Onions evolution, soon it will be League

[Cronulla_Mania]

LOL LOL LOL, we have a new candidate for most ridiculous comment of the year people! Wait, let me compose myself.....Ok, here we go....
"Roopy, I think you'll find union players are better tacklers than league. In union more one on one tackling occurs in league its more of a gang tackle that we see."
Marcus champ, its good to support your code, but take the blinkers off. More one on one tackling in union?? OK then, well why do union teams employ LEAGUE players as defensive coaches??
You have to be joking! LOL
MFC

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

Union players are, more often than not, required to tackle one on one, but they do many less tackles per game than League players and the consequences of missing a tackle are not nearly as dire. Because of that, League players have to develop tackling skills to a higher degree. A weak defender will very quickly be found out and targetted in League.
League coaches are passing on the skills of forming defensive lines and organisation to Union, which should eventually mean less one on one tackling.

How will league players make union change? I think Jason Robinson, Harris and Paul have very quickly shown that one out defence will not contain them. They are used to finding their way through well drilled defensive lines and disorganised rabble won't ever contain them. Union will have to get their defensive patterns as drilled as those in League - everyone coming forward and moving back in a line - none of this marking your opposite number business - that went out with the dark ages.

If Matty Rogers stays fit he will cut many of the super twelve teams to bits. Give him half a gap in the defensive line and he is through it in the blink of an eye.

 

[G@v]

Marcus, you are just trying to be prevocative, either that, or you really are mad.

If onion players were better drilled in the art of tackling why did several national sides feel the need to recruit second rate League coaches to improve that department?

I take little notice of onion fans like yourself have to say on the relevent merits of either code, prefering the views of onion players who have played League, and who have stated how tough the transition was, how superior League players are when it comes to the all round basics that should be part of any decent rugby players repertoire. What is described as a well rounded player.

Maybe you don't want the games to merge, but if the inferior game continues to pinch RL idea's, 10 or 15 years down the line the two will look so alike the only sane option would be to merge.

 

[Marcus]

I think you will find that union's defensive patterns have increased and it has been due to league no doubt. You just have to look at this years Tri-nations to see my point. The defence was so good that this year posted the lowest number of tries in the comp. With that been said, the only thing that will change in union will just be the defensive patterns nothing else. So as you can see thats not a major change to the game of rugby - and therefore not similar to league.

 

[G@v]

Marcus, do you think that line-outs will be around in 2011, will the scrum stay the same? Don't you think that even more League idea's will be taken on board?

Impermanence is a fact of life, although RU over the years gave the illusion that this might not be the case.

 

[Marcus]

GavBT, both the lineouts and scrums will stay the same - they have been since the game began.

Leagues tactics maybe adopted but not the rules.

 

[Marcus]

Let me ask you guys... Why does league still have a scrum?

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Marcus - You attribute the low number of points scored to good defense. Maybe its due to the fact that there is a lack of creativity in the game, to much of a reliance on kicking @ goal to win matches or even the simple fact that there are to many players on the field!
Look at the changes that have already occured in the code. Even onionites themselves have admitted that the southern hemisphere teams have adopted a 'league style' approach to the game. Its already happened buddy, compare a union game 10 yrs ago to one today. A whole different kettle of fish.....
And better tacklers, as Gav said, i hope you were just stirring the pot!
MFC.

 

[imported_kier]

Just a quick point on the history of scrummaging - the fixed loosehead was a RL invention (along with a set number of front row players)......ans was in place long before the RU rule change in the 1960s that odopted the set patterns that you see today.

Do not get precious about things that have been around "since the game began" - as there are one or two surprises in the development of the RU code!

 

[Marcus]

MFC, saying that unions good defence is attributed to bad creativity in attack is as easy as saying (if you look at this years NRL comp) league's attacking creativity is attributed to bad defence.

 

[imported_kier]

Also - there may possibly be a higher proportion of 1-on-1 tackles in RU (I'm not convinced myself) but the actual numbers make a mockery of this statistic.

In the recent England internationl the English team perform 70 tackles! (The Times newpaper on the monday after the fixture).

The record for the number of individual tackles in a game of RL stands at 66! (set by the London favourite Steele Retchless) and teh average in an ESL game stands at well over 10 per player.

I do not accept your assertion. Speaking as someone with over 10 years playing experience in BOTH codes - it's absolute rubbish.

 

[G@v]

As late as 1930, the All Blacks used a 2-3-2 scrum formation.

 

[imported_kier]

True Gav - but right into the 1960s there was nothing to stop players (from the pack or backs) joining the front row in an attempt to gain the loosehead position on the put in.

Initially the RU authorities "suggested" the use of 3 man set front rows - but didn't give the refs the power to penalise players that went against it. (work that one out?)

Scrums remained a mess for a while until the 3 man fron row rules (as they had been in RL for decades) were adopted wholesale.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Let's assume the league opinion that league produces better runners, because of the nature of the game, is true. So players like Harris, Paul, Sailor, Rogers, fresh off a competitive league season, should come out with spectacular results, as Harris and Paul have already done. My question is, after a few years of playing union, will these guys come back to the pack so to speak, or will they still be dominant players?
I liken it to European hockey players who came to the NHL in the early 90's with more speed, flair, and creativity than the Canadian players (Gretzky and Lemieux excepted). But after a few seasons the Europeans become ground down by the more physical NHL style of play, and seem to lose some of their offensive flair.
Will league players raise the level of union play, or will playing union take away some of these guys' skill and creativity? (I know this question is loaded in favour of the league viewpoint, and some like Marcus will not agree with the assumptions I made.

 

[imported_Mystery Man]

While I can't say, for sure,that a league-convert's running ability will go backwards, I will say, with a high degree of certainty, that it will not improve. This is especially true for a guy like Wendell Sailor. First of all, union wingers/players don't get anywhere near as involved as their league counterparts. The reasons for this are -

a) In union, the ball is in play for less than half the time that it is in league, so this reduces the amount of opportunities to be involved.
b) It is very common for a league winger to leave his flank and become involved by running the ball. Many league wingers have an extremely high involvement rate due to this. In union, it is much more important for a winger to stay on his wing, as if there is a turnover in possession, an overlap can very easily open up, due to the fewer amount of players in a union defensive line.
c) Whenever a league back gets the ball in his own in-goal area, or in his own quarter, he will always run it back - it is one of the things that a league fullback or winger prides himself on. In union, the ball is almost never run out of the in-goal area - it is usually forced for a 22-metre drop-kick. Also, in union, when the ball is retrieved inside the 22-metre area, most of the time it is kicked out.


The second reason why a league player would not improve his running abilities inunion is because the quality of the runs are not as good. This is because -

a) When a player sees a gap in league, he goes for it - no matter what. In union, players have to be sure that they are not running away from their support players, and therefore this restricts what a player can do. This is especially true on the rare occasions that aplayer runs the ball out of his own 22-meter area.The player must always be cautious to stay with supports, or not turn the ball over - once again, this greatly restricts the running options that a player has. Compare this to league, where the kick-return is often the greatest opportunity that a player has to stride out, and run at a staggered defensive line - this, in complete contrast to union, gives a player the chance to use their great evasive skills, and individuality, to maximum effect.
b) When a league player hits the line, he can try and go straight through, or can struggle and try and break the tackle. This is a much riskier proposition in union, as it is very easy to lose the ball. As a result, when a union player hits the line, they must do so with a safety first approach. They must ensure that they are able to fall correctly, when tackled, to ensure that they maintain possession - this restricts the creativity of players. And, rather than struggling through when they feel that there is a chance to break a tackle, they are, more than likely, inclined to turn and look for support, or, perhaps, start a maul.

Based on these reasons, I have no doubt at all that league players would not improve their running in union. In addition to this, the reduced amount of tackling would, no doubt, do little to improve their defensive games.

 

[G@v]

MM, thanks for that explanation.

Another reason why Harris and co would struggle if they returned to League would be down to fitness levels. Union might be improving, but the demand's on a RU player are still significantly less than those of a League pro. However, I can see a time when this gap will lessen with more changes to the other game. I know this view might not be too popular amongst the diehards of both codes.

 

[imported_Hazy]

MM - i disagree with your points..

a) When a player sees a gap in league, he goes for it - no matter what. In union, players have to be sure that they are not running away from their support players.....

Id say (and coach) that it is the supporting players role to get to the runner - not his to worry about people behind him.

this, in complete contrast to union, gives a player the chance to use their great evasive skills, and individuality, to maximum effect.

of course the chip and chase is never seen by a union player returning a kick....

b) When a league player hits the line, he can try and go straight through, or can struggle and try and break the tackle. This is a much riskier proposition in union, as it is very easy to lose the ball. As a result, when a union player hits the line, they must do so with a safety first approach. They must ensure that they are able to fall correctly, when tackled, to ensure that they maintain possession - this restricts the creativity of players.

a league player must ensure that they fall correctly, when tackled, to ensure they are in position for a quick play the ball. The 'pop' pass from a tackled player happens more often in union than in league - and I feel that restricts creativity.


And, rather than struggling through when they feel that there is a chance to break a tackle, they are, more than likely, inclined to turn and look for support, or, perhaps, start a maul.

I feel that is creative and more attractive to watch than 'submitting' to produce a quick PTB

 

[imported_Mystery Man]

Id say (and coach) that it is the supporting players role to get to the runner - not his to worry about people behind him.

Yes, but there are always going to be situations where it is going to be hard for the supports to get there. The options are cut down in union. In league, you know that you're going to maintian possession, so you don't have to worry as much about supports, and, therefore, can "go for it" more often - especially individually.

of course the chip and chase is never seen by a union player returning a kick....

You still don't see anywhere near as many kick returns in union, particularly from the back quarter. Also, the chip and chase isn't running in its true sense.

a league player must ensure that they fall correctly, when tackled, to ensure they are in position for a quick play the ball.

Falling correctly is far more important in union than in league. A player is more likely to take a chance in league, as they are assured of maintaining possession.

The 'pop' pass from a tackled player happens more often in union than in league - and I feel that restricts creativity.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. Whatever the case, I feel like there are a lot more offloads in league than in union.

I feel that is creative and more attractive to watch than 'submitting' to produce a quick PTB

That doesn't make sense. I said that a player from league is more likely to try and break the tackle rather than wait for the support.I never said anything aboutsubmitting for a quick the play the ball. A union player is far more likely to submit than a league player. It is one thing that I find very frustrating in union. I'm not denying that it happens in league, but not to the extent that it does in union, and, usually, it is proceeded by a strong run.

 

[imported_Hazy]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on most of the points MM, but I'll try to clear up my last point.

I dont see a union player as 'submitting', he might have a strong rucking team (or a rucking team-mate is closest), therefore it is his decision to get to the ground and place the ball, if he has a strong mauling team (or mauling team-mate) he would want to retain his feet to start the maul. The opposition would naturally play to their defending strengths as well.

and a union player has the option to break the line as much as a league player.

 

[imported_Hazy]

just thought of a better way to put it,

a submitting union player isnt giving his team-mates time to position themselves to help him(or her- damn PCness!!!)