OKI Jubilee Tops `Gong On Crowd Average

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

Well... you really can't expect the aggregate to be bigger can you? You surely would not expect St. George Illawarra to be pulling in every St. George fan and every Illawarra fan ever.

But it isn't that bad.

LOL and you cant really expect the average to be smaller can you?

I agree with D.O.

Let's compare 1992 crowds with this season. In 92 both St.George and Illawarra finished in the top 5. This season the JV has finished in the top 5 for the first time. Here are the home ground averages:

St.George = 10,860

Illawarra = 13,750

Combined = 24,610

Compare that with the JV's average of 15,000. Not to mention that WIN's average this year is almost identical to the 92 figure and consider that it is now a much bigger ground and a considerable number of people travel down from Sydney to JV games. All up, that's a pretty big number of people to lose each fortnight. I remember Roy Masters pointing to this a few years ago.

Clearly, the JV has caused alot of people to not attend games as much as they used to. How has this helped Rugby League? If we had a rationalised comp down to 2 teams the NRL would probably beam at crowd averages of 16,000, not realising (or refusing to acknowledge) that there are less people interested in the game. They are missing the big picture.

 

[Drew-Sta]

Well... you really can't expect the aggregate to be bigger can you? You surely would not expect St. George Illawarra to be pulling in every St. George fan and every Illawarra fan ever.

But it isn't that bad.

LOL and you cant really expect the average to be smaller can you?

I agree with D.O.

Let's compare 1992 crowds with this season. In 92 both St.George and Illawarra finished in the top 5. This season the JV has finished in the top 5 for the first time. Here are the home ground averages:

St.George = 10,860

Illawarra = 13,750

Combined = 24,610

Compare that with the JV's average of 15,000. Not to mention that WIN's average this year is almost identical to the 92 figure and consider that it is now a much bigger ground and a considerable number of people travel down from Sydney to JV games. All up, that's a pretty big number of people to lose each fortnight. I remember Roy Masters pointing to this a few years ago.

Clearly, the JV has caused alot of people to not attend games as much as they used to. How has this helped Rugby League? If we had a rationalised comp down to 2 teams the NRL would probably beam at crowd averages of 16,000, not realising (or refusing to acknowledge) that there are less people interested in the game. They are missing the big picture.

Possibly one of the bests posts I've read. The NRL are missing the big picture! More and more supporters are turning their backs on League, frustrated with the repeated changes and... well, the crap that goes on.

Rugby League is in serious trouble, because it ISN'T expanding, nor is there enough money in the game; junior base is diminishing, clubs are not performing, the competition is run more like a local competition than the proclaimed 'business' it tries to be and there is general discontent amongst too many supporters.

I don't know if I have said this before, but more competitions need to be created and then funded, in the Central Coast area's, Country area's need to be built upon, the South Coast needs to helped, out west in the Campbelltown area. work needs to be done to stop juniors turning from League to AFL and soccer. I believe for the next 10 to 20 years, less focus needs to be put on the NRL, and more focus on building the game up from the grass roots is needed for the League to survive. Until Rugby League is a National competition, like the NFL, I will worry that it's future is in jeapody.

 

[Anonymous]

The 1992 combined figure of 24,610 is not an average.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

The 1992 combined figure of 24,610 is not an average.

Yeah, you're right it's not an average it's two averages combined... but the point is more people were going to watch St.George and Illawarra as stand alone clubs than watch the JV today.

 

[Anonymous]

And in 1992, we had 16 teams... only one more than now.

Sorry, I only skimmed over the meaning of your post.

1992:
St.George = 10,860
Illawarra = 13,750
Combined = 24,610
divided by two = 12,305
This being the hypothetical average should the JV had existed in 1992.

The 2004 "average" is higher:
Kogarah: 14,975
WIN: 13,988
Total: 28,963
divided by two = 14,482

Buuuut in 1992, Kogarah and WIN were seeing more games each, would you say about 10 or 11 per year? I think Saints played a home game in Adelaide that year.

That is, approximately 20 crowds as opposed to the current 12, substantially reducing the overall crowd potential. This equates to less bums on seats overall in the St George and Illawarra districts.

A simple assessment but both districts appear to be missing out.

 

[Nugby]

I was suprised the difference wasn't more, not to say that WIN sucks or anything, just all the Kogarah games have been hyped up so much and you pretty much expect sellouts when you play what are realistically local derbies compared to any game at WIN. The Dragons board designs OKI's home game's to be sellouts. I would have ignored it entirely except for the argument it brought up.

 

[Cheesie-the-Pirate]

Wow... this forum has a capacity to put a negative spin on anything. Especially if the JV is concerned.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, we need more angry exclaimation marks. :lol:
With respect, talking about it is the point of discussion forums.

 

[Cheesie-the-Pirate]

Yeah, yeah, I know.

I guess I'm just (WARNING: Cliche coming) a glass half full kind of person.

But then again as a St. George fan living on the South Coast, I represent the big winners of the merger; getting to see the mighty red V closer to home!

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

And in 1992, we had 16 teams... only one more than now.

Sorry, I only skimmed over the meaning of your post.

1992:
St.George = 10,860
Illawarra = 13,750
Combined = 24,610
divided by two = 12,305
This being the hypothetical average should the JV had existed in 1992.

The 2004 "average" is higher:
Kogarah: 14,975
WIN: 13,988
Total: 28,963
divided by two = 14,482

Buuuut in 1992, Kogarah and WIN were seeing more games each, would you say about 10 or 11 per year? I think Saints played a home game in Adelaide that year.

That is, approximately 20 crowds as opposed to the current 12, substantially reducing the overall crowd potential. This equates to less bums on seats overall in the St George and Illawarra districts.

A simple assessment but both districts appear to be missing out.

The last bit is right. There were more people going to games and watching either St.George or Illawarra than people who now go and watch the JV.

Dividing by two is not right. The combined figure is simply to demonstrate that on an average week when both teams played at home there would be 24,000 bums on seats. Compared with today's average week at home (with the two tribes rolled into one) only 14,000 watch the JV.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah I follow what you mean. The bottom line is that there are less bums on seats in StGeorge and Illawarra.
I was just referring to the hypothetical average per game regardless of the venue.

It's academic anyway.

If we are to take Millward in his word that the Steelers were not going to survive past 1999, then even without the JV, there would be less games in Wollongong.

If Millward was wrong in his assessment, well that's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

Yeah, actually Millward said the Steelers could go on until the end of 2000 or something until the Optus money ran out (or something like that???) but the future looked uncertain and that it would be a struggle to find backers and survive.

Fair enough, but this is the reason why I don't understand the sudden rush to merge when there was still another season left before the 'culling' began. That plus not even discussing the issue with club members and supporters (the same happened to you guys, right?).

Perhaps the worst thing of all is that the JV board is simply the two club boards together (or at least half from each), the top brass from both didn't really sacrifice any of their roles. E.g, many people may of been comfortable if Bobby led us to the JV then simply stayed on the Steelers board instead of getting his bib on the JV board (in addition to the NSWRL and ARL) it would of illustrated that he wasn't doing anything for his benefit but for the good of the club. All he's ever said is "we would of been $2mil short of the criteria for the new league" and I'd like to find out exactly what that means... is it that dreaded criteria that saw souths go or something else?

It would be interesting to investigate the goings on at both clubs (as well as the NRL) from mid 98, and try to piece together exactly what happened... I'll might put on a journo's cap... Michael Moore look out :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

LOL... well we don't know it all but we can speculate that the various NRL carrots would have played a part and the Steelers were told that there would be nothing on the table if they didn't agree to the JV.

From St George's point of view, the money shouldn't have been an issue and I would think they had a choice... so it comes back to the carrot "theory".

You're right, there was very little consultation. Perhaps a lesson learned from the earlier attempt to merge with Easts and the successsful intervention from S.O.S.

 

[Man_of_Steel_1982]

Yeah you're right, the success of S.O.S in 95(?) probably made them a little wiser the second time around. Infact, the Wests Tigers JV was the only one that was made with the support of both clubs' members (The 'Beagles' were a disaster)... and probably on the basis of what had been demonstrated by our JV in it's first season.

Oh well... i guess all this is a little off topic for this thread! :lol: ;-)

 

[Silver_Haired_Devil]

Too many old fellas on here :lol:
I'm a St.George Illawarra supporter, and i think the joint venture is fantastic, i love having two home grounds to travel too, especially one's so different to each other. I love having access to a juniors base that strengthens our club and strengthens the game, and i love supporting the club without having to stress about infighting.

Oh, i love Santa

 

[Anonymous]

Too many old fellas on here :lol:

lol... loosely translates to, "this is all too complicated." :lol:

Oh, i love Santa

The sums it up pretty well. :lol:

 

[Silver_Haired_Devil]

Lighten up!
I've been a dragon since 1920, and luckily began following league closely in 1999.
It's not too complicated, i just really don't put much stock in all this St. George Vs illawarra bickering, it's funny.
But i see where you're all coming from, if my team merged with a dying club it would be a huge culture shock and i would oppose it as well, and continue to not be pleased.

 

[Anonymous]

Lighten up!

Light as a feather mate. I think you're getting me mixed up with someone who takes you seriously.

I've been a dragon since 1920

...and you hold your age very well.

and luckily began following league closely in 1999.

Was that before or after you gave the Sharks away. :lol:

It's not too complicated, i just really don't put much stock in all this St. George Vs illawarra bickering, it's funny.

If you bothered to read the posts, you'd see that Man of Steel and I are having a rational discussion. There's no shit fight (apart from the one you seemed determined to start) and there is an element of interest on the subject from at least two contributors.
No biggie, and we're were probably done anyway. But no one is forcing you to read it.

But i see where you're all coming from, if my team merged with a dying club it would be a huge culture shock and i would oppose it as well, and continue to not be pleased.

No, you don't see we're I'm coming from at all.
I tell you what, there's a probably a shopping mall somewhere in Sutherland which is still open... that'll give you something to do.
Cheers.

 

[Silver_Haired_Devil]

Cranky eh.
1920 was the year my great grandfather started following the dragons, and i since then i was never going to follow any other side.
"All this bickering" wasn't in reference to your discussion, just general things i hear when an former St. George supporter and a Former Illawarra supporter disagree. Nor am i complaining about it being here or saying i'm forced to read it. I enjoyed reading it, it gave me an insight into the history of my club.
Oh, with an avatar and signature like i've chosen, i'm not expecting to be taken seriously. Sheesh. I was simply trying to give another perspective on things in a topic that began arguing the merits of the two stadiums. k?

 

[Anonymous]

Unsettled eh? :lol:

And to think I had all day to forget about this and did so in the first 5 minutes.

I think you mean 1921 and back then it was the Dragon Slayers.
Before 1921 there was third grade team called Wests III but they were mostly known as St George.

If you have some insight into this, please contact (seriously) as anyone who has family discussions to the past is golden for old fellas like me for enjoy writing about this stuff.

I personally used to pick my old granduncle's brains when it came to stories about football in the the 1930s. Apparently there used to be a few punch ups between opposing supporters on the trams. Blood on the floor he said.

I can but imagine what he'd think of this new fangle internet thang.