polynesians.
i.e maori are their own category that would be the day they play for a polynesian team.
ARL/NRL need to recognise NZ Maori have a heritage and history much greater than NSW and QLD before trying to create some bogus teams.

Why would NZRL want this (particularly in the proposed format)?
It would promote more kiwi islanders to play for the islands nations (under many of the proposed formats).

NRL / ARL should just bite the bullet and let uate play for NSW and fiji etc.

A NZ Maori v Islander match would be perfect both for even spread of talent.
As a development tool for NZRL aswell as great money earner & spectacle allround.

Then decide where to through fien, mannering (assuming they dont have maori or island heritage).
Maybe NZ maori + european descent (first to immigtate) v islanders.

or more likely

NZ Maori v the rest (which would essentially be an island team).

 

[mean_maori_mean]

I maintain the criteria is dead simple...

Islanders Origin - If you're eligible to play for a Pacific island nation then you play for the Islanders. It doesn't matter if you have dual elgibility for the Kiwis or State of Origin.

New Zealand Origin - if you're eligible to play for the Kiwis and not eligible to play for a Pacific island nation then you play for the New Zealand team.

There is no ambiguity in that criteria. In fact you could even extend it to State of Origin to ensure the same rules apply across both series. If you're eligible to play for a Pacific Island nation then that's the Origin team and series you play in regardless of what nation you go on to play for at Test level.

Leigh.

So lets say an up and coming Kiwi islander like Mose Masoe plays for Islanders one year - then makes end of year kiwis squad who does he play for next year - what he changes teams?lol

You cant extend like that though . . .

Some Australians and ARL need to come to fact - islanders can be just as australian as slater, lockyer and why should the fact they are islanders affect their ability to represent their state.

MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN STATE & COUNTRY and will help the situation.

 

[Quidgybo]

So lets say an up and coming Kiwi islander like Mose Masoe plays for Islanders one year - then makes end of year kiwis squad who does he play for next year - what he changes teams?

He plays for Islanders. Under my criteria the New Zealand Origin side is not the Kiwis. It is a state/provincial level side of players who are eligible to play for the Kiwis, but are not eligible to play for a Pacific island nation.

A player who plays for the Islanders at state/provincial level remains an Islander even if he goes on to play for the Kiwis, Australia or any other country at international level. If he was eligible to play for a Pacific Island nation at the time he is first selected then he can play for the Islanders. Once an Islander, always an Islander.

MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEEN STATE & COUNTRY and will help the situation.

I just did. Representing the Islanders at State/Provincial level has no affect on your elgibility to play for another country at Test level. And vice versa.

Leigh.

 

[mean_maori_mean]

He plays for Islanders. Under my criteria the New Zealand Origin side is not the Kiwis. It is a state/provincial level side of players who are eligible to play for the Kiwis, but are not eligible to play for a Pacific island nation.

A player who plays for the Islanders at state/provincial level remains an Islander even if he goes on to play for the Kiwis, Australia or any other country at international level. If he was eligible to play for a Pacific Island nation at the time he is first selected then he can play for the Islanders. Once an Islander, always an Islander.


I just did. Representing the Islanders at State/Provincial level has no affect on your elgibility to play for another country at Test level. And vice versa.

Leigh.

So under your criteria.
selection is basically NZ maori + any non-polynesianor melanesian Versus Islanders.
That I agree but you need to make the teams mean something.
Reason why I always refer back to NZ Maori is they have 100 years history as a team.

You need to make teams mean something for people to watch & for players to want to play.

As for the other part I was referring to state of origin.
You cant expect NZRL and NZ to create their own origin just to take the heat of the likes of civoneceva, hayne and uate to retain the ability to rep. island nations and nsw or queensland.

 

[shinobi]

You guys are missing the point.
Who said anything about Polynesian
Islanders! covers the whole lot!

The article refers to players of polynesian origin.

BENJI MARSHALL, Feleti Mateo and the best Kiwi and Polynesian players could soon get a chance to experience a State of Origin style contest.

And Mean Maori i disagree we (Maori) are Polynesian of course we are unique but we are also closely related to our brothers and sisters from the islands. I mean after all where did our waka that brought our ancestors to Aotearoa come from?

 

[mean_maori_mean]

The article refers to players of polynesian origin.

BENJI MARSHALL, Feleti Mateo and the best Kiwi and Polynesian players could soon get a chance to experience a State of Origin style contest.

And Mean Maori i disagree we (Maori) are Polynesian of course we are unique but we are also closely related to our brothers and sisters from the islands. I mean after all where did our waka that brought our ancestors to Aotearoa come from?

Shinobi,
I have never questioned the close relationship as it goes without saying.
For those maori that do doubt such things a visit to rarotonga will open your eyes.

But as indigenous peoples of NZ in a trans-tasman compeition (NRL) deserve rights a la indigenous australians.
Particularly with 100 years of history and important role in rugby league in NZ.

but most of all I also (would) resent aussie NRL officials & club ceo's trying to catergorise or set selection standard for such game.

However we can celebrate this link by playing them in a such game.
essentially a NZ selection trial however I would allow any island representative with links to New Zealand e.g harrison hansen if on merit they deserved selection.

And if that the case then push for ARL to change their policy to let players like mateo, uate play for tonga & fiji respect. and still be available for selection for NSW.

I will again and again state any team with 100 years of history deserves the opportunity to continue to carry on.

 

[Quidgybo]

You need to make teams mean something for people to watch & for players to want to play.

They'll mean something because they'll be dominated by professional NRL and SL players and the contests will be equal of Origin in skill and intensity. If you really want to add some spice get rid of the Anzac Test and have the winner of the New Zealand Origin vs Islanders series play the winner of State of Origin in a Origin Final match. Give them the opportunity to prove their winner is as good as the State of Origin winner and allow them to win respect and attention for their series.

You cant expect NZRL and NZ to create their own origin just to take the heat of the likes of civoneceva, hayne and uate to retain the ability to rep. island nations and nsw or queensland.

Once selected for NSW, QLD, New Zealand Origin or the Islanders, that's your state/provincial level team. You can't switch. Who you get selected for has no affect on your international eligibility. The ARL might choose to still only select Kangaroos from the State of Origin series but I'm sure the Kiwis will have no such qualms at selecting dual eligible players from the Islanders.

And eventually you will have someone who plays for the Kangaroos before playing Origin and then chooses to play for the Islanders at state/provincial level because they have dual eligibility. At that point the ARL will have a choice, either stop selecting him for the Kangaroos or drop their self imposed ban and select from either series for eligible players.

Leigh

 

[roopy]

This game and the All Stars game have both been proposed by club directors - and they both have exactly the same goal - they are designed to give star players a chance to make extra money outside the club structure. Basically, they are a way to keep stars in Rugby league by boosting their earning potential.
Australian qualified players can already earn big dollars in SOO games, and this just about covers all the other stars in the game.

 

[nadera78]

Okay there seems to be some confusion as to what is being proposed here. Is it a game between the New Zealand national side and a Pacific XIII made up of players who play for Tonga, Cooks, Samoa, Fiji, PNG, etc? Or is it a game for NZ eligible players of different heritage, ie Islander ancestry v Maori/Pakeha ancestry?

The former seems like a decent idea, but it's not actually an Origin game. It's a sort of Test match, and could get good media, comercial and spectator interest. The latter looks like a very complicated way of doing things and will only lead to confusion, especially if players are playing for other nations in between.

If the NZRL want an origin-style game then north v south island / auckland v the rest would be much simpler and more coherent ways of organising things. An interesting alternative could be a 3-way series; Maori, Islanders, Pakeha. All players being eligible for NZ of course. The white boys might get a it of a caning but I'm sure they'd give it a big shot.

 

[lturner]

This sounds like a good idea. The eligibility rules are something for the Kiwis and Islanders to work out, so I can't comment.

But one thing is important - the current rules about State of Origin and national selection must not be compromised. If you are eligible for the Australian team you must be eligible for NSW or Queensland and vice versa.

It's pretty simple. The states are part of Australia, therefore you can't be a Queenslander but then not be an Australian. I realise there are some people who have divided loyalties because they were born in one place and raised in another, or because of where their parents were born. These players have to choose and whatever choice they make must be applied consistently across state and national representative games.

Allowing players to pick and choose different eligibility for state level and test level dilutes the meaning and purpose of representative football.

 

[PaulyTom]

Great Concept.
Have the game on the Tuesday night and the S.O.O on the Wednesday night. It would be another bonanza for TV. 3 game series like S.O.O.

1 in Auckland and Wellington and one in the South Island. Trial it in Christchurch and then alternate it through cities year to year.

 

[The Observer]

While its positive that the NRL clubs are looking to give a rep fixture to NZ and the Pacific, I have several concerns with this proposal.

1) The concept's relation to NZRL. The NZRL already developed an All Stars style game two years before the NRL: the All Golds (NZ Kiwis in another incarnation) vs Aotearoa Maori in October 2008. Graham Lowe already pitched an Origin style representative match in Kiwi Roots, North vs South: basically Auckland (& Northland) versus the rest of NZ, in 2007. Kiwi Roots and All Golds were developed by New Zealanders and the NZRL, and they are arguably more worthy because they relate to the culture and history of NZ and to the efforts of the NZRL. However they seem to have not been acknowledged. Has the NZRL been spoken to with respect to this.

2) Player release - player release would be relatively convenient for the NRL clubs, because the games may be scheduled to fit into State of Origin windows, but far less so for Super League clubs. SL clubs could be reluctant (and justifiably so) to release Pacific or Kiwi players if they fit into NRL but not SL windows. In particular, Pacific players would need to travel the 9 time zones up to three times, mid-season, and be affected by travel demands and jet lag. It could pull players out of SL duty for up to 6 rounds. A large proportion of elite Pacific players are based in the Super League, players like Tony Puletua, Meli, Hansen, Faiumu

3) Rather than being closely tied to the culture and history of NZ and the NZRL (as the All Golds -Maori game was, and as the Indigenous All Stars game is to Australia's culture), this proposal has an exhibition game feel to it.

I'd suggest this:

Weekend after Origin 1 - Kiwi Roots Game 1
Weekend after Origin 2 - Kiwi Roots Game 2
Weekend after Origin 3 - All Golds vs Aotearoa Maori. The timing could celebrates Matariki, the Maori new year.

As for the combined Pacific team, it is an excellent idea, and I would like to see a combined Pacific team play against the Kiwis, the Kangaroos and England. However, access to players would be easier to achieve for all parties, were the game staged after the NRL/SL seasons, in a revamped test window.

 

[bender]

While its positive that the NRL clubs are looking to give a rep fixture to NZ and the Pacific, I have several concerns with this proposal.

1) The concept's relation to NZRL. The NZRL already developed an All Stars style game two years before the NRL: the All Golds (NZ Kiwis in another incarnation) vs Aotearoa Maori in October 2008. Graham Lowe already pitched an Origin style representative match in Kiwi Roots, North vs South: basically Auckland (& Northland) versus the rest of NZ, in 2007. Kiwi Roots and All Golds were developed by New Zealanders and the NZRL, and they are arguably more worthy because they relate to the culture and history of NZ and to the efforts of the NZRL. However they seem to have not been acknowledged. Has the NZRL been spoken to with respect to this.

2) Player release - player release would be relatively convenient for the NRL clubs, because the games may be scheduled to fit into State of Origin windows, but far less so for Super League clubs. SL clubs could be reluctant (and justifiably so) to release Pacific or Kiwi players if they fit into NRL but not SL windows. In particular, Pacific players would need to travel the 9 time zones up to three times, mid-season, and be affected by travel demands and jet lag. It could pull players out of SL duty for up to 6 rounds. A large proportion of elite Pacific players are based in the Super League, players like Tony Puletua, Meli, Hansen, Faiumu

3) Rather than being closely tied to the culture and history of NZ and the NZRL (as the All Golds -Maori game was, and as the Indigenous All Stars game is to Australia's culture), this proposal has an exhibition game feel to it.

I'd suggest this:

Weekend after Origin 1 - Kiwi Roots Game 1
Weekend after Origin 2 - Kiwi Roots Game 2
Weekend after Origin 3 - All Golds vs Aotearoa Maori. The timing could celebrates Matariki, the Maori new year.

As for the combined Pacific team, it is an excellent idea, and I would like to see a combined Pacific team play against the Kiwis, the Kangaroos and England. However, access to players would be easier to achieve for all parties, were the game staged after the NRL/SL seasons, in a revamped test window.

I think you need to really take what you can get with the NRL/ARL. Without debating the merits of either proposal, this game has a realistic proposal of being successful. It seems to have far more support than the Kiwi Roots proposal garnered, from the NRL clubs, which is a large part of the success of any concept even if most of us dont agree.

I think it needs 100% attacked while the iron is hot. There is time for tinkering with Rules, eligibility issues etc, after the format is confirmed, in coming years. Either format has the potential to succeed, but it wont if there is too much time spent on largely inconsequential things such as eligibility. It is much better for the game to be set in stone and then concentration to start on promotion of these games.

This concept will really go through the roof, if one or two PNG locals make the side and have a blinder. I would love to see the venues look something like this for the first series:
Game 1 - Wellington Game 2 - Christchurch, GAme 3 Port Moresby.

Hopefully the ESL will come into line and also play rep games on this weekend, so that we can eventually work towards three mid year representative weekends per year.

 

[Hollywood Jesus]

If it was just a Kiwi Origin team vs anyone eligible for Islands (Quidgy's idea) then the Kiwis would get smashed. A non-PI Kiwi team would barely be able to be scraped together.

If it is Kiwi Intnl. team vs PI combined then you have the problem of players switching from one camp to another depending on whether they make the Kiwi squad that year.

The answer is simple - take the second option and lock in eligibility for life.

Many won't like the idea but it's the only way to avoid confusion. If the PI nations the get regular end-of-season Tests it's all sweet. This means the Pac Cup needs to be an annual event as a qualifier for the 4/5 Nations, or make it bi-annual and organise trips to Europe to ensure the same teams aren't playing each other every year (whichever floats your boat and is economically feasible).