NZ Maori 2008 World Cup

[The Observer]

This debate could go around in circles, and people will hold to their original POV.

Its clear that Aotearoa Maori won't be taking part in RLWC 2008. However, according to journo Terry Liberopoulos in the 2005 Summer Special of Rugby League Review, there may be an Emerging Nations International Cup:

An international tournament featuring countries that miss out on RLWC is still being considered by the RLIF with games to be played as a curtain-raiser.

The competition will include the likes of Greece, Malta, Cook Islands, New Caledonia, Fiji, USA, Portugal, Lebanon, New Caledonia unless they qualify for the World Cup and could also include the Australian Aboriginals and New Zealand Maoris.

The International Cup, as it wil be called, will be open to any nation that can pay their own way. The only cost incurred by the board would be small prize money for the winners and runners up.

It will be great if Aboriginal and Maori teams are allowed to participate in the International Cup. If were allowed to select the strongest team possible the best players not wanted by Aus and NZ (which hasn't rarely ever happened), they will beat the other teams comfortably and results on the pitch will make a good impression on the RL World.

 

[ozbash]

so, the maori are a nation, but not nation enough to make the w/cup propper?

i think the players should declare allegience to either maori or kiwi teams before the selection procedure otherwise it will be a case of 2nd best.

 

[Copa]

This debate could go around in circles, and people will hold to their original POV.

Its clear that Aotearoa Maori won't be taking part in RLWC 2008. However, according to journo Terry Liberopoulos in the 2005 Summer Special of Rugby League Review, there may be an Emerging Nations International Cup:



It will be great if Aboriginal and Maori teams are allowed to participate in the International Cup. If were allowed to select the strongest team possible the best players not wanted by Aus and NZ (which hasn't rarely ever happened), they will beat the other teams comfortably and results on the pitch will make a good impression on the RL World.

Which Aboriginal nation might be taking part? there are hundreds.

 

[The Observer]

Copa, it sounds like you're trolling here, and I'm not biting.

If the team follows what we've seen in past World 7s tournaments (N.A.S.C.A. Aboriginal Dream Team) and international matches (such as the A.I.R.L.A.C. Australian Aborigines' demolition of PNG Kumuls test team in two matches in 1999), the team will represent the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples of Australia - so there'll probably be players from several Aboriginal tribal groups. Big Bunny would be much more knowledgable.

 

[Copa]

Copa, it sounds like you're trolling here, and I'm not biting.

If the team follows what we've seen in past World 7s tournaments (N.A.S.C.A. Aboriginal Dream Team) and international matches (such as the A.I.R.L.A.C. Australian Aborigines' demolition of PNG Kumuls test team in two matches in 1999), the team will represent the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples of Australia - so there'll probably be players from several Aboriginal tribal groups. Big Bunny would be much more knowledgable.

I'm not trolling.

If the maori "nation" is allowed entry, then why should Australian Aboriginal nations not be allowed equal treatment?

 

[AuckMel]

Copa, it sounds like you're trolling here, and I'm not biting.

By the sounds of things, he/she doesn't want Aboriginal and Maori players competing in any form of International league.

 

[Copa]

By the sounds of things, he/she doesn't want Aboriginal and Maori players competing in any form of International league.

Nasty of you.

and quite wrong.

 

[ozbash]

your aboriginal nation idea is ok but i think the maori could do similar (if they were that way inclined)

they call themselves tribes here but i guess its just a name, they are still maori as aboriginals are still aboriginals.

same diff.

 

[AuckMel]

Nasty of you.

and quite wrong.

Well, don't be silly.

FYI, there are many different tribes of maori too, but you only need one team to represent thier "nation"

 

[AuckMel]

your aboriginal nation idea is ok but i think the maori could do similar (if they were that way inclined)

they call themselves tribes here but i guess its just a name, they are still maori as aboriginals are still aboriginals.

same diff.

Snap.

 

[The Observer]

I'm not trolling.

If the maori "nation" is allowed entry, then why should Australian Aboriginal nations not be allowed equal treatment?

One thing is that AFAIK, none have asked. AFAICT, in big tournaments like the Redfern Aboriginal Knockout, the teams don't represent tribes.

AFAIK The main proposal for an Aboriginal presence in RLWC was made by former Kangaroos captain, coach and current selector Arthur Beetson. It was for a combined team, and its been combined Aboriginal teams that have played in major tournaments like the Pacific Cup, the World Sevens, tours of Great Britain and the series against PNG.

If an individual tribal team wanted to play, you'd have to seriously consider the proposal. IIRC Big Bunny's made a thoughtful, valid argument about individual tribal teams playing in international tournaments, e.g. RLWC or a First Nations Cup. His argument against a combined Aboriginal team is the valid and reasonable.

Personally, IMHO, I think an ATSI team would be a good start towards getting recognition for indigenous RL, particularly since the general public gets very little education about indigenous history and culture. If the ATSI team plays more, that could pave the way for individual tribal teams in the future if that was desired.

Howeerv the combined ATSI would easily be the strongest. Even without their reps in the Kangaroo team, they could still beat any other international team including the Kangaroos, Kiwis and the Lions.

Simiarly, the Aotearoa Maori team is the best chance, in the present time, to get recognition for Maori RL and to perform strongly in international competition.

Nasty of you. and quite wrong.

Unfortunately, its not unreasonable to suggest that some posters would rather that Aboriginal and Maori teams never get to play in any RL competitions ever.

 

[Copa]

Aboriginal nations in Ozoften have different languages, cultures, legal systems, histories and religious systems to each other. A friend of mine even helps guard his country's waters from people who come from other countries (ie other places within Oz) to steal dugong.

Different nations are widely recognised in Oz amongst aboriginal people.

To put it in very, very, very simple terms it is like putting a big border around europe and telling europeans they can represent a "european nation" when in fact europe is made up of many different cultures and groups.

Your response was very, very simplistic, exemplified by your continued use of the word 'nation'. The thread has gone on so long because people keep talking about national teams, nations, countries, states, but nobody has made a clear, consistent, systematic differentiation between the terms.

Noone has clearly, consistently, systematically set criteria for how a team should be eligible for RLWC. Most posters, for example screeny and griff, are willing to embrace double standards for excluding the Maorifor a variety of reasons that are convenient for them.

BTW as an aside, a team representing competes in international golf and snooker - golf is a massive international sport compared to RL.

 

[Copa]

One thing is that AFAIK, none have asked. AFAICT, in big tournaments like the Redfern Aboriginal Knockout, the teams don't represent tribes.

AFAIK The main proposal for an Aboriginal presence in RLWC was made by former Kangaroos captain, coach and current selector Arthur Beetson. It was for a combined team, and its been combined Aboriginal teams that have played in major tournaments like the Pacific Cup, the World Sevens, tours of Great Britain and the series against PNG.

If an individual tribal team wanted to play, you'd have to seriously consider the proposal. IIRC Big Bunny's made a thoughtful, valid argument about individual tribal teams playing in international tournaments, e.g. RLWC or a First Nations Cup. His argument against a combined Aboriginal team is the valid and reasonable.

Personally, IMHO, I think an ATSI team would be a good start towards getting recognition for indigenous RL, particularly since the general public gets very little education about indigenous history and culture. If the ATSI team plays more, that could pave the way for individual tribal teams in the future if that was desired.

Howeerv the combined ATSI would easily be the strongest. Even without their reps in the Kangaroo team, they could still beat any other international team including the Kangaroos, Kiwis and the Lions.

Simiarly, the Aotearoa Maori team is the best chance, in the present time, to get recognition for Maori RL and to perform strongly in international competition.



Unfortunately, its not unreasonable to suggest that some posters would rather that Aboriginal and Maori teams never get to play in any RL competitions ever.

he didn't suggest i was merely anti-maori team, he suggested I didn't want aboriginal or maori players to play RL at international level.....

I just putting forward a case that if we are gonna have other teams in should there perhaps be consistency with rules... maori nations and aboriginal nations etc etc.

Consistency is something the RLIF seems to be heading towards in the proposed 2008 WC. and this is a good thing.

We don't need vague and loose rules that differ for each situation.

 

[The Observer]

Your response was very, very simplistic, exemplified by your continued use of the word 'nation'. The thread has gone on so long because people keep talking about national teams, nations, countries, states, but nobody has made a clear, consistent, systematic differentiation between the terms.

Noone has clearly, consistently, systematically set criteria for how a team should be eligible for RLWC. Most posters, for example screeny and griff, are willing to embrace double standards for excluding the Maorifor a variety of reasons that are convenient for them.

BTW as an aside, a team representing competes in international golf and snooker - golf is a massive international sport compared to RL.

Sorry, I've accidentally replaced your post with mine.

I just putting forward a case that if we are gonna have other teams in should there perhaps be consistency with rules... maori nations and aboriginal nations etc etc.

Consistency is something the RLIF seems to be heading towards in the proposed 2008 WC. and this is a good thing.

We don't need vague and loose rules that differ for each situation.

For this whole thread, I've been arguing that we need consistency in principles that underpin the rules for qualifying.

 

[screeny]

Your response was very, very simplistic, exemplified by your continued use of the word 'nation'. The thread has gone on so long because people keep talking about national teams, nations, countries, states, but nobody has made a clear, consistent, systematic differentiation between the terms.

Noone has clearly, consistently, systematically set criteria for how a team should be eligible for RLWC. Most posters, for example screeny and griff, are willing to embrace double standards for excluding the Maorifor a variety of reasons that are convenient for them.

BTW as an aside, a team representing competes in international golf and snooker - golf is a massive international sport compared to RL.

Eh? Come again.....

Do you mean that griff and I have both stated we'd be behind the Maori in the WC if it was of undoubted benefit to RL as a whole?.......

........Or do you mean that we are endorsing 'double standards' by backing the inclusion of the HNs but not the Maori?

I agree with the former, but would disagree with the latter. You can't compare the Maori with the HNs (well you can, but you'd be barking up the ethnicity tree again, and as Observer said, we'd go round in circles).

 

[AuckMel]

Do you mean that griff and I have both stated we'd be behind the Maori in the WC if it was of undoubted benefit to RL as a whole?.......

Maori involvement in Rugby league does benefit the code as a whole.

Count how many of them play the game and then tell me I'm wrong.

 

[screeny]

Maori involvement in Rugby league does benefit the code as a whole.

Count how many of them play the game and then tell me I'm wrong.

You miss my point....or I should rephrase. I've already stated, on this very thread, that the more people, Maoris or otherwise, playing RL is obviously a good thing.

But my point is that the NZ Maori in a WC finals is not as beneficial to the sport as a whole as another nation taking that berth.

However, both griff and I stated that if RL, as a whole, would benefit more by the Maori being included then we'd be behind it.

Basically, the imperative is: what's best for the sport as a whole? Maori in WC or out of WC? I vote out.

Of course I'm not suggesting the Maori players don't contribute anything to the sport! That would be ludicrous of me.

 

[roopy]

I think a Maori side would benefit the game as a whole more than many countries.

NZ is one place where we can grow the game significantly in coming years - while it will be a very hard slog to get much worthwhile growth in the Pacific Islands (countries too small and too poor) or europe (too much competition).

A successful Maori side could bring 10's of thousands of fans to the game - who would end up being fans for the Warriors or a new NZ franchise. That is real growth and real potential for the game to make dollars in the future. The Cook Islands or Scotland have far less potential to grow the game.

 

[ozbash]

A successful Maori side could bring 10's of thousands of fans to the game

the maori tv channel are promoting maori league in such a way that it shames the hype and bullsh*t shown on the " mainstream" tv channels- sky and tvnz.

if they (mtv) keep it up, who knows how many they will bring to the game.
its actually very refreshing to see (and mostly in english)

 

[Ari Gold]

Maori involvement in Rugby league does benefit the code as a whole.

Count how many of them play the game and then tell me I'm wrong.

yeah but those Maori's can represent NZ, Samoa, Tonga etc.... like Nikau and many others do/did. I don't see the problem.