OT: Current Affairs and Politics

[The Silverdale Phantom]

So what are your claims?

That the Australian public service could, if it wanted to, bring the federal government to its knees.

 

[Chipmunk]

That the Australian public service could, if they wanted to, bring the federal government to its knees.

Well I've said they couldn't and explained the reasons why.

You haven't really provided a genuine example of how they could actually bring the federal government to its knees.

The military could undertake a coup of the government of the day though. As extremely unlikely as it is to occur, it is far more likely than the public service ever being able to bring the federal government to its knees.

Your perceptions of the public service is an outsiders view that isn't really reality.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

Well I've said they couldn't and explained the reasons why.

You haven't really provided a genuine example of how they could actually bring the federal government to its knees.

The military could undertake a coup of the government of the day though. As extremely unlikely as it is to occur, it is far more likely than the public service ever being able to bring the federal government to its knees.

Your perceptions of the public service is an outsiders view that isn't really reality.

You’re wrong on so many counts there that it’s laughable, especially in relation to my perceptions.

You have simply failed to counter my assertion with anything reasonable.

Not that I am in the grip of panic about it.

If you think the federal government can bundy on without public servants that is a matter for you. Good luck.

 

[Chipmunk]

You’re wrong on so many counts there that it’s laughable, especially in relation to my perceptions.

You have simply failed to counter my assertion with anything reasonable.

Not that I am in the grip of panic about it.

If you think the federal government can bundy on without public servants that is a matter for you. Good luck.

You still haven't provided an example of how the public service could bring the governments to its knees?

The government of the day doesn't actually need the public service.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

You still haven't provided an example of how the public service could bring the governments to its knees?

The government of the day doesn't actually need the public service.

It needs it to govern.

govern

1. to control and direct the public business of a country, city, group of…

dictionary.cambridge.org

That is the definition I am working with (or similar).

 

[Chipmunk]

It needs it to govern.

No it doesn't, the government of the day just needs people to undertake all of its administrative bureaucratic processes.

The government of the day already has its own employees outside of the public service. It just decides that the most simplest and easiest way to get all of those administrative bureaucratic processes done is to have the public service do it all. It could actually just have ridiculously less people in the public service, and essentially employ all of the people it needs directly as their own staff of the government of the day...but that would be a far more difficult and bureaucratically cumbersome process, so they choose the most efficient and easiest option, which is to fund a public service. The public service exists for the government of the day....not the other way around.

If in the very very unlikely event that the government of the day ever thought it's public service could be in a position to bring it to its knees, it would act very quicky to ensure that would never happen.

 

[Chipmunk]

It needs it to govern.

govern

1. to control and direct the public business of a country, city, group of…

dictionary.cambridge.org

That is the definition I am working with (or similar).

The public service doesn't govern the country. That is not its role.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

No it doesn't, the government of the day just needs people to undertake all of its administrative bureaucratic processes.

The government of the day already has its own employees outside of the public service. It just decides that the most simplest and easiest way to get all of those administrative bureaucratic processes done is to have the public service do it all. It could actually just have ridiculously less people in the public service, and essentially employ all of the people it needs directly as their own staff of the government of the day...but that would be a far more difficult and bureaucratically cumbersome process, so they choose the most efficient and easiest option, which is to fund a public service. The public service exists for the government of the day....not the other way around.

If in the very very unlikely event that the government of the day ever thought it's public service could be in a position to bring it to its knees, it would act very quicky to ensure that would never happen.

There’s too much wrong with this thesis to take seriously.

I’d say the federal police could probably take out every member of parliament in an afternoon.

Maybe the military could simply bomb parliament during sittings?

I don’t think Albo and his staff waving a white flag and surrendering his first class qantas tickets would have too much effect.

 

[Chipmunk]

There’s too much wrong with this thesis to take seriously.

I’d say the federal police could probably take out every member of parliament in an afternoon.

Maybe the military could simply bomb parliament during sittings?

I don’t think Albo and his staff waving a white flag and surrendering his first class qantas tickets would have too much effect.

Neither of those entities, the AFP or the ADF, are part of the public service.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

The public service doesn't govern the country. That is not its role.

It doesn’t matter what it’s role is, what matters is how powerful it is.

And if it takes a particular dislike to any government, it can create absolute mayhem.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

Neither of those entities, the AFP or the ADF, are part of the public service.

Ok, I’ll have to settle for 37,000 services Australia employees in maga hats.

What about a go-slow on family tax benefit A and B?

Perhaps the ATO can stop collecting taxes?

 

[Chipmunk]

It doesn’t matter what it’s role is, what matters is how powerful it is.

And if it takes a particular dislike to any government, it can create absolute mayhem.

Rubbish...it has no power...and any power it has can be replaced with immediate effect.

Each head of each public service department is appointed and dismissed at the whim of the government of the day. They can be replaced within minutes. After that, everyone below them has to comply with any lawful and reasonable direction given to them by the head of their department. Failute to comply is a breach of the APS Code of Conduct. Any breach of the APS Code of Conduct could lead to termination of employment.

What your proposing would lead to public servants stop being paid, which is all 99.99% of public servants actually care about at the end of the day.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

Rubbish...it has no power...and any power it has can be replaced with immediate effect.

Each head of each public service department is appointed and dismissed at the whim of the government of the day. They can be replaced within minutes. After that, everyone below them has to comply with any lawful and reasonable direction given to them by the head of their department. Failute to comply is a breach of the APS Code of Conduct. Any breach of the APS Code of Conduct could lead to termination of employment.

What your proposing would lead to public servants stop being paid, which is all 99.99% of public servants actually care about at the end of the day.

Nope, all I said is that if they wanted to, the public service could bring the government to its knees.

If they are prepared to, that’s what would happen.

That would obviously take a few out of their comfort zone, but it would be what it would be.

A code of conduct doesn’t count for anything compared to human conduct.

 

[Chipmunk]

Ok, I’ll have to settle for 37,000 services Australia employees in maga hats.

What about a go-slow on family tax benefit A and B?

Perhaps the ATO can stop collecting taxes?

You would have to agree that any action to do that would be one of the following:

• not behave with integrity
• not act with care and diligence
• not comply with any lawful and reasonable direction given by someone in the employee's Agency who has authority to give the direction.
• not behave in a way that upholds the APS Values and Employment Principles, and the integrity and good reputation of the employee's Agency and the APS

If any public servant does any of the above, then that is a breach of the Code of Conduct. As pointed out above, a breach of the Code of Conduct can result in termination of employment.

 

[Chipmunk]

Nope, all I said is that if they wanted to, the public service could bring the government to its knees.

If they are prepared to, that’s what would happen.

That would obviously take a few out of their comfort zone, but it would be what it would be.

But the government controls the public service. It just sacks the relevant recalcitrant heads of agencies, employs new heads in their place, the new heads provide a direction to all of its public servants, and the public servants have to comply with the action or face termination.

All of that could actually all be done within less than 15 minutes.

On both sides though this is all a very very very remotely unlikely scenario.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

You would have to agree that any action to do that would be one of the following:

• not behave with integrity
• not act with care and diligence
• not comply with any lawful and reasonable direction given by someone in the employee's Agency who has authority to give the direction.
• not behave in a way that upholds the APS Values and Employment Principles, and the integrity and good reputation of the employee's Agency and the APS

If any public servant does any of the above, then that is a breach of the Code of Conduct. As pointed out above, a breach of the Code of Conduct can result in termination of employment.

A code of conduct isn’t going to protect a government if it’s public servants wants to bring it to it knees.

Chamberlain had his bit of paper guaranteeing peace in his time.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

If the public servants want to bring a government to its knees, they aren’t going to worry too much about rules and things.

They are simply going to sabotage the processes because they know how it works and they can.

No one is going to worry about Code of Conduct and cite Section 3578.568.FA

“ A public servant must not bring a government to its knees.”

 

[Chipmunk]

A code of conduct isn’t going to protect a government if it’s public servants wants to bring it to it knees.

Chamberlain had his bit of paper guaranteeing peace in his time.

The entire ascertion that the public service could bring a government of the day to its knees, as you have suggested, is just ridiculous.

Unlike the military, and the AFP, and others, the public service is essentially part of the government of the day.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

The entire ascertion that the public service could bring a government of the day to its knees, as you have suggested, is just ridiculous.

Unlike the military, and the AFP, and others, the public service is essentially part of the government of the day.

No, public servants are not parliamentarians. They do not enact laws.

It doesn’t matter whether you think my claim is ridiculous or not.

The assertion was that public servants, if they wanted to, could bring the government to its knees.

Whether they actually would or not is a different argument.

I imagine some would like to, others not.

 

[Chipmunk]

If the public servants want to bring a government to its knees, they aren’t going to worry too much about rules and things.

They are simply going to sabotage the processes because they know how it works and they can.

No one is going to worry about Code of Conduct and cite Section 3578.568.FA

“ A public servant must not bring a government to its knees.”

But how in reality would they actually get every one of the 150,000 plus people to all think the same way to bring down a government at the same time?

Your examples of 'the ATO stop collecting taxes' and 'Services Australia go slow on welfare payments', the people looking after that process would just get replaced by someone who would follow directions. You only need one person to follow the directions to make the other 149,999 redundant.

In fact, you don't need any of the 150,000...you just get one of your own government of the day staff to go and do it.