Pacific Cup 2024

[Wheeled Warrior]

Not interested in any player that places NZ second to Origin.
You either want to play for the mighty Kiwis or piss off.
Stain of Origin can rot too.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Not interested in any player that places NZ second to Origin.
You either want to play for the mighty Kiwis or piss off.
Stain of Origin can rot too.

Fair enough - but then I take it you also believe that the Tongan and Samoan players are equally disrespecting their national sides by playing Origin, and that Tongan and Samoan supporters should be telling half their sides to piss off?

I'm all for loyalty but when everyone else is benefitting from their disloyalty, I start to wonder what the point is.

 

[Matua]

Fair enough - but then I take it you also believe that the Tongan and Samoan players are equally disrespecting their national sides by playing Origin, and that Tongan and Samoan supporters should be telling half their sides to piss off?

I'm all for loyalty but when everyone else is benefitting from their disloyalty, I start to wonder what the point is.

Tamou is the worst, Maori but chose Origin. We should revoke that prick's passport.

Also, that's not quite analogous as Tongan's and Samoan's can play origin and play for their national side. With NZ players they make a choice on the national team when choosing origin, with PIs they make a choice on a state representative side only.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Tamou is the worst, Maori but chose Origin. We should revoke that prick's passport.

Also, that's not quite analogous as Tongan's and Samoan's can play origin and play for their national side. With NZ players they make a choice on the national team when choosing origin, with PIs they make a choice on a state representative side only.

I know it's not analogous, and it's not analogous because the system is unfair. I think the harsh reality is that basically everyone who is Origin eligible and in the frame for selection, chooses to play Origin. When a Kiwi does it he becomes a traitor by definition, when a Tongan or Samoan does it they can still claim loyalty to their nation. I honestly think everyone is in pretty much the same boat (prioritising Origin) but the Tongan and Samoan reps get to pretend they're choosing their country.

What we don't know is how many of those Tongan-Kiwis and Samoan-Kiwis are actually also traitors, who would've played for the Kiwis if it was an option but selected Samoa or Tonga because it enabled them to play Origin. Of course, we have two glaring examples in Leota and Mulitalo, who openly stated they wanted to play Origin and only defected to the Kiwis when they realised they were ineligible. They are literally self-confessed traitors. I'm not sure I can identify anyone in the frame for Origin who has chosen the Kiwis?

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Basically - who was the last bloke who didn't do a Tamou? It sucks, but that's actually a pretty tough question to answer.

 

[Matua]

Going the other way Foran is the best. Always chose NZ despite being eligible and good enough for Origin.

But agree, would be interesting to see what PI NZers would do if they could represent NZ and Origin. Luai played Junior Kiwis and is Maori, but he's a born and bred NSWelshman so can see why he'd want to play Origin.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Yeah Foran is the best example I can think of and he debuted 15 years ago (plus we got to him very young, before he was in NSW contention, unlike Tamou where we made a bit of a blunder by not picking him in 2011 or earlier).

 

[Beavers Headgear]

Tamou is the worst, Maori but chose Origin. We should revoke that prick's passport.

Also, that's not quite analogous as Tongan's and Samoan's can play origin and play for their national side. With NZ players they make a choice on the national team when choosing origin, with PIs they make a choice on a state representative side only.

How do you feel about Ronaldo ?

 

[Matua]

How do you feel about Ronaldo ?

He should probably be playing for Samoa, but as he's not Maori I don't have the same hatred for him for choosing Origin as Tamou.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

He should probably be playing for Samoa, but as he's not Maori I don't have the same hatred for him for choosing Origin as Tamou.

Tonie Carroll is the all time worst for me

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Tamou is the worst, Maori but chose Origin. We should revoke that prick's passport.

Also, that's not quite analogous as Tongan's and Samoan's can play origin and play for their national side. With NZ players they make a choice on the national team when choosing origin, with PIs they make a choice on a state representative side only.

I see what MV is talking about. How is it any different playing for Tonga/NSW than it is playing for NZ/NSW? The only previous difference was that Tonga was a tier 2 nation, which they now aren't. I get what they're trying to do, to make Tonga/Samoa genuinely strong nations to give more relevance to international league. And it's worth doing. But now that Tonga/Samoa are, at times, genuine threats to the 'tier 1' nations, I can't see a lot of justification that Crichton/Luai can play for NSW and Samoa but someone like Mulitalo can't play for QLD.

 

[Matua]

Tonie Carroll is the all time worst for me

I don't care that much about him, the rules were the rules back then, he was Aussie through and through so the Kiwis should never have selected him.

I love Brad Thorn the rugby player but hate the league player version of him. If you're Kiwi enough for the ABs you should be Kiwi enough for the Kiwis.

 

[Matua]

I see what MV is talking about. How is it any different playing for Tonga/NSW than it is playing for NZ/NSW? The only previous difference was that Tonga was a tier 2 nation, which they now aren't. I get what they're trying to do, to make Tonga/Samoa genuinely strong nations to give more relevance to international league. And it's worth doing. But now that Tonga/Samoa are, at times, genuine threats to the 'tier 1' nations, I can't see a lot of justification that Crichton/Luai can play for NSW and Samoa but someone like Mulitalo can't play for QLD.

Why do you and MV think, via implication in your posts, that I'm happy with the situation as it is now. I'm merely pointing out that's how it it. It's utter tutae that it's one rule for the PIs and one rule for us but that's an Aussie dominated sport for you.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

I don't care that much about him, the rules were the rules back then, he was Aussie through and through so the Kiwis should never have selected him.

I love Brad Thorn the rugby player but hate the league player version of him. If you're Kiwi enough for the ABs you should be Kiwi enough for the Kiwis.

Na, Carroll took the Kiwis jersey and wiped his arse with it. He is an absolute stain to go back when he realised he might play origin again

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I think if we're 'fair dinkum' about it, Origin should be for anyone who qualifies. Obviously someone like Shaun Johnson can't play just because he played a couple of years at the Sharks but lived in NZ his whole life, but if you grew up in NSW or whatever, play Origin and nominate your country. And once you've played for someone at rep level - Junior Kiwis, NSW juniors, whatever - that's your side. Although I guess that may become an issue for players who want to play international rep football as a junior if they're Tongan/Samoan

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Why do you and MV think, via implication in your posts, that I'm happy with the situation as it is now. I'm merely pointing out that's how it it. It's utter tutae that it's one rule for the PIs and one rule for us but that's an Aussie dominated sport for you.

I wasn't trying to infer that, more that I see what he's saying. He can see the lack of clarity around how you could play Origin and for a PI team, but not Origin + NZ, given they're all Tier 1 nations

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I don't care that much about him, the rules were the rules back then, he was Aussie through and through so the Kiwis should never have selected him.

I love Brad Thorn the rugby player but hate the league player version of him. If you're Kiwi enough for the ABs you should be Kiwi enough for the Kiwis.

Can't love (or like) any version of Thorn for that exact reason. The biggest glory-hunter of all time, not just picking and choosing his nationality based on who had the stronger team but playing for the Broncos and Crusaders too. The hard man who always needed everything set up for him to be as easy as possible...

Carroll was bad too but he wasn't "Aussie through and through", he's an NZ-born Maori with two Kiwi parents (which just makes it worse, how flippantly he backflipped).

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Why do you and MV think, via implication in your posts, that I'm happy with the situation as it is now. I'm merely pointing out that's how it it. It's utter tutae that it's one rule for the PIs and one rule for us but that's an Aussie dominated sport for you.

Not implying that at all, although from my perspective it's you who keeps picking in holes in what I'm saying even though I'm agreeing with you? To me it's like we're on the same page but you keep misinterpreting what I'm getting at somehow.

Anyway, no hard feelings from my end. I am aware I have quite a particular issue on this stuff that doesn't line up with the way a lot of people see it.

 

[Matua]

Not implying that at all, although from my perspective it's you who keeps picking in holes in what I'm saying even though I'm agreeing with you? To me it's like we're on the same page but you keep misinterpreting what I'm getting at somehow.

Anyway, no hard feelings from my end. I am aware I have quite a particular issue on this stuff that doesn't line up with the way a lot of people see it.

Me too.

My only issue was with your initial analogy because I don't think a PI player playing Origin and for their nation is disrespecting their nation (the only asterisk there being if they have another nation too e.g. NZ).

I think we're all in agreeance that it's B/S that NZ is being unfairly penalised by the current eligibility.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I think we're all in agreeance that it's B/S that NZ is being unfairly penalised by the current eligibility.

100%. I don't think there is any difference now.

Change the criteria, so you have to have a bonafide connection to NSW if you are going to play for NZ/Samoa/Tonga. But there's no chance that will happen, they'll let Kiwis players into Origin over their cold, dead bodies. And they give no shits about international footy.