NRL Expansion. Ideas and opinions.

[Walter sobchak]

St’s are the only team to be drawing a decent regular crowd avg at suburban ground in Sydney this year, not sure why you’d move them to the gong where crowds are lower?

Are crowds not lower at Wollongong because they feel like the lesser part of the merger in terms of number of games allocated??

 

[Walter sobchak]

Northern eagles crowd avg was very poor so no real evidence they would.

Was it worse than what they get now??

 

[greenBV4]

Was it worse than what they get now??

in the last year yeah, but not the first 2

this was their average at Central Coast

their current average at Brookvale is 8636
interesting to see the last year when crowds were the worst the CC only got 4 games, it seems like its an area that either wants a full time team or nothing at all

 

[Diesel]

Manly need to move to CC or at least somewhere in the North Sydney area and pitch themselves as a northern Sydney team. They’re on borrowed time ATM

 

[flippikat]

Manly need to move to CC or at least somewhere in the North Sydney area and pitch themselves as a northern Sydney team. They’re on borrowed time ATM

The crazy thing is that they had a chance to be the team for Northern Sydney *and* the Central Coast - even when the Northern Eagles fell over, and the license reverted to Manly, but they retreated to the safety of their suburban enclave & "Fortress Brookvale".

 

[taipan]

if Manly became a Gosford/Manly based franchise.:-

They'd need to sit down and analyse how to apportion games to each ground, in order to gain the best crowd numbers.
I'd envisage Gosford having the likes of the Knights,Tigers,Roosters,Storm,Broncos,Raiders playing there.
At Brookvale Canterbury,Dragons,Eels,,Penrith Sharks,Souths
Any possible Brookvale shortfall in crowds ,more than made up by Gosford's contribution.

You cannot leave Manly W area as a rugby league vacuum, with no games there.

 

[flippikat]

if Manly became a Gosford/Manly based franchise.:-

They'd need to sit down and analyse how to apportion games to each ground, in order to gain the best crowd numbers.
<snipped idea for what games at what venue>
Any possible Brookvale shortfall in crowds ,more than made up by Gosford's contribution.

You cannot leave Manly W area as a rugby league vacuum, with no games there.

The problem then becomes "is it worth putting the money into upgrade Brookvale for half a schedule of home games?"

I'm starting to think the best solution may be Manly reaching out to try and be a "whole of North Shore" club- not just the beaches, playing out of a revamped Brookvale (or at least somewhere north of the bridge), with the Central Coast either having 1 or 2 home games for Manly moved there.. or having a different Sydney club relocate to Gosford while Manly stay put (Roosters? Tigers?? ).

 

[Stallion]

The problem then becomes "is it worth putting the money into upgrade Brookvale for half a schedule of home games?"

I'm starting to think the best solution may be Manly reaching out to try and be a "whole of North Shore" club- not just the beaches, playing out of a revamped Brookvale (or at least somewhere north of the bridge), with the Central Coast either having 1 or 2 home games for Manly moved there.. or having a different Sydney club relocate to Gosford while Manly stay put (Roosters? Tigers?? ).

The weakening of the code in Northern Sydney has been a product of ridding Manly Warringah of a genuine local derby rival in the North Sydney Bears. This has eliminated the popular northern Sydney derby and made the code very vulnerable when the only team has not aimed up.

 

[flippikat]

The weakening of the code in Northern Sydney has been a product of ridding Manly Warringah of a genuine local derby rival in the North Sydney Bears. This has eliminated the popular northern Sydney derby and made the code very vulnerable when the only team has not aimed up.

I don't think anyone is considering two teams "north of the bridge" within Sydney again, and those days - for better or worse - have passed. Ideally Norths would have had a guaranteed license in recognition of their move to Gosford (with one or two heritage games at North Sydney Oval), AND Manly would have a license plus upgrades to Brookvale.

IMO now the NRL & clubs have to play the best deal with the cards they have. Surely now we can say the Bears won't be back in the NRL? (If it was going to happen, it would have happened by now). Perth & Brisbane 2 appear to have leapfrogged the Central Coast in favoritism for the next 2 expansion teams too.

I have a feeling that the NRL considers NSW as a "zero sum game" where they don't want to see any more NSW clubs than there are currently.

Partially or fully relocating a Sydney club may fly, or a new Central Coast team may replace a failed Sydney club (*maybe*.. I mean, if a Sydney club collapses & they have free choice to replace them, the NRL may go with Perth or Brisbane 2 or NZ 2 instead.. if they deem it worth more).

 

[magpie_man]

Dare I say it: Any chance of a Manly-North Sydney reunification?
The Bears are reasonably cashed-up aren't they?

 

[The Great Dane]

Any talk of moving Manly out of NS at all is a bad idea, NS is an area that needs a presence in the NRL. When they are forced to move out of Brookvale move them to the SFS, that way they won't look to be abandoning NS but are being forced by the big bad government to move, and they come out of it looking peachy with an oppressed underdog story about them from a PR point of view.

The Sea Eagles should however be pressured to restructure themselves into a club for all of NS and not just the beaches, they should probably be pressured into re-branding to represent that fact as well otherwise it'll just look like lip service to the majority, but considering the current makeup of the NRL it wouldn't be sensible to remove the only presence in NS.

Leave the CC to clubs like the Easts or one of the Western Sydney clubs that are struggling.

 

[Stallion]

Wonder if the NRL can rectify a massive mistake? There should have always been two clubs with established longtime rivalry playing out of northern Sydney. A population of over 1.2 million demands it. To still go with the flawed logic of only one club from this "region" of Sydney is a major mistake. The decision made from the Superleague fiasco to go to 14 teams is proving disastrous for the code and giving other codes a leg up! The number of clubs in the NRL should have been 20 twenty years ago. The mistake has been made yet only a few on this forum can see it! ?

 

[t-ba]

The Sea Eagles should however be pressured to restructure themselves into a club for all of NS and not just the beaches, they should probably be pressured into re-branding to represent that fact as well otherwise it'll just look like lip service to the majority, but considering the current makeup of the NRL it wouldn't be sensible to remove the only presence in NS.

The Bears and the NSWRL have been obstructing this. Despite the fact its basically Asquith and Manly funding combined juniors Norths squeal like stuck pigs when Manly so much as visit a school on their side of the pit and they are indulged by the powerbrokers. Can't do much if they're not allowed to.

 

[The Great Dane]

The Bears and the NSWRL have been obstructing this. Despite the fact its basically Asquith and Manly funding combined juniors Norths squeal like stuck pigs when Manly so much as visit a school on their side of the pit and they are indulged by the powerbrokers. Can't do much if they're not allowed to.

I know but there're ways around that, namely branding, marketing and advertising.

There's no way that the Bears can stop the Eagles renting billboards, giving out signed jerseys to pubs to hang up, or whatever in rest of NS. They also can't stop them re-branding to the North Sydney Sea Eagles or from renting NS Oval (though the later might not be a good idea). The point is the Sea Eagles could and should go above the Bears heads.

Anyhow I meant that the NRL should pressure them into expanding their reach in NS, if the NRL was backing them (like they should've been for 15 years now) then the Bears could bitch and moan all they like but there wouldn't be a great deal they could do about it.

 

[MrE_Assassin]

First point, I note that in one post earlier we were talking about Manly being robbed of a genuine local derby with the demise of the Bears, but then we turn around and all say that the Roosters should move to the CC. Wouldn't that then just be history repeating itself by taking the lustre out of the Souths/Easts derby? Doesn't manly still have the F1 Derby with Newcastle anyway?Just food for thought. The only reason the Roosters have any interest in the CC is to pinch the playing talent from up there because there isn't really anyone else looking there and it supplements what they are lacking, a large juniors pool. Why do you think they affiliate with Wyong in the ISP?

Second, I agree that Manly needs to rebrand and think bigger than the shire they are in. Its worked for Easts->Sydney City->Sydney (done as a brand change to reflect an image of "Sydney's team" during the Olympics. Keeping the Sydney moniker has paid dividends for the club especially being selected as one of the 4 inaugural Women's teams ahead of Souths, Canberra and Cronulla who have an established women's comp), Balmain & Western Subs now being "Wests" incorporates a larger fan base by district association.... Manly need to do the same. Maybe a Northern Eagles 2.0. If they did that they could take up everything up to the Newcastle district, squash any chance of a Bears outfit ever coming back in the Northern Suburbs or CC, probably reclaim the CC talent pool back off the Roosters (I know I'm spearing my own club here but got to put the business hat on, can't call me bias) and still set up a North V South V East V West rivalry as well as the battle for the F1.

Thirdly, with the Wollongong based WIN buying out the Steelers part of the Dragons, could this be the start of seeing the Illawarra part of the merger becoming more prominent? I think for expansion and long-term survivability in Sydney/NSW either the Dragons or the Sharks will have to go/move. It's easier for the Dragons to go further south to the Illawarra region and base themselves out there as the South Coast Dragons, although SC Sharks certainly sounds better.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/08/20/dragons-ownership-change-a-win-win-for-illawarra-and-st-george/

Just ideas and happy to hear other people's thoughts.

 

[Stallion]

First point, I note that in one post earlier we were talking about Manly being robbed of a genuine local derby with the demise of the Bears, but then we turn around and all say that the Roosters should move to the CC. Wouldn't that then just be history repeating itself by taking the lustre out of the Souths/Easts derby? Doesn't manly still have the F1 Derby with Newcastle anyway?Just food for thought. The only reason the Roosters have any interest in the CC is to pinch the playing talent from up there because there isn't really anyone else looking there and it supplements what they are lacking, a large juniors pool. Why do you think they affiliate with Wyong in the ISP?

Second, I agree that Manly needs to rebrand and think bigger than the shire they are in. Its worked for Easts->Sydney City->Sydney (done as a brand change to reflect an image of "Sydney's team" during the Olympics. Keeping the Sydney moniker has paid dividends for the club especially being selected as one of the 4 inaugural Women's teams ahead of Souths, Canberra and Cronulla who have an established women's comp), Balmain & Western Subs now being "Wests" incorporates a larger fan base by district association.... Manly need to do the same. Maybe a Northern Eagles 2.0. If they did that they could take up everything up to the Newcastle district, squash any chance of a Bears outfit ever coming back in the Northern Suburbs or CC, probably reclaim the CC talent pool back off the Roosters (I know I'm spearing my own club here but got to put the business hat on, can't call me bias) and still set up a North V South V East V West rivalry as well as the battle for the F1.

Thirdly, with the Wollongong based WIN buying out the Steelers part of the Dragons, could this be the start of seeing the Illawarra part of the merger becoming more prominent? I think for expansion and long-term survivability in Sydney/NSW either the Dragons or the Sharks will have to go/move. It's easier for the Dragons to go further south to the Illawarra region and base themselves out there as the South Coast Dragons, although SC Sharks certainly sounds better.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/08/20/dragons-ownership-change-a-win-win-for-illawarra-and-st-george/

Just ideas and happy to hear other people's thoughts.

Manly v Newcastle, A derby?! You are kidding! No way in the world do the Novocastrians think that this is a derby and nor do the Manly fans. North Sydney v Manly Warringah is a genuine derby in a very competitive market. It's so dissapointing that this longstanding and popular derby has been lost. It can be regained if the league is smart enough. The number of NRL clubs have been too low as a result of the superleague fiasco/farce.Simple as that. The population of northern Sydney alone(over 1.2million) demands two clubs and they were treated to/enjoyed an established popular local rivalry . It should not have been lost. But can be reclaimed if the NRL administrators are smart enough.

 

[Kray-Z]

Lake Macquarie should get a team, big league area, growing population, and nice area to live in.

 

[flippikat]

I know but there're ways around that, namely branding, marketing and advertising.

There's no way that the Bears can stop the Eagles renting billboards, giving out signed jerseys to pubs to hang up, or whatever in rest of NS. They also can't stop them re-branding to the North Sydney Sea Eagles or from renting NS Oval (though the later might not be a good idea). The point is the Sea Eagles could and should go above the Bears heads.

Anyhow I meant that the NRL should pressure them into expanding their reach in NS, if the NRL was backing them (like they should've been for 15 years now) then the Bears could bitch and moan all they like but there wouldn't be a great deal they could do about it.

Yep, basically this.

That would also go a long way towards securing their future.. and I bet it would help their case in getting funding for Brookvale - or any alternative home ground on the north side of Sydney.

 

[Stallion]

Yep, basically this.

That would also go a long way towards securing their future.. and I bet it would help their case in getting funding for Brookvale - or any alternative home ground on the north side of Sydney.

The disrespect for cultural significant locality based longtime rivalries is amazing. You don't just flick a switch and expect people to readjust for ignorant strategic moves. The loss of the pre existing and well established rivalry between North Sydney and Manly Warringah has and is hurting the code of rugby league in northern Sydney. Hope you get it! It's happening. Fanciful stop gap measures are not going to cut it. History, tradition, cultural significance and longevity does. Rugby league suffers the loss and other codes are taking up the slack. That's what's happening before our very eyes. Yet these alternatives are not addressing the actual issue. It is the elimination of a much reveared and longstanding sporting and locality based rivalry. This cannot be replicated by bandage solutions or notions of creating an all encompassing club "representing " northern Sydney. The longstanding rivalry is gold and has taken generations of relevance for these areas. The Bears and the Sea Eagles need eachother and so does the sporting Public of northern Sydney. When the low times come the local derby injects life and fun for rival fans. Otherwise we are left with a vacuum and that's what is happening!

 

[Walter sobchak]

Wests Tigers to Perth = West Coast Tigers
St George Illawarra Dragons = Adelaide Dragons
Souths or bulldogs or penrith can take a couple of games to Campbeltown
Another sydney team can take a couple of games to Wollongong similar to the sydney roosters takeing games to the central coast

St George Dragons, Illawarrs Steelers, Balmain Tigers and Wests Magpies all in NSW Cup

Will never happen but I think this would be perfect, future expansion to Brisbane 2 and PNG, im personally not sold on NZ 2

Geographically speaking could Penrith and parramatta not merge to form the parramatta panthers? And cronulla and st George to form the St George Sutherland sharks? This could free up 2 places in the NRL seeing a return of the Illawarra steelers and maybe Perth?