PNG's back.

[docbrown]

Who said anything about the clubs?

That sort of project should be organised by the NRL as part of a strategic plan, not be left to the handful of clubs whom have the time and resources to go in individually and without any organisation.

Besides multiple clubs since at least the 90s have tried to set up dedicated programs to source players from PNG, and all of them have hit a brick wall when it comes to getting the players they find visas. So to say they have been extremely lazy about it is just wrong, it's just that any attempts that have been made are lucky to get 1 in 10 of the players they scout onto Australian shores, which has made it an unsustainable prospect.
Visas will probably still be a problem, however in the current political climate, and with the NRL's pull, you may be able to get the government to cooperate in creating a program to help make getting Papuan players visas easier.

Every time this discussion comes up I always come back to the same point though; why spend that kind of money in places like PNG and the other PI's when the grassroots and junior pathways are so underdeveloped within most of Australia?

For a similar investment of money and resources, and significantly less headaches, you could see similar, if not better, results simply by investing in creating pro-pathways in the underserved regions of country NSW and QLD, and that's without even addressing the almost totally untapped potential in the other states and territories. So why bother at all with expensive international projects when there's still so much that could be done here in Australia?

Investment within Australia would have significantly higher commercial return as well, but that's a whole other angle to come at it from.

Without the Hunters it’s club officials signing players. Otherwise you’re paying for an operation out of NRL HQ. How many staff are you employing to do it? 4 to 5 full time salaries plus benefits is headed towards half a million. Look at the doc Perth Red posted. It’s $618k in grants. It’s about the same. So you can either pay the money to a bunch of suits or pay it to a club to actual have players run and get game time each week. By the way $222k is bugger all for DFAT spending and it’s never going to be spent in regional NSW or QLD, so it’s not taking anything away from those places. I don’t really buy the premise of your argument.

 

[The Great Dane]

Without the Hunters it’s club officials signing players. Otherwise you’re paying for an operation out of NRL HQ. How many staff are you employing to do it? 4 to 5 full time salaries plus benefits is headed towards half a million. Look at the doc Perth Red posted. It’s $618k in grants. It’s about the same. So you can either pay the money to a bunch of suits or pay it to a club to actual have players run and get game time each week. By the way $222k is bugger all for DFAT spending and it’s never going to be spent in regional NSW or QLD, so it’s not taking anything away from those places. I don’t really buy the premise of your argument.

You know there's really no point in talking to you if you refuse to engage with what has actually been said...

Every one of your responses to me is just you trying to insert premises I don't hold into my argument, then me wasting my time fighting those premises. It's the weakest form of straw manning that wastes everybody's time and prevents the discussion moving forward in any productive manner.

I mean absolutely nobody, except you wink-wink, thought I was suggesting that DFAT would/could/should divert their grant from PNG to regional Australia FFS. I mean one of the main thrusts of my whole argument is that those sorts of government grants are unreliable, so I wouldn't even take it if they would consider offering such a grant to regional Australia, which I'm well aware will never happen BTW.

Framing my argument as giving the money to a 'bunch of suits' (which shows that you're absolutely clueless, dishonest, or both) or 'pay it to a club to actually have players run and get game time each week' is BS as well, but I pose the question to you; If PNG is supposedly bursting at the brim with talent just waiting for their shot at the NRL (which is what most people posit), and your stated purpose of supporting the Hunters is to 'guarantee' a pro pathway for Papuan players to the NRL, then why has only one/two(?) ex-Hunters made it as regular NRL players in their almost decade of existence?

If your method was so effective you'd expect at least half a dozen players to have made their way into the NRL by now, but it hasn't happened. In other words the Hunters aren't even achieving the goal you expect them to, so why would you waste resources on clones of them?

BTW, the Hunters annual report doesn't include other grants the Australian government and NRL have made into the Hunters and other supporting infrastructure in PNG RL over the past decade. Those grants would be in the tens of millions by now, and the Minister for Sport recently announced a further $2.2mil two months ago. All that money stacks up, the Hunters and progress in junior development in PNG wouldn't be sustainable without it, and you wouldn't need to invest anywhere near as much into programs in Australia, or NZ for that matter. NZ is a whole other discussion though.

 

[Perth Red]

In the grand scheme of things the amount of Papuan players in the NRL will have little to no impact on the game whatsoever.

Look I'm not having a go at PNG, the nature of their situation just is what it is, but PNG isn't going to develop into a significant commercial market for the NRL for a very long time, maybe not ever, and it doesn't matter how Papuan players the NRL brings through.

The same can not be said of VIC, WA, SA, NZ, and potentially other more exotic markets, where concerted efforts to grow the sport can and will result in significant returns in the future.

I think it has to be both tbh. Your perth and adelaides bring commercial returns to the nrl, and your nz’s, PI’s and PNG bring the players. A strong comp needs both. ROI can come in different forms.

A second png qrl club for $750k plus another $1mill for jnr pathways in png is a small spend if it returns dozens of Justin olams. There’s $25mill missing out of grassroots funding last year, put 10% of the missing money into png grassroots and a second qrl team and reap the rewards.

 

[The Great Dane]

I think it has to be both tbh. Your perth and adelaides bring commercial returns to the nrl, and your nz’s, PI’s and PNG bring the players. A strong comp needs both. ROI can come in different forms.

A second png qrl club for $750k plus another $1mill for jnr pathways in png is a small spend if it returns dozens of Justin olams. There’s $25mill missing out of grassroots funding last year, put 10% of the missing money into png grassroots and a second qrl team and reap the rewards.

If PNG is supposedly bursting at the brim with talent just waiting for their shot at the NRL (which is what most people posit), and your stated purpose of supporting the Hunters is to 'guarantee' a pro pathway for Papuan players to the NRL, then why has only one/two(?) ex-Hunters made it as regular NRL players in their almost decade of existence?

If your method was so effective you'd expect at least half a dozen players to have made their way into the NRL by now, but it hasn't happened. In other words the Hunters aren't even achieving the goal you expect them to, so why would you waste resources on clones of them?

You're not going to to get dozens of Olams, that's a fantasy, and WA and SA could become relatively strong junior nurseries within a generation if we put any effort into them whatsoever.

Australian RL needs to stop wasting time and money in tiny markets overseas that will do nothing for it in the long run at the expense of it's own backyard. Our own backyard is where the real money is, and it's in a massive state of disrepair.

We also need to stop underselling local athletes and invest in them instead of allowing other sports to hoover them up. We don't want to end up like Australia RU where they allowed the goose that laid the golden egg to die because they were too focused on looking outward.

The only reason people push for programs in places like PNG is because they're ignorant of the state of the game here, or this weird, vaguely bigoted, middle class metropolitan attitude of exoticism.

 

[Perth Red]

You're not going to to get dozens of Olams, that's a fantasy, and WA and SA could become relatively strong junior nurseries within a generation if we put any effort into them whatsoever.

Australian RL needs to stop wasting time and money in tiny markets overseas that will do nothing for it in the long run at the expense of it's own backyard. Our own backyard is where the real money is, and it's in a massive state of disrepair.

We also need to stop underselling local athletes and invest in them instead of allowing other sports to hoover them up. We don't want to end up like Australia RU where they allowed the goose that laid the golden egg to die because they were too focused on looking outward.

The only reason people push for programs in places like PNG is because they're ignorant of the state of the game here, or this weird, vaguely bigoted, middle class metropolitan attitude of exoticism.

As they say, why not both? It’s no coincidence half the nrl are kiwi/PI decent. And png isnt a little pool, it’s one of the largest pool of jnr rl p,layers in the world. You’d need to spend ten times in WA what you could spend in PNG to get talent. That’s not to say we shouldn’t be doing both. Like I said there’s $25mill missing in grassroots funding last year. Put that back into new player market growth in the isalnds, nz, Vic and WA and voila talent for 20 Clubs!

after years of trying we’ve finally just got a 5th development officer for WA. It’s pathetic!

 

[MugaB]

As they say, why not both? It’s no coincidence half the nrl are kiwi/PI decent. And png isnt a little pool, it’s one of the largest pool of jnr rl p,layers in the world. You’d need to spend ten times in WA what you could spend in PNG to get talent. That’s not to say we shouldn’t be doing both. Like I said there’s $25mill missing in grassroots funding last year. Put that back into new player market growth in the isalnds, nz, Vic and WA and voila talent for 20
Clubs!

Easier to fund an actual PNG 1st grade club...
Then those who aspire to it, and can't make it get poached or go to market for the remaining clubs... its the current business model of the panthers (yes this isnt png) but if you can fund it, we can flood the game with 20% of the games players from there, where right now its 40% PI

 

[Perth Red]

Easier to fund an actual PNG 1st grade club...
Then those who aspire to it, and can't make it get poached or go to market for the remaining clubs... its the current business model of the panthers (yes this isnt png) but if you can fund it, we can flood the game with 20% of the games players from there, where right now its 40% PI

If it wasn’t a crime ridden third world country that would need millions above the grant and with zero value and interest to tv then yeh maybe. But as is better to take 1/4 that $20mill it would cost to fund an nrl club and improve the development systems to get the best png players in the nrl into clubs that make the game money.

I’d be pumping it into the U16’s and U18’s systems, set up some nrl scouting camps and have a second qrl club for kids that don’t get picked up early but that can keep developing and keep in the shop window worth the hunters and another club.

 

[MugaB]

If it wasn’t a crime ridden third world country that would need millions above the grant and with zero value and interest to tv then yeh maybe. But as is better to take 1/4 that $20mill it would cost to fund an nrl club and improve the development systems to get the best png players in the nrl into clubs that make the game money.

I’d be pumping it into the U16’s and U18’s systems, set up some nrl scouting camps and have a second qrl club for kids that don’t get picked up early but that can keep developing and keep in the shop window worth the hunters and another club.

Base them in cairns, build an academy, providing visas for the top36, under the banner/promoting the northern pride...
It might not be called a "PNG" team, but it can channel an academy thru it, keep the hunters as the feeder team.. rival the cowboys... another qld team, far from seq, adding depth to player pool, these are all pluses to me, call it somthing else if you want

 

[Perth Red]

Base them in cairns, build an academy, providing visas for the top36, under the banner/promoting the northern pride...
It might not be called a "PNG" team, but it can channel an academy thru it, keep the hunters as the feeder team.. rival the cowboys... another qld team, far from seq, adding depth to player pool, these are all pluses to me, call it somthing else if you want

You’re still not addressing no value to tv, the reluctance of tv to send over crew for 12 games a year in png, the fact every png player will jump ship to one of the other nrl clubs at the earliest opportunity and how insulting it would be for png to have a team based in another country. And for all that you’d have to spend way above what you’re paying the other nrl clubs due to inability to generate revenue. It’s a pipedream.
Better to be realistic and invest in programs and pathways. You can start that next year. If in decades to come png changes then great, but it’s unlikely in our lifetimes,

 

[MugaB]

You’re still not addressing no value to tv, the reluctance of tv to send over crew for 12 games a year in png, the fact every png player will jump ship to one of the other nrl clubs at the earliest opportunity and how insulting it would be for png to have a team based in another country. And for all that you’d have to spend way above what you’re paying the other nrl clubs due to inability to generate revenue. It’s a pipedream.
Better to be realistic and invest in programs and pathways. You can start that next year. If in decades to come png changes then great, but it’s unlikely in our lifetimes,

Your not reading me correctly, based in Cairns!!!
Means played in Cairns... maybe a handfull of PNG trials, a few token games... all run out of cairns, basically a Cairns team, built with the intention of pillaging and developing PNG players and produce a production line from there... regardless of what its called northern sprirt, northern pride, northern vipers...

 

[The Great Dane]

As they say, why not both? It’s no coincidence half the nrl are kiwi/PI decent. And png isnt a little pool, it’s one of the largest pool of jnr rl p,layers in the world. You’d need to spend ten times in WA what you could spend in PNG to get talent. That’s not to say we shouldn’t be doing both. Like I said there’s $25mill missing in grassroots funding last year. Put that back into new player market growth in the isalnds, nz, Vic and WA and voila talent for 20 Clubs!

after years of trying we’ve finally just got a 5th development officer for WA. It’s pathetic!

It's not the NRL's job, it is however the NRL's job to govern and develop the sport in Australia, and the current state of the sport in most of the country is a total dereliction of that duty. You have to look after yourself before you can look after others.

Traditionally any of the NRL's or club's activity overseas, whether that be in NZ or the PI's, has come at the expense of work at home, and I doubt that will change going into the future either.

The myth that PNG is bursting at the rim with NRL ready talent is just that. The Hunters would have produced more than a single solid first grader in a decade if PNG was what you and many others make it out be. In other words, getting PNG to the point where it's regularly producing NRL standard talent has proved to be just as expensive as anywhere else, if not significantly more expense because it lacks basic infrastructure that is taken for granted here.

PNG is not significantly cheaper than local development anyway, as the Australian government is carrying a significant portion of that financial burden for the time being. Sooner or later those arrangements will end, then the full cost will be on the NRL, and unlike in local regions PNG will not produce a significant financial return on that investment for a very long time.

What should happen in PNG, and a lot of other places, is the NRL should support them to develop their own professional path ways locally, not be taking over and running them for them and effectively co-opting the whole nation into a glorified feeder system for the NRL. We don't want or need more nations that are totally dependant on the NRL for their existence like NZ.

 

[The Great Dane]

Your not reading me correctly, based in Cairns!!!
Means played in Cairns... maybe a handfull of PNG trials, a few token games... all run out of cairns, basically a Cairns team, built with the intention of pillaging and developing PNG players and produce a production line from there... regardless of what its called northern sprirt, northern pride, northern vipers...

Who's going to support that team, and when I say support I mean become a customer that regularly spends their hard earned on the club?

The majority of the people in Cairns aren't going to be interested in being the minor party in joint venture with PNG, and will just keep supporting their current teams, and the average punter in PNG can't afford it, so where does profit come from?

You'd be better off just creating a Cairns team, at least that would have a chance of being sustainable.

 

[Perth Red]

Your not reading me correctly, based in Cairns!!!
Means played in Cairns... maybe a handfull of PNG trials, a few token games... all run out of cairns, basically a Cairns team, built with the intention of pillaging and developing PNG players and produce a production line from there... regardless of what its called northern sprirt, northern pride, northern vipers...

So have a club in a tiny city with no stadium, little corporate base and that is already part of another clubs catchment? Yeh I can see that working. You might as well base them in Adelaide where those things actually exist.

 

[MugaB]

Who's going to support that team, and when I say support I mean become a customer that regularly spends their hard earned on the club?

The majority of the people in Cairns aren't going to be interested in being the minor party in joint venture with PNG, and will just keep supporting their current teams, and the average punter in PNG can't afford it, so where does profit come from?

You'd be better off just creating a Cairns team, at least that would have a chance of being sustainable.

Ok then do that... and use PNG players as the feeder club, but mandate it to include an academy set up to house and support and develop players from PNG, if they make the 17 they make the 17, if they dont, go to market...

 

[MugaB]

So have a club in a tiny city with no stadium, little corporate base and that is already part of another clubs catchment? Yeh I can see that working. You might as well base them in Adelaide where those things actually exist.

Ahhh the old chestnut... how come you didn't bring up the Perth based PNG acedemy?
Should have....

Cairns is an hour away from port moresby, by far the closest hub to png, and there is a rivalry with townsville already, as far as catchments its 2 hours away, might aswell send Adelaides best and brightest to Melbourne's catchment

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

This is their revenue for 2021. You can see the vast majority if it comes from Govt grant and NRl funding. One of the interesting things is they are paying over a 1/4 of their revenue on 'consultants fees'? I wonder what thats for?

View attachment 68510

PNG HUNTERS 2021 ANNUAL REPORT

The 2021 Annual Report for the Papua New Guinea Hunters Rugby Football Club Limited.

issuu.com

They're getting nearly $400k in grants from the QRL?

It would be nice if the QRL gave the Logan Scorpions a hand when they needed it in 1988. Charity ought to begin at home.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

If it wasn’t a crime ridden third world country that would need millions above the grant and with zero value and interest to tv then yeh maybe. But as is better to take 1/4 that $20mill it would cost to fund an nrl club and improve the development systems to get the best png players in the nrl into clubs that make the game money.

I’d be pumping it into the U16’s and U18’s systems, set up some nrl scouting camps and have a second qrl club for kids that don’t get picked up early but that can keep developing and keep in the shop window worth the hunters and another club.

The first aim should be to get junior pathways into the QRL system. Fielding junior teams in the Hastings Deering Colts, Mal Meninga Cup and Cyril Conell Cup will provide a better return for the game. Even if the players don't go on to become NRL stars, they could help strengthen the Queensland Cup and PNG national team.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

So have a club in a tiny city with no stadium, little corporate base and that is already part of another clubs catchment? Yeh I can see that working. You might as well base them in Adelaide where those things actually exist.

Is @MugaB still pushing for the crazy PNG Pride in Cairns proposal?

If he think it's such a great idea then why doesn't he go down to the Penrith Panthers District Rugby League and tell them to rebrand as PNG Panthers and split games between Penrith Football Stadium and Port Moresby's National Football Stadium?

 

[Perth Red]

Ok then do that... and use PNG players as the feeder club, but mandate it to include an academy set up to house and support and develop playerd from PNG, if they make the 17 they make the 17, if they dont, go to market...

Nrl isnt basing a team in a city of 150k people with no stadium that belongs to an existing team. That’s even more unlikely than a Port Moresby team!

Ahhh the old chestnut... how come you didn't bring up the Perth based PNG acedemy?
Should have....

Cairns is an hour away from port moresby, by far the closest hub to png, and there is a rivalry with townsville already, as far as catchments its 2 hours away, might aswell send Adelaides best and brightest to Melbourne's catchment

You conveniently ignored it’s a tiny city with no corporates, no stadium and is NQ cowboys Catchment

but yeh a PNG Pirates academy is a cracking idea Now you come to mention it!

 

[Perth Red]

They're getting nearly $400k in grants from the QRL?

It would be nice if the QRL gave the Logan Scorpions a hand when they needed it in 1988. Charity ought to begin at home.

It’s from the nrl administered through the qrl.