Pacific Cup 2024

[RHYTHM AND STEALTH]

For all the younger ones now, big factor is they can have their cake and eat it too currently, in regards to Origin

Promote Tonga to where they should be, Tier 1, and then let’s have a look at it

Personally as soon as Maguire took the Origin job, I immediately said he couldn’t do both, so I can’t bag them for that

1000% they are having their cake and eating to

Play Origin to get the cash
Play for Samoa/ Tonga for the heritage/culture

Its double dipping to the fullest.
Make them tier 1 status and stop this rort otherwise let Kiwis play Origin then

 

[blue bags]

1000% they are having their cake and eating to

Play Origin to get the cash
Play for Samoa/ Tonga for the heritage/culture

Its double dipping to the fullest.
Make them tier 1 status and stop this rort otherwise let Kiwis play Origin then

Double Up
Double Dipping
It's a rort. It's interfering with origin

 

[Matua]

Two days later and I'm still pee-d off at this result. Rant incoming.

That was a pathetic display from selections down to the poor game management at the end.

I 100% do not buy into any claims we were the underdogs due to a weakened team. Even with a weakened team we should have won. The fact is we got to within 1 point after a first half where we shed 24 points and could barely complete a set without an error and then we should have put the game away before the Tongans got their drop goal.

It was rank stupidity to go into this series with a plan to play a fullback who had an average season as our starting 6, instead of a guy who genuinely had a good season at 6. Love Stacey as a player but getting Kidwell vibes from him as a coach.

The big names in our pack didn't fire a shot in the first half, then came right in the second, if they'd done it from the start we'd have won that.

We made Tui look like a competent half in that first 40, and fat Taumololo look like he was good again.

AFB was never going to pass that close to the line, why hang off him? They did it late in the game too, just hit him when he starts dancing around. TBF getting him to the ground is easier said than done but at least freaking try.

Why was Niukore playing and Riki sitting in the stands. Niukore living off a couple of good years rep, he was mostly mud this year when not injured.

The NZ crowd was pathetic. Turn up for the Warriors yet allow Tonga to take over the ground for test rugby.

Rant over (for now).

Good things. Loved the passion that Crossland showed playing for the Kiwis, he seems like another Foran who will give his all for us despite being raised in Oz. Neame has had great impact. Kini is a talent, a pity he was expected to play 1 and 6 at the same time.

Other things. I dislike Ka Mate so much prefer the Kiwis own haka.

I don't care about Origin from the point of view of players playing for Tonga. There's not many in that team I consider genuine players who really wanted to be Kiwis, Fat Taumalolo yep back in the day, but even a guy like AFB is tenuous, he only used us because he wasn't picked by Tonga. Our NZ Samoans have mostly stayed loyal too. But I think since we're getting beaten by supposed tier 2 teams then is should be opened up to NZers and Origin, therefore guys like Howarth and Ponga could play origin and NZ.

Was going to go to the game next week (Commbank is a great stadium) but my two mates have both said they're not keen after that display. So now, I'm not sure what I'll do. The ticket price would have been fine for two games, but I'll likely bugger off after the Kiwis match as I hate both those two teams playing the final.

 

[ozenzud]

I was wrong in backing the legend as a coach.
Stacey is not a good coach. That is all.

Well lucky I wasn't coach. I would have pulled Kini before half time! I thought he was almost single handedly losing it for us....on reflection, the forwards probably did. Even JFH was shite in that first 30.

 

[Wheeled Warrior]

Well lucky I wasn't coach. I would have pulled Kini before half time! I thought he was almost single handedly losing it for us....on reflection, the forwards probably did. Even JFH was shite in that first 30.

JFH played pretty shite. The coach had a stupid idea that he persisted with for that first period and in the end it costed us. Madge be loling at his whare right now. NZRL are a joke.

 

[taste2taste]

Can we just go back to a normal old fashioned haka ?

Don’t know if there is anything in it, but all the big boppers that put so much into the pre match performance were awful for the 20mins after it

The current Hakka is too long, it’s a bit cringy.

The kemata was short, sweet and freaking scary, the all blacks still do it occasionally.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

But I think since we're getting beaten by supposed tier 2 teams then is should be opened up to NZers and Origin, therefore guys like Howarth and Ponga could play origin and NZ.

Bennet advocated for that change quite recently but given it'd only only expose the Roos to a potentially stronger Kiwi team with no benefit to them, I'll be surprised if it happens anytime soon. If at all.

There's too much self interest at play and if I'm honest, I don't blame them. If we were in the same situation we'd probably be the same. Certainly in the other code we're just as guilty of that sort of protectionism. Probably more so.

 

[Matua]

Bennet advocated for that change quite recently but given it'd only only expose the Roos to a potentially stronger Kiwi team with no benefit to them, I'll be surprised if it happens anytime soon. If at all.

There's too much self interest at play and if I'm honest, I don't blame them. If we were in the same situation we'd probably be the same. Certainly in the other code we're just as guilty of that sort of protectionism. Probably more so.

Well I think that bold is untrue, we provide the majority of the Samoan team, we bankroll a PI super team, and we don't designate the AB XV as our second team so it wont tie in any PI players.

But agree with the rest.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Agre with the sentiment on Jones. He’s had plenty of time now and he’s never exhibited any exceptional coaching ability as an assistant, head coach or rep coach. Hes living off his reputation as a kiwis and warriors legend and nice guy.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

You have to ask yourself why they have chosen Tonga over Kiwis?
To me the NZRL seems to be a continual shit storm of incompetent decision making and the appeal/offer of playing for Kiwis is not appealing to those that have a choice and feel a closer connection to Tonga, Samoa etc.

I doubt the administration of the code has much to do with it. I think there are two main factors

(1) The State of Origin eligibility rules encouraging players to select tier 2 nations

(2) A broader cultural issue where, as you say, players feel a "closer connection" to the country of their ethnic heritage as opposed to the country they are actually born and raised in.

I am out of my element trying to explain this phenomenon, but it does seem to me that this is more prevalent in certain cultures than others. Compare for example the Indian-Kiwi in the Black Caps who are at pains to say that they are 100% Kiwi. It seems like (ethnic) Tongans in particular perceive themselves as Tongan irrespective of how far removed they are from Tonga, the actual real physical place that exists.

On a purely personal level, not trying to tell anyone else how to feel, but this really pisses me off. I hate it for many reasons, but I know that that's purely coming from my own cultural perspective. In my view international sport, in fact representative sport generally, has always been primarily about representing a place, representing where you are from. Representing a race or an ethnicity is also valid but it's something separate altogether. I don't like that being altered and "international" rugby league becoming some sort of pseudo-race warfare instead. I don't like how the Kiwis used to represent the diversity of players who come from New Zealand, and that is being watered down because New Zealanders of certain ethnicities don't want to identify as New Zealanders.

It's complicated and I'd never purport to be able to tell someone else how to feel - but I'm within my rights to state how I feel, and I hate it. It's regressive AND more importantly it's bad for my team.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

And yeah all that aside, we still should've won and I'm filthy about how we played.

 

[RHYTHM AND STEALTH]

I doubt the administration of the code has much to do with it. I think there are two main factors

(1) The State of Origin eligibility rules encouraging players to select tier 2 nations

(2) A broader cultural issue where, as you say, players feel a "closer connection" to the country of their ethnic heritage as opposed to the country they are actually born and raised in.

I am out of my element trying to explain this phenomenon, but it does seem to me that this is more prevalent in certain cultures than others. Compare for example the Indian-Kiwi in the Black Caps who are at pains to say that they are 100% Kiwi. It seems like (ethnic) Tongans in particular perceive themselves as Tongan irrespective of how far removed they are from Tonga, the actual real physical place that exists.

On a purely personal level, not trying to tell anyone else how to feel, but this really pisses me off. I hate it for many reasons, but I know that that's purely coming from my own cultural perspective. In my view international sport, in fact representative sport generally, has always been primarily about representing a place, representing where you are from. Representing a race or an ethnicity is also valid but it's something separate altogether. I don't like that being altered and "international" rugby league becoming some sort of pseudo-race warfare instead. I don't like how the Kiwis used to represent the diversity of players who come from New Zealand, and that is being watered down because New Zealanders of certain ethnicities don't want to identify as New Zealanders.

It's complicated and I'd never purport to be able to tell someone else how to feel - but I'm within my rights to state how I feel, and I hate it. It's regressive AND more importantly it's bad for my team.

This!!
Tonga and Samoa are now Tier 1 nations which is what we all want for the international game.
But they cant have it both ways and double dip in Origin as well

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I realise also there’s massive irony in me being named after a Kiwi great who now openly supports Tonga over us

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Interesting also that Naufahu Whyte is Tongan but a massively proud Kiwi. I sometimes wonder if this is more prevalent in kids with a Union background where there’s more emphasis on playing for the national team?

 

[Blair]

How many players choose Tonga or Samoa over New Zealand...in rugby?

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

This!!
Tonga and Samoa are now Tier 1 nations which is what we all want for the international game.
But they cant have it both ways and double dip in Origin as well

That’s not on them though.

The Origin eligibility rules already state a player must be eligible for, and elect to play for, Australia. There’s actually nothing there that explicitly allows Tier 2 aligned players to be selected.

The loophole exists because of separate IRL rules designed to improve international footy that allow players to declare dual eligibility for a Tier 1 and a Tier 2/3 nation (if they qualify for both) and then also allows those players to switch between the two during each calendar year.

Australia are exploiting that loophole in a way that keeps PI aligned players available for Origin, thereby preserving the Origin cash cow, while also protecting the Roos by excluding NZ/Eng players.

So if anyone is double dipping it’s Australia, not the PI nations. The ARLC could close the loophole tomorrow if they wanted but it works in their favour.

But then as I posted earlier, I don’t blame them for prioritising their own patch. We’d probably do the same if it was reversed.

 

[Matua]

How players choose Tonga or Samoa over New Zealand...in rugby?

Richie Mo'unga's nephew chose Fiji over NZ which is interesting as he Samoan, Tongan, Kiwi and Fijian. But I doubt many PI NZers do. They'll happily go when the AB door closes though.

Are there actually that many genuine should have played for NZ in this series players who played for Tonga? I don't think there is. There's Taumalolo, we all know why that Judas left, AFB is basically an Aussie-Tongan, Tui probably wouldn't have got a start with us anyway even with all our other 6's out, Havilli is the same, most of the others are Aussie, moved to Aussie young and eligible for Origin, and then Elesi Katoa is actually Tonga Tongan.

I'm not too worried about the Tongans, it's when Samoans started switching in big numbers that we'll be in trouble, but currently, the ghost of RTS aside, they mostly have stayed loyal. Isaako even went for one game for his old man and then came back.

@Manu Vatuvei I thought Whyte was Cookie all this time.

I can understand the sentiment of the PI Kiwis though, a lot of Maori feel the same way in Oz even if born here. My cousins kids would say they're Kiwis if you asked them, in their full blown Aussie accents.

 

[hitro]

Seems to me as a person that lives in Auckland that a lot of people with Tongan ancestry will go to the Tongan Church for a party/wedding all day Saturday, worship/hang out all day Sunday and also all day for a midweek funeral. Old people, young people and children. So they live in NZ but they are very focused on being Tongan. I'm not moaning or criticising, this is what I see and it's neat

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

I'm not too worried about the Tongans, it's when Samoans started switching in big numbers that we'll be in trouble, but currently, the ghost of RTS aside, they mostly have stayed loyal. Isaako even went for one game for his old man and then came back.

Luai was quoted a couple weeks back saying Haas would’ve toured with them if fit. If true, the Samoan exodus could be underway.

A locked in starter like him jumping ship in the prime of his career would almost certainly influence Samoa eligible players on both sides of the ditch.

 

[Matua]

Luai was quoted a couple weeks back saying Haas would’ve toured with them if fit. If true, the Samoan exodus could be underway.

A locked in starter like him jumping ship in the prime of his career would almost certainly influence Samoa eligible players on both sides of the ditch.

TBH, I don't think that Haas has the same mana (not sure of the Samoan equivalent word) amongst the NZ Samoans as what RTS has - he would be a bigger influence. And most of the Oz Samoans already play for Samoa anyway.