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NRL Finals System Changed

Good decision to change finals system?


  • Total voters
    55
  • Poll closed .
Messages
15,139
Wibble, 1 v 8 and 2 v 7 are possible grand finals under the McIntyre system, as are all week 1 match ups. Back in 2008 Melbourne/Warriors was the 1 v 8 week 1 finals match, Melbourne made the grand final and Manly knocked the Warriros out in the prelim. In 2004 the Dogs/Cowboys was 2 v 7 in week 1, in the prelims the Dogs beat Penrith and the Roosters knocked out the Cowboys.

1 v 7 and 2 v 8 are impossible.
 

gUt

Coach
Messages
16,935
This assumes that the higher ranked team wins about 65% of the time.

I want to believe.

It could be analyzed from real data if anyone cared enough. I assume this is the sort of process the NRL went through to arrive at the decision to change it back to the new-old system. They wouldn't change it back just because footy commentators whine about it would they?
 

firechild

First Grade
Messages
8,067
I simply cannot agree.

Allowing an easy passage or any sort of advantage for teams 7 and 8 rewards mediocrity. It's as simple as that. For mine, if 7/8 want to make the GF, they should be doing it away from home in front of hostile crowds all the way.

IMO the NRL is finally rewarding consistency throughout the season and protecting the sanctity of the top four. The only major disadvantage of the new system IMO is the increased risk of 1v2 meeting before GF day

2 flaws with that arguement. Firstly, teams 7/8 are being rewarded with much easier games, in 7s case, they play the team ranked 1 place above them in week 1. Secondly, for almost half the teams in the comp there is no home ground advantage because all the Sydney teams are playing out of neutral venues. No doubt we'll see in the VERY near future, team 7 beat team 6 and then go on to play in week 2 at a neutral venue (with both being Sydney teams) and this whole idea of making it difficult for teams 7 and 8 will go out the window.
 

firechild

First Grade
Messages
8,067
Useless numbers

Problem is you're calculating that based on having the same probability of team 1 beating 8 (65%) as team 4 beating 5 or even 1 beating 2. Fact is that's not the case so your numbers are 100% useless. The way you've calculated it you're saying team 1 has an equal chance of making the GF if they play teams 2, 3 and 4 as opposed to teams, 8, 5 and 3. Logic would dictate that this is an absolutely rubbish assumption.If you wanted to spend the time you could weight it based on past results between teams of various rankings, you'd come up with say 17% chance of team 8 beating team 1 (based on 12 years of results and team 8 winning twice). That would give you a far more true calculation and would show that under the Macintyre system teams 1 and 2 have substantial advantages and teams 7 and 8 are pushing sh!t up hill from week 1.
 

B-Tron 3000

Juniors
Messages
1,803
This has been mentioned a few times in this thread, but it should be made clear that this would be ridiculous.

If teams 2,3 and 8 win, then the winner of the 4v5 match would have to play the minor premiers away, and the loser would get a home match against the 8th best team.

If team A beats team B, then team A should have a better fixture the next week than team B does. McIntrye doesn't enforce this, and that's the chief reason why it its good that its getting punted.

Its bad enough that in the case of an upset winning teams can be given a harder draw than the team they just beat - but to have to do it without home ground advantage would just be ludicrous.

For McIntyre to work at all, it relies on winners keeping home ground advantage.
Really good point here. So for McIntyre to stay the home ground needed to go to winners, something that many people did not like.
 

B-Tron 3000

Juniors
Messages
1,803
I have tried to read most of this thread so forgive me if I missed something similar to what I am about to say, but I think that to properly analyse this we need to take into account the nature of the regular season before we begin to look at how the finals should work.

* We know that we have a salary cap that is designed to even out the competition.

* However, we also have some games in which players are ineligible because they play Origin and a draw which does not pit every team playing against each other twice.


These things do not work together in harmony. If the business structure is such that talent is evenly distributed, then the competition draw should be constructed in a similar fair manner. Currently, it is the luck of the draw that could mean you play teams that have lost many players for Origin, or not. It is the luck of the draw that could mean you play a team that is diffiuclt to beat at home only once per year, on their home ground, while someone else will play them at home.

This is not to take into account the fatigue that hits Origins players both during and after that period, leading to some coaches resting their stars etc etc.

All these things, plus more, causes serious issues with over-rewarding the Minor Premiers, as the Minor Premiership might be awarded to a team that benefited from these inconsistencies throughout the season.

In other words, it is nearly impossible to argue that any finals system can be fairer than another, as the regular season is not fair!

Example:

If we were to say that the results up to 3 games might differ because of these inconsistencies (in the case of St George last year we could argue that the Origin period caused their slump, as much as I'd like to think it was a great Golden Point performance by Parra that sucked them of their momentum :D) we can easily see why the Minor Premiership should not be over-rewarded.

As an example, if we took 6 points off the first and second teams last year, Melbourne drop from 1st to 3rd and Manly drop from 2nd to 3rd (only for and against stopping them from being 4th).

If we look at 2010 the differences are even more pronounced. A difference of 6 points would take Saints from 1st to 4th (only for and against saving them from dropping to 6th) and Penrith would go from 2nd to 7th!


What does this mean for the construction of the finals?

Well, I think it shows that the Minor Premiers should not get too much help, at least in comparison to teams 2-3 and even 4. It also means that perhaps teams 5 and 6 and perhaps even 7 and 8 should not be as disadvantaged as we thought they were in McIntyre.

So, to me, this means that the finals system should look to uphold other virtues, the main one being that every team should know their fate before the game is played, as there is no doubt that performance (as well as the atmosphere of the fans etc) can be affected by the knowledge that the game is sudden-death.

Let's let the finals be finals and that means you need to win the big games and the big moments. Players (and fans) should know whether that last minute field goal or conversion is keeping them in the comp or not. Imagine if we knew that Anasta's field goal in 2010 was to save their season??

No-one should be sitting around waiting to find out whether they are still in the comp or not. To me, this was the single biggest problem with Mcintyre and has been resolved.
 

POPEYE

Coach
Messages
11,397
If they called the best after 26 'Premiers' and invented a new name for the winners of the cup I don't
care how the mardis gras is decided.

'Minor' is degrading and unnecessary
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,971
I actually agree that Minor Premiers is a shit name, and the prize money on offer is pitiful.

It should be of a far higher significance.
 
Messages
2,399
What I like about the McIntyre System is that it can make week one really interesting and much anticipated, inasmuch that if the team finishing 8th is on a roll, it can feel like the build up to a GF when the play the Minor Premiers on that Sunday. Now, the first week will be a bit of a damp squib, or more likely to be such.

Granted we may still get a team on a roll into 8th and play a "big" team who have been in the top 4 all season and lost a couple towards the end to fall into 5th position, but still that doesn't grab the attention like it did in '09. The Dragons v Parramatta match in week one '09 was huge. Helped because the Dragons were Minor Premiers. Manly finished 5th that year, and I think Parra would still have got to the GF in '09, I admit.

But psychologically it's gonna be more difficult for teams 7th and 8th now. You're saying that it should be. But IMO what's the point of having them in the Finals if you make it that difficult for them? Just have a top 6 then. Or top 5 as A.Johns wants.
 

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