Positional Values

[emjaycee]

Following on from the thread about Grothe potentially re-signing and the talk about whether the purported $250k a year for 3 years is 'overs', I am interested in peoples views on what $$ each position can and should be worth.

Why is a winger worth less then a second rower, etc.?

IMHO each position is as important and should be filled by a specialist in that position. Playing someone out of position doesnt work because each position requires skills not required in other positions.

Interested in your thoughts people and please lets keep it about the position, not the person.

My thoughts are that all spots should be worth about the same - base from $70k - $180k with additional $$ based on experience and tenure or representative levels.

This would put an average squad of 25 players at worth about $4.02m if based on:
- 7 inexperienced players (less than 2 years first grade) @ $70k
- 5 experienced (> 7 years) and/or rep players @ $250k
- 5 average experience (> 3 yrs) players @$120k
- 6 above average (>5 yrs) experience players @$180k
- 2 marquee players @ $300k

Interested in thoughts and comments.

 

[Eelementary]

I see what you're saying.

Personally, I don't care about how much players get paid. A lot of people get upset when Player A gets $400k a season...I could not care less.

With Grothe, it's a case of this: when he's fit and when he's focused, he's a bona fide match-winner. He can make tremendous metres with the ball in hand, and can score plenty of tries. His runs from dummy-half are invaluable, and his kick returns are seocnd to none.

So to me, paying him plenty is not an issue.

Besides, the way we're going, most of our forwards don't deserve to be getting paid much anyway. They may make 40 tackles every match, but that's hopeless when you're letting in 30 points per game and can only score 10 in reply because your forwards lack conviction to put their bodies on the line and go forward.

 

[Eelementary]

And I agree with that. Anyone that says that you can't make a fair living off $70,000 pa is joking. OK, it may not be a life of sheer luxury. But an annual income of $70k is pretty reasonable. It definitely pays the bills.

 

[lucablight]

Their worth is determined by how much you need them.

 

[oldmancraigy]

Eela - the forwards aren't necesarily letting in all the tries...

Whose job is it to co-ordinate the defensive line? The Fullback - yeah, that's right!

To be honest, I'm sure Burty HAS to be good at this, so either some pinheads aren't listening, or something else is going on.

I saw Robinson in Rd 1 vs the Warriors make an horrendous read on the Steven Price try - he came up and in to a covered man leaving a huge gap for Price to stroll through.

BUT - I saw Joel Reddy more than compensate for that on the weekend with some less than ordinary wing play - not taking bombs, not hustling in defence, dropping too deep for the kicks etc.

ANYWAY - to bring this back on topic:

A winger is easily over-rated and under-rated. A good finisher (ala Hayne/Merritt/Grothe etc) make something out of nothing and get the ball down when they have no right to! But this CAN be over-rated because the number of opportunities to conjure something up is often limited...
A winger who can't tackle can be a real liability - but not so much as a centre who can't tackle or who can't read the defense - Centre is more important defensively.

Props and Halves are indispensible --> the props lay the platform for the halves to operate, no good having a great half if the forwards aren't going forward - no use having great props if the halfback keeps kicking poorly, dropping the ball or throwing hospital passes...

Back rowers can cover over a multitude of defensive errors with effort in defense, or make something happen with a half bust, or offload out wide. But without a centre to pass to, or at least one that trusts them, it's useless.

And the hooker is vital because they pass the ball more than anyone else in the game - if they don't get the pass nicely out in front of the half/5/8 then you'll lose whatever momentum you had going... Think back to the Great Britain hooker who used to play for newcastle (can't remember his name) - Joey got him sacked for that reason I believe!

 

[Belly in Brisvegas]

His runs from dummy-half are invaluable

Sometimes they are just downright laughable too 'mentary.

 

[Twizzle]

Their worth is determined by how much you need them.

or how much you are prepared to pay them

 

[Fathead]

Without going into each position.
Your most important players are in decending order

Halfback
Hooker
5/8
Front row
Inside centre

Backrow
outside centre
fullback

Winger

Therefore you should pay the halfback the most and decend from there.
BUT the captain should get a little more anyway.

IMHO if we had Robbie Farah at hooker and say someone like Thurston or a decent halfback then we would go a long way to fixing what ails us.
Therefore these are the two positions that we need to pore as much money as we can into.

Look how much influence someone like Farah or Buderus , Thurston, Prince etc etc has on the game. IMO we are paying too much for players in positions that dont influence a game.

Having regard to the above, we have to get piggy out of hooker ASAP.

 

[Prodigal Eel]

Dont look so much on the position, but what the player brings to that position and club...with grothe, when fit he is like a second rower playing on the wing....carts the ball out of is own half and has the speed and individual brilliance to finish off a play.

 

[Fathead]

Yes he does but lets be honest - you can put any mug with a bit of toe there...

Winger is NOT a specialist position.

 

[emjaycee]

Yes he does but lets be honest - you can put any mug with a bit of toe there...

Winger is NOT a specialist position.

That's just crap IMHO.

A good winger is a specialist in that position as they need to be able to:
- win the foot race
- catch a high ball under pressure and while moving at speed
- dive in the corner without going into touch
- take runs from dummy half deep in your own territory against big forwards and not lose ground
- catch a long floating pass while at speed
- turn and chase when by chip kick
- read the play well enough to know when to come in, stay out or go for an intercept

If Hayne and Reddy are being bagged for their efforts over the last 2 weeks cause they are really Fullbacks and Wing is not a specialist position, why did they perform so ordinarily? Surely they should have nailed it?

We cant have it both ways guys - cant say chuck anyone on the wing cause its a nuffy position and then bitch when the opposition scores down our flanks.

 

[HevyDevy]

Without going into each position.
Your most important players are in decending order

Halfback
Hooker
5/8
Front row
Inside centre

Backrow
outside centre
fullback

Winger

Therefore you should pay the halfback the most and decend from there.
BUT the captain should get a little more anyway.

IMHO if we had Robbie Farah at hooker and say someone like Thurston or a decent halfback then we would go a long way to fixing what ails us.
Therefore these are the two positions that we need to pore as much money as we can into.

Look how much influence someone like Farah or Buderus , Thurston, Prince etc etc has on the game. IMO we are paying too much for players in positions that dont influence a game.

Having regard to the above, we have to get piggy out of hooker ASAP.

Inside centre?

We haven't had inside centres in league for 20 years!!!!

 

[Eelementary]

Eela - the forwards aren't necesarily letting in all the tries...

Whose job is it to co-ordinate the defensive line? The Fullback - yeah, that's right!

To be honest, I'm sure Burty HAS to be good at this, so either some pinheads aren't listening, or something else is going on.

I saw Robinson in Rd 1 vs the Warriors make an horrendous read on the Steven Price try - he came up and in to a covered man leaving a huge gap for Price to stroll through.

BUT - I saw Joel Reddy more than compensate for that on the weekend with some less than ordinary wing play - not taking bombs, not hustling in defence, dropping too deep for the kicks etc.

ANYWAY - to bring this back on topic:

A winger is easily over-rated and under-rated. A good finisher (ala Hayne/Merritt/Grothe etc) make something out of nothing and get the ball down when they have no right to! But this CAN be over-rated because the number of opportunities to conjure something up is often limited...
A winger who can't tackle can be a real liability - but not so much as a centre who can't tackle or who can't read the defense - Centre is more important defensively.

Props and Halves are indispensible --> the props lay the platform for the halves to operate, no good having a great half if the forwards aren't going forward - no use having great props if the halfback keeps kicking poorly, dropping the ball or throwing hospital passes...

Back rowers can cover over a multitude of defensive errors with effort in defense, or make something happen with a half bust, or offload out wide. But without a centre to pass to, or at least one that trusts them, it's useless.

And the hooker is vital because they pass the ball more than anyone else in the game - if they don't get the pass nicely out in front of the half/5/8 then you'll lose whatever momentum you had going... Think back to the Great Britain hooker who used to play for newcastle (can't remember his name) - Joey got him sacked for that reason I believe!

True.

Maybe it's because I played prop, but it really sh*ts me watching good teams with good forward packs. Their pack hunts like a...Well, a pack. Their props use their second-rowers to put big hits on; their hookers co-ordinate and order their troops around efficiently. And you look at our pack - disjointed, soft and with no mongrel.

When I played, I was filthy when the opposition scored tries, because we forwards always took it to heart. We have big egos, perhaps, but we always felt that the forwards dominated the match and dictated terms, and not the backs or halves. But our pack is so...Useless.

 

[Eelementary]

Sometimes they are just downright laughable too 'mentary.

Definitely. But he's only human. Even Nathan Hindmarsh makes mistakes. ;-)

 

[Eelementary]

Without going into each position.
Your most important players are in decending order

Halfback
Hooker
5/8
Front row
Inside centre

Backrow
outside centre
fullback

Winger

Therefore you should pay the halfback the most and decend from there.
BUT the captain should get a little more anyway.

IMHO if we had Robbie Farah at hooker and say someone like Thurston or a decent halfback then we would go a long way to fixing what ails us.
Therefore these are the two positions that we need to pore as much money as we can into.

Look how much influence someone like Farah or Buderus , Thurston, Prince etc etc has on the game. IMO we are paying too much for players in positions that dont influence a game.

Having regard to the above, we have to get piggy out of hooker ASAP.

Would Lockyer, Buderus and Johns be as brilliant as they are if they had to work behind a forward pack of:

8. Jason King
10. Kane Cleal
11. Chris Armit
12. Chad Robinson
13. Todd Lowrie
?