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OT: Current Affairs and Politics

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
17,415
Do you believe in climate change and the urgent need to arrest global emissions ? If so, then it needs to be a collective push by those who can and influence and assist those third world and emerging economies into the same direction.

Seriously the only reason why merkins have not embraced this and instead take "let's do nothing or delay for as long as we can" side is because of the notion that large government projects like reinventing the energy mix are perceived to be hugely expensive and will interfere with individuals’ livelihoods.

I'm happy to accept the majority view of the scientific community on climate change/global emissions, etc.

I'm also of the view that it has to be one-in-all-in to reduce global emission or there is little point, which is similar to your lines of collective push. I'm also of the view that Australia's overall influence on the matter is GROSSLY overstated.

But, just on the topic of coal alone related to the climate change/global warming debate, whilst there are plans to build 1600 coal fired power stations around the World, one of the so-called legends of global emissions reductions in Canada actually increases there exports of coal by 50% in the last five years, Russia, Indonesia and the USA have plenty of coal to sell with no plans not to and China, Japan and India having no plans to stop using and buying, is there really a global plan/push from "those than can" to cut emissions?

So some questions for you:
1. If Australia goes it alone and went to 100% renewable energy and stopped the mining and export of coal, do you believe that this action alone will reduce global emissions in any way?

2. What are the actual actions that you want Australia to take on climate change?
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,951
whilst there are plans to build 1600 coal fired power stations around the World,

The world is going slow on coal, but misinformation is distorting the facts

A recent story on 621 plants being built globally was played up in various media – but the figure is way off the mark.

Adam Morton

@adamlmorton
Mon 16 Oct 2017 10.38 AEDTLast modified on Wed 14 Mar 2018 03.00 AEDT


China still uses a stack of coal but data shows it has stopped construction at 33 sites in the past three months. Photograph: Kevin Frayer/Getty Images
This is a story about how misinformation can take hold. It’s not always down to dishonesty. Sometimes it’s just a lack of time, a headline and the multiplying power of ideological certainty.

Last week, China announced it was stopping or postponing work on 151 coal plants that were either under, or earmarked for, construction.

Last month, India reported its national coal fleet on average ran at little more than 60% of its capacity – among other things, well below what is generally considered necessary for an individual generator to be financially viable.

Neither of these stories gained much of a foothold in the Australia media. But one story on global coal did: that 621 plants were being built across the planet.

The line was run in print, repeated on national radio and rippled out on social media among likeminded audiences. Some politicians and commentators claimed it showed it was strange, maybe even ridiculous, that MPs, financiers and energy companies said new coal power stations had no role to play in Australia.

But the figure is wrong. Way off, in fact. According to the most recent data, there are 267 coal stations under construction. More than 40% of those are not actually new ones, but expansions of existing generators.

A bit of background: the figure dates back to 19 June, when Nationals senator John “Wacka” Williams asked the parliamentary library to answer a few reasonable questions. How many coal plants are there in other countries? How many have been built recently or are being built? How many have closed? According to the parliamentary library analysis, he wanted the answers by 4pm the same day.

Fast forward to September, and the Australian ran a page one story quoting the analysis under the headline “World building new coal plants faster than it shuts them”. The Oz (correctly) reported that the library found 621 coal-fired power units were being built. This was mis-repeated by several people who don’t accept that climate change is a present threat – including blogger and broadcaster Andrew Bolt and government backbench energy and environment committee chair Craig Kelly – as 621 plants being built.

In reality, coal power stations are usually made up of several units. Victoria’s Hazelwood, which shut in March, had eight. But the distinction mattered little once Bolt had provided the shareable online headline: “New coal-fired power stations: World 621, Australia zero. Now understand?”


While the stations/units confusion is relevant, it is not the main issue. The 621 is incorrect, however you cut it.

By the time it appeared in the media, it was more than a year out of date. How do we know? The guy behind the data that was the initial source for the library analysis says so.

The parliamentary library used as its source the Comstat Data Portal, a trade-focused African website not known for its energy expertise. As the library noted, the African portal copied its data from the Global Coal Plant Tracker, the widely respected database run by US-based anti-coal organisation CoalSwarm and used by the OECD, International Energy Agency and Bloomberg publications. But none of the players involved in spreading this story in Australia contacted CoalSwarm directly to check if the African database was accurate.

It’s not. Ted Nace, the director of CoalSwarm, says there appeared to be numerous transcription errors. More significantly, the data on Comstat is out of date – from August last year. It did not reflect that new construction of coal plants plummeted in 2016 and 2017 following declines in construction in China and India.

More coal-fired capacity is still being built than closed each year, though the gap has narrowed significantly.

But, crucially, coal stations are not being used as much. The amount of electricity produced across the planet by burning coal has fallen each year since 2013.

“A distinction needs to be kept in mind between capacity and electrical output,” Nace says. “Even though there are more power plants, the actual production of electricity from those plants – and likewise the amount of coal used worldwide – has fallen every year since 2013, with a small drop in 2014 and larger drops in 2015 and 2016.”

The parliamentary assessment, and subsequent reporting, would have benefited from a closer glance at a report released in March by CoalSwarm, Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. Titled Boom and Bust 2017, it found an extraordinary 62% drop in new coal plant construction across the globe last year, and an 85% fall in new coal plant permits in China.

Analysis of CoalSwarm’s database shows that in July, construction was taking place at 300 plants globally. Of those, 183 were new power stations and 117 extensions of existing plants. But that number is changing rapidly.

As in so many things, the extraordinary story in coal comes from China. It still uses a stack of it, and is still building plenty of power stations. But according to a breakdown of the latest cancellation data announced last week by Simon Holmes à Court, senior adviser at the University of Melbourne’s energy transition hub, it stopped construction at 33 sites in the past three months alone.

It means that since July, the number of new coal stations being built in China has fallen from 103 to just 74. There has also been a slight decrease in the number being expanded, down to 46. The reason? A glut in the Chinese electricity market. The Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis found its coal fleet ran at only 47.5% capacity last year.

India is the other big player, with 45 power stations under construction – 19 new plants and 26 being expanded. While debate continues to rage over whether the Australian government should subsidise Adani’s planned giant export coal mine in outback Queensland, existing Indian coal plants – including those owned by Adani – are struggling.

...2
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,951
Among countries comparable to Australia in terms of development, Japan – which signalled it would make a significant investment in coal after shutting down its nuclear fleet following the f**kushima disaster six years ago – has 14 construction projects, many of them small by Australian standards.

Germany has been held up by lobby group the Minerals Council of Australia as an industrialised country investing in “high efficiency, low emissions”, or HELE, coal technology. It has one station under construction. Building work at what is known as Datteln 4 started a decade ago next month. After several delays, it is due to be commissioned next year.

It is the only coal station being built in western Europe. Britain’s Conservative party has promised to phase out coal by 2025, and Justin Trudeau’s Canadian government by 2030. The two countries last week said they would work together to push other countries to join them. Despite Donald Trump’s grand promises about reviving the coal industry, there are no new stations under construction in the US.

What does all this mean for Australia? In terms of the political debate, probably very little. Given the modern aversion to the persuasive power of evidence, misinformation will find a way.

But don’t let yourself be kidded into thinking only local investors are leaving coal behind.


https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ing-slow-coal-misinformation-distorting-facts
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,951
So some questions for you:
1. If Australia goes it alone and went to 100% renewable energy and stopped the mining and export of coal, do you believe that this action alone will reduce global emissions in any way?

2. What are the actual actions that you want Australia to take on climate change?

1. Silly question. Australia is not going it alone.
2. Meeting Paris commitments without accountancy shenanigans will be a good start.
 

Gary Gutful

Post Whore
Messages
53,156
Then what? What uncertainty is industry worried about? Surely if there's no existing regulation they can do what they like.
No regulation unfortunately doesn't mean no intervention.

In my experience when there is a policy vacuum industries cant do what they like. Quite the contrary, because Government often flip and flop and pick favourites depending on whatever they think will make them look better. Its an adhoc, case by case process with no consistency which makes planning difficult. Nothing kills an initiative quicker than uncertainty.

That said, I'm not suggesting it is the be all and end all. There was plenty of regulation that should have given Adani's project certainty but that still didn't stop political meddling.
 

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
17,415
The world is going slow on coal, but misinformation is distorting the facts

That is just "Under Construction", I said planned, which this article articulates well at 1600 . https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/climate/china-energy-companies-coal-plants-climate-change.html

(I'd post the entire article, but too many characters, so I've edited to emphasise the important bits, you can read it all above at the link)

As Beijing Joins Climate Fight, Chinese Companies Build Coal Plants

These Chinese corporations are building or planning to build more than 700 new coal plants at home and around the world, some in countries that today burn little or no coal, according to tallies compiled by Urgewald, an environmental group based in Berlin. Many of the plants are in China, but by capacity, roughly a fifth of these new coal power stations are in other countries.

Over all, 1,600 coal plants are planned or under construction in 62 countries, according to Urgewald’s tally, which uses data from the Global Coal Plant Tracker portal. The new plants would expand the world’s coal-fired power capacity by 43 percent.

The fleet of new coal plants would make it virtually impossible to meet the goals set in the Paris climate accord, which aims to keep the increase in global temperatures from preindustrial levels below 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit.

The United States may also be back in the game. On Thursday, Mr. Trump said he wanted to lift Obama-era restrictions on American financing for overseas coal projects as part of an energy policy focused on exports.

“We have nearly 100 years’ worth of natural gas and more than 250 years’ worth of clean, beautiful coal,” he said. “We will be dominant. We will export American energy all over the world, all around the globe.”

The frenzied addition of coal plants underscores how the world is set to remain dependent on coal for decades, despite fast growth in renewable energy sources, like wind and solar power...

But overseas, the Chinese are playing a different game.

Shanghai Electric Group, one of the country’s largest electrical equipment makers, has announced plans to build coal power plants in Egypt, Pakistan and Iran with a total capacity of 6,285 megawatts — almost 10 times the 660 megawatts of coal power it has planned in China.

The China Energy Engineering Corporation, which has no public plans to develop coal power in China, is building 2,200 megawatts’ worth of coal-fired power capacity in Vietnam and Malawi. Neither company responded to requests for comment.

Of the world’s 20 biggest coal plant developers, 11 are Chinese, according to a database published by Urgewald.

Much of China’s overseas push has come under a state initiative called “One Belt, One Road,” announced in 2013, which calls for up to $900 billion in infrastructure investments overseas, including high-speed railroads, ports, gas pipelines and power plants.

Some of the countries targeted for coal-power expansion, like Egypt or Pakistan, currently burn almost no coal, and the new coal plants could set the course of their national energy policies for decades, environmentalists warn.

In Egypt, coal projects by Shanghai Electric and other global developers are set to bring the country’s coal-fired capacity to 17,000 megawatts, from near zero, according to the Urgewald database.

Pakistan’s coal capacity is set to grow to 15,300 megawatts from 190. In Malawi, planned coal projects would bring its coal-fired capacity to 3,500 megawatts from zero.

The world’s single largest coal-plant developer is India’s National Thermal Power Corporation, which plans to build more than 38,000 megawatts of new coal capacity in India and Bangladesh. The corporation did not respond to an email query.

The AES Corporation, based in Arlington, Va., is building coal plants in India and the Philippines with a combined capacity of 1,700 megawatts. Amy Ackerman, a spokeswoman for the company, said it was shifting its focus to renewables and natural gas, and had no plans to build coal plants after its India and Philippines projects.

Japan’s Marubeni Corporation is involved in joint ventures for a combined 5,500 megawatts of new coal generation in Myanmar, Vietnam, Philippines and Indonesia, according to the database. Japan is also adding to its coal-fired capacity at home, to make up for an energy shortfall in the wake of the f**kushima nuclear disaster. A Marubeni spokesman confirmed projects in the four countries.


 
Last edited:

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
17,415
2. Meeting Paris commitments without accountancy shenanigans will be a good start.

If Australia not only met it's Paris targets, but significantly exceeded it, is it likely to reduce the affects of global warming in any way?

Presuming that other more significant emitters may not actually meet theirs.
 

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,491
Does supply side economics have anything relevant to say besides hello?

Relevance is relative.

But it does argue that demand is a consequence of supply, so provides a counterpoint to your assertion that demand drives supply.
 
Last edited:

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,491
Do you honestly believe that if Australia stopped selling coal tomorrow that India, China, Japan et al would just plan to stop buying it?

Collectively across the world there is a plan to build 1600 further coal fired power stations... whether Australia could be arsed selling it or not, coal will be procured from somewhere, .

If Australia suddenly withdrew it's supply of coal from world markets, what do you think would happen to the price of coal?

And what do you think may be the consequences of that in terms of demand?
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,951
If Australia suddenly withdrew it's supply of coal from world markets, what do you think would happen to the price of coal?

And what do you think may be the consequences of that in terms of demand?
Oh pick me, pick me !

The inflationary effect on the coal price would push the market to seek alternatives to coal powered energy generation?
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
77,951
That is just "Under Construction", I said planned, which this article articulates well at 1600 . https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/climate/china-energy-companies-coal-plants-climate-change.html

(I'd post the entire article, but too many characters, so I've edited to emphasise the important bits, you can read it all above at the link)

As Beijing Joins Climate Fight, Chinese Companies Build Coal Plants

These Chinese corporations are building or planning to build more than 700 new coal plants at home and around the world, some in countries that today burn little or no coal, according to tallies compiled by Urgewald, an environmental group based in Berlin. Many of the plants are in China, but by capacity, roughly a fifth of these new coal power stations are in other countries.

Over all, 1,600 coal plants are planned or under construction in 62 countries, according to Urgewald’s tally, which uses data from the Global Coal Plant Tracker portal. The new plants would expand the world’s coal-fired power capacity by 43 percent.

The fleet of new coal plants would make it virtually impossible to meet the goals set in the Paris climate accord, which aims to keep the increase in global temperatures from preindustrial levels below 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit.

The United States may also be back in the game. On Thursday, Mr. Trump said he wanted to lift Obama-era restrictions on American financing for overseas coal projects as part of an energy policy focused on exports.

“We have nearly 100 years’ worth of natural gas and more than 250 years’ worth of clean, beautiful coal,” he said. “We will be dominant. We will export American energy all over the world, all around the globe.”

The frenzied addition of coal plants underscores how the world is set to remain dependent on coal for decades, despite fast growth in renewable energy sources, like wind and solar power...

But overseas, the Chinese are playing a different game.

Shanghai Electric Group, one of the country’s largest electrical equipment makers, has announced plans to build coal power plants in Egypt, Pakistan and Iran with a total capacity of 6,285 megawatts — almost 10 times the 660 megawatts of coal power it has planned in China.

The China Energy Engineering Corporation, which has no public plans to develop coal power in China, is building 2,200 megawatts’ worth of coal-fired power capacity in Vietnam and Malawi. Neither company responded to requests for comment.

Of the world’s 20 biggest coal plant developers, 11 are Chinese, according to a database published by Urgewald.

Much of China’s overseas push has come under a state initiative called “One Belt, One Road,” announced in 2013, which calls for up to $900 billion in infrastructure investments overseas, including high-speed railroads, ports, gas pipelines and power plants.

Some of the countries targeted for coal-power expansion, like Egypt or Pakistan, currently burn almost no coal, and the new coal plants could set the course of their national energy policies for decades, environmentalists warn.

In Egypt, coal projects by Shanghai Electric and other global developers are set to bring the country’s coal-fired capacity to 17,000 megawatts, from near zero, according to the Urgewald database.

Pakistan’s coal capacity is set to grow to 15,300 megawatts from 190. In Malawi, planned coal projects would bring its coal-fired capacity to 3,500 megawatts from zero.

The world’s single largest coal-plant developer is India’s National Thermal Power Corporation, which plans to build more than 38,000 megawatts of new coal capacity in India and Bangladesh. The corporation did not respond to an email query.

The AES Corporation, based in Arlington, Va., is building coal plants in India and the Philippines with a combined capacity of 1,700 megawatts. Amy Ackerman, a spokeswoman for the company, said it was shifting its focus to renewables and natural gas, and had no plans to build coal plants after its India and Philippines projects.

Japan’s Marubeni Corporation is involved in joint ventures for a combined 5,500 megawatts of new coal generation in Myanmar, Vietnam, Philippines and Indonesia, according to the database. Japan is also adding to its coal-fired capacity at home, to make up for an energy shortfall in the wake of the f**kushima nuclear disaster. A Marubeni spokesman confirmed projects in the four countries.

Aand we are back to the but, but China argument.

I want us to be part of a global coalition leaning on those emerging countries to influence change. You on the other hand want to join the fuss only when everyone else is on board, if ever. Sorry, but you say you accept the science however you don’t seem to be too fussed on the timing. Methinks you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
 

Bandwagon

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
45,491
Oh pick me, pick me !

The inflationary effect on the coal price would push the market to seek alternatives to coal powered energy generation?

Well that would seem to make sense, unless you lived in some kinda funky 4th dimension where supply, demand, and price were completely decoupled from each other.
 

Twizzle

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
153,911
We should do whatever is right. Just like in life. You don't hurt someone cause someone else is ffs.

Plus the amount of work we would have going green would be huge. We should be pouring plenty in Solar and battery technology so other merkins can buy it from us.

google VRB (vanadium radox battery), sadly it may never be commercialized, stores large amounts of power and will never go flat

Imagine being able to sell clean power to other nations.

need a pretty long cable
 

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