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Possible future 14 team ESL..

Coastbloke

Bench
Messages
4,238
Being a Aussie, this thread will probaly get me into trouble as I don't quite know the tribalism of UK League, but as a discussion point what does anyone think of the below franchises...

Remember ladies and gentlemen..This is a forum and this is called discussion.. Keep it nice..well, as nice as can be...
lol.gif


1. Leeds
2. Bradford
3. St Helens
4. Wigan
5. Huddersfield
6. London
7. Celtic Crusaders
8. Edinburgh Eagles
9. Les Catalans
10. Toulouse
11. Cumbria
12. Dublin
13. Hull FC or KR
14. Salford

023.gif
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
There used to be quite a lot of threads like this on various forums, and it used to really wind me up because people would just put teams from nowhere in the league or suggest all these ridiculous mergers that were never in a million years going to be good for the game. To be honest, they gave a bit of a bad reputation to expansionists, although I guess that's not so much of a problem on this forum.

Your effort wasn't actually that bad then considering. A few issues with it though, firstly the teams in Dublin and Edinburgh at the moment are nothing more than park teams and are nowhere near Super League. Secondly I don't ever believe there will be a SL club based in Cumbria - the area is too sparsely populated with no logical base or stadium for a full time club, and I also doubt that the Cumbrians would support a merged team. Also, Warrington would definitely be in. They are one of the stronger clubs and as far as I know they have never been out of the top divison, so I doubt they would ever lose out on a license barring a disaster.

I'm also not keen on Toulouse being in the league, certainly not in the same time frame as Dublin and Edinburgh. You would have to think that, if those two clubs were ready, then there would be a whole bunch of French clubs at a further stage than them and that Toulouse and Catalans would join a full-time French league. We're talking 15-20 years away though at least.

What's more important than the likes of Dublin IMO is getting a better geographical spread in England. I would love to see Gateshead or a Midlands club make a serious bid for SL, although obviously there would need to be years of development work before this could happen.
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
Being a Aussie, this thread will probaly get me into trouble as I don't quite know the tribalism of UK League, but as a discussion point what does anyone think of the below franchises...

Remember ladies and gentlemen..This is a forum and this is called discussion.. Keep it nice..well, as nice as can be...
lol.gif


1. Leeds
2. Bradford
3. St Helens
4. Wigan
5. Huddersfield
6. London
7. Celtic Crusaders
8. Edinburgh Eagles
9. Les Catalans
10. Toulouse
11. Cumbria
12. Dublin
13. Hull FC or KR
14. Salford

023.gif


You were doing quite well until you made it a choice. :roll:. We also prefer to be called Hull or Rovers. I hate this recent FC and KR crap. No offence intended.
 
Messages
14,139
I'd be happy with

Leeds
Hull
Bradford
Wigan
Saints
Wire
Quins
Huddersfield
Salford (if they ever get their stadium)
Celtic
Catalans
Toulouse
the best of the rest (HKR, Cas, Wakey, Widnes, Fax) probably depending on stadia more than anything else.

Feck Leigh and Fev, they'll never get in. Cumbria seems a non-starter. Mergers seem a non-starter. If there were to be any new expansion clubs they'd have to have a good foundation. Maybe Skolars or Gateshead might get there one day with a bit of luck and a lot of work. As far as a Scottish or Irish side, I doubt they're anywhere near possible in the next 10 years. They need to get a pro club or two first and they need to be successful at that level for a few years, Celtic style. Then, maybe. Of course long-term anything is possible. Bring on Barcelona and Moscow!!! Hmmm we can dream.
 

milton

Juniors
Messages
246
eventually they should split a european superleague into divisions like NFL in the USA say 4 pools of 5 teams in each. Play teams in pool twice and others radomly. Put the teams in rivalries in the same pool.

Pool 1
Edinbrough
Dublin
Harliquins
Salford
Gateshed

Pool 2
Les Cats
Toulouse
Wigan
St Helans
Wakefield

Pool 3
Celtic Crusaders
Moscow
Leeds
Warrington
Bradford

etc...
 

dogz08

First Grade
Messages
6,209
I think Warrington should be in pool 2 and Wakefield in pool 3 mate, Moscow? doubt that could happen, as for my opinion...

Leeds
Bradford
Wigan
St Helens
Warrington
Celtic
Hull
Hull KR
Salford
Cas/Wakefield (either 1 or both merge)
Harliquins
Huddersfield
Scotland team
Catalans
 

Coastbloke

Bench
Messages
4,238
Good to see some constructive thought on the direction of the ESL...

I guess because it is called Super League (Europe), is the reason I have included expansionist teams such as Dublin.

I included Cumbria because the touring Kangaroos teams used to play a Cumbrian side in the past. I am not up on the actual state of the game there, but am happy to hear of everyone's thoughts..

I included Dublin and Edinburgh because I truly believe the ball should not be dropped after the RLWC exposure..The Scots and Irish did quite well and I attended the Scotland vs Fiji game. I know there was mostly NRL, ESL and NL1 players in the Scot team, but it was a wonderful showcase for the game for those Scots that watched it..

Ireland again played for a semi spot and did well and I just think those countries are ripe for the picking. I know soccer rules in Scotland and Gaelic footy rules in Ireland, but Yawnion is also big in those countries and yet there is a better version of the code in RL that just doesn't have that much needed exposure...

Touloulse must be there for a very simple reason..

With Australia, NZ and England the big 3 in the game , Rugby League needs 1 more powerhouse in both hemispheres to up the notch in terms of international credibility..It can be either PNG, Fiji, Tonga or Samoa in the SH, but France must be the NH candidate for that title..

France must be number 4 for RL to survive as a global sport. That is why Toulouse must be in the ESL..

To make the comp as viable as possible 14 teams seems to be the best bet and those teams I chose I think (maybe with the exception of Cumbria) represents the best chance for Rugby league in the Northern Hemisphere...
 

Sam_the_man

First Grade
Messages
5,095
On your Scotish and Irish sides. There is a proposal floating around at the moment for a Scotish or Irish side to join the NL2 league with an eye to eventually gaining entre into the ESL just as the Welsh side, the Celtic Crusaders have done. It's interesting to note the leaps and bounds league is making in the UK. Ten years ago there was no Scotish, Irish or Walsh domestic competitions. fast forward to the present day and you have around 15 to 18 clubs in Ireland and Scotland with talk of both supporting a semi pro club to entre into the NL2. Wales have for the first time in there history have a stable domestic comp made up of 6 domestic clubs with expansion on the minds of the WRL, and of far more importance they now have over 100 schools playing the WRL schools comp, this has gotten so big that they have had to split the country into 4 areas. And then you add the Celtic Crusaders into the mix and things are looking good. A very very good sign is that in the past the Walsh domestic sides have not entered into the Challenge cup because players have gone back to there union sides....this year two clubs turned this on it's head and will enter the Challenge cup at the expense of union commitments.
England is also looking good, they have experienced a boom in player numbers in the south of the country and in London. With London juniors now starting to come through into the London super league side. Over 80 new teams outside of the traditional heartland area of the north have starting playing the game over the last year also.
France have experienced a player number growth in both juniors and seniors with registered numbers at around the 24,000 mark....up from 15,000 ten years ago. While i agree that another French side is something thats needed we need to be mindful of the fact the French have a good pro/semi pro comp of there own and that needs to protected.
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
There used to be quite a lot of threads like this on various forums, and it used to really wind me up because people would just put teams from nowhere in the league or suggest all these ridiculous mergers that were never in a million years going to be good for the game. To be honest, they gave a bit of a bad reputation to expansionists, although I guess that's not so much of a problem on this forum.

Your effort wasn't actually that bad then considering. A few issues with it though, firstly the teams in Dublin and Edinburgh at the moment are nothing more than park teams and are nowhere near Super League.

Melbourne went from Park level football to NRL Premiers in two years. Adelaide were not much better placed than Scotland or Ireland and they formed a team that competed reasonably in the NRL and they averaged over 10,000 people. Perth were probably about on par with Wales and they also achieved similar results to Adelaide. It is not impossible for sides to be put into these teams and for them to be successful.

Still, I dont really agree with it. I would much prefer the Ireland and Scotland to concentrate on running their national teams as semi/professional teams. Without too much trouble, both of these sides could get 3 test series against each other, as well as sides like Wales, France, Russia, USA, South Africa, and/or some of the other European sides. In fact, with a little bit of creativity, they could turn these tests into a "League". Obviously most of the current semi pros couldnt play, but this league could be pushed and promoted enough in the home countries, without the big players. It would mean that the best summer conference players wouldnt defect to union. It would give the media a team to follow and would generate quite good publicity if it was run properly. It also gives the country the chance to try to promote the game and run a promotable team without being crippled by having to pay enormous wages that are required to run ESL teams. (And to a lesser extent NL1 & 2 teams).

Secondly I don't ever believe there will be a SL club based in Cumbria - the area is too sparsely populated with no logical base or stadium for a full time club, and I also doubt that the Cumbrians would support a merged team. Also, Warrington would definitely be in. They are one of the stronger clubs and as far as I know they have never been out of the top divison, so I doubt they would ever lose out on a license barring a disaster.

Cumbria is an interesting area. I think that their clubs will become entrenched in NL1 and i agree with you that they are unlikely to go up to esl now that franchises are in. But, I would have thought that once the clubs accept their position in NL1, due to a lack of finances, it is quite possible that a Gold Coast style push for inclusion for a new team which is not a joint venture, but is totally separate from the local clubs, could easily happen. What is the population figures from this area?

I'm also not keen on Toulouse being in the league, certainly not in the same time frame as Dublin and Edinburgh. You would have to think that, if those two clubs were ready, then there would be a whole bunch of French clubs at a further stage than them and that Toulouse and Catalans would join a full-time French league. We're talking 15-20 years away though at least.

Why would France want to run a full time french league, when they can join a European league? That is like suggesting that all the Northern Clubs drop out of Superleague to form their own NL. The aim for france will be to build their French League up to a level footing with NL1. It isnt as far away from it as people seem to think, although i guess we will see this year with the performance of Toulouse.

What's more important than the likes of Dublin IMO is getting a better geographical spread in England. I would love to see Gateshead or a Midlands club make a serious bid for SL, although obviously there would need to be years of development work before this could happen.

It is quite strange really, that franchises were bought in to give stability, but really their biggest job will be to sort out the clubs that dont make it, and get rid of them. Gateshead and midlands clubs will eventually mount challenges and for at least the first or second lot of franchises, if they come in, it will only be at the expense of non performing superleague clubs. Once clubs drop out this time, it is unlikely that they will find a way back. I think though that the future push for inclusion from within England will come more from New Entitys than from exisiting clubs. In 20 to 30 years time, i wouldnt be surpised to see totally new clubs with names like Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Cumbria, Midlands etc. Some of these may come from exisiting teams like Salford or Gateshead, but it wouldnt surprise in the slightest if new entities formed and the traditional clubs became grassroots and happy chasing the NL1 title which would become similar to the Queensland cup.
 

griff

Bench
Messages
3,322
It is quite strange really, that franchises were bought in to give stability, but really their biggest job will be to sort out the clubs that dont make it, and get rid of them. Gateshead and midlands clubs will eventually mount challenges and for at least the first or second lot of franchises, if they come in, it will only be at the expense of non performing superleague clubs. Once clubs drop out this time, it is unlikely that they will find a way back. I think though that the future push for inclusion from within England will come more from New Entitys than from exisiting clubs. In 20 to 30 years time, i wouldnt be surpised to see totally new clubs with names like Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Cumbria, Midlands etc. Some of these may come from exisiting teams like Salford or Gateshead, but it wouldnt surprise in the slightest if new entities formed and the traditional clubs became grassroots and happy chasing the NL1 title which would become similar to the Queensland cup.

I think that would be a disaster. RL really needs to embrace its history and its traditions. Making up new clubs with mergers or whatever would be counter productive.

It's as if RL is kind of ashamed of its Northern roots, and has to hide behind this "European" Super League hyperbole. The best sports marketers say you need to under promise and over deliver. Since 1995, RL has been doing the exact opposite.

A few years ago someone mentioned that Irish Riverdance style step dancing became a global phenomenon. It didn't do this by pretending to be whizz bang and modern and European. It did it by appealing to people's love of authentic Irish traditions. There's no reason RL can't succeed by marketing the tough working man in a depressed Northern mill town image. People love that, as seen through things like the Full Monty, Billy Elliot sort of genre.

On expansion, I think Toulouse was always a more compelling expansion club than Catalans. I also think the Crusaders wasn't really that great a choice because at the end of the day Bridgend is a pretty small town and it doesn't grow your market that much. A team in Cardiff, Swansea or Newport may have been better.

Expansion of the Super League I think could come from rugby union clubs in dual code sort of arrangements like that Leeds pioneered. Leicester are the most obvious target. Longer term, potentially a club like Benetton Treviso would also be great, making the "European" Super League more reality.
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
I think that would be a disaster. RL really needs to embrace its history and its traditions. Making up new clubs with mergers or whatever would be counter productive.

It's as if RL is kind of ashamed of its Northern roots, and has to hide behind this "European" Super League hyperbole. The best sports marketers say you need to under promise and over deliver. Since 1995, RL has been doing the exact opposite.

A few years ago someone mentioned that Irish Riverdance style step dancing became a global phenomenon. It didn't do this by pretending to be whizz bang and modern and European. It did it by appealing to people's love of authentic Irish traditions. There's no reason RL can't succeed by marketing the tough working man in a depressed Northern mill town image. People love that, as seen through things like the Full Monty, Billy Elliot sort of genre.

On expansion, I think Toulouse was always a more compelling expansion club than Catalans. I also think the Crusaders wasn't really that great a choice because at the end of the day Bridgend is a pretty small town and it doesn't grow your market that much. A team in Cardiff, Swansea or Newport may have been better.

Expansion of the Super League I think could come from rugby union clubs in dual code sort of arrangements like that Leeds pioneered. Leicester are the most obvious target. Longer term, potentially a club like Benetton Treviso would also be great, making the "European" Super League more reality.


I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater but your idea of marketing the "northern" stereotype is a terrible idea. It didn't matter where the Full Monty or Billy Elliott were set they were about the underdog succeeding against the odds and could have been set anywhere in the world. If the screenplay and the acting's good then the film will succeed. Maybe Riverdance was just entertaining. The origin didn't matter. Besides there are millions of Irish heritage people around the world for it to appeal to as well as the general public. Do you want the players to appear on national TV with their ey oop talk and stroking a whippet whilst eating tripe? Small northern towns hold no appeal to the vast majority of this country and if we were to focus on promoting that image we'd probably lose more support, physical and financial, then we currently have. Project yourself to a minority and a minority audience is what you'll get. I'm far from ashamed of being "northern" (are we a different race or species?) but RL has a bigger spread of viewing audience than we are lead to believe but it could be a lot bigger.
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
A few years ago someone mentioned that Irish Riverdance style step dancing became a global phenomenon. It didn't do this by pretending to be whizz bang and modern and European. It did it by appealing to people's love of authentic Irish traditions. There's no reason RL can't succeed by marketing the tough working man in a depressed Northern mill town image. People love that, as seen through things like the Full Monty, Billy Elliot sort of genre.
That's a horrible idea. RL is supposed to be inclusive and appeal to all audiences. We would be the laughing stock of the country.
 

marv

Juniors
Messages
1,053
Cumbria is an interesting area. I think that their clubs will become entrenched in NL1 and i agree with you that they are unlikely to go up to esl now that franchises are in. But, I would have thought that once the clubs accept their position in NL1, due to a lack of finances, it is quite possible that a Gold Coast style push for inclusion for a new team which is not a joint venture, but is totally separate from the local clubs, could easily happen. What is the population figures from this area?.

I think almost every avenue has been considered and covered regarding Cumbria, the problem being is Whitehaven and Workington in the west would be too far for Barrow fans in the south to want to travel to games and vice versa. There has been talk about having the "Cumbiran Franchise" play out of both areas of the county, but for that you would need two good quality stadia, and at current Cumbria doesnt have one good stadium exept for Carlisle F.C's ground. Carlisle, however is in the north of Cumbria on the Scottish borders almost and has already had a few failed RL teams in the past.

The population of the Barrow Area is about 70k, Carlisle about a 100k, Workington and Whithaven probably about 50k each.

The main problem lies with the distance between Barrow in the south and Whithaven and Workington in the north west, its not a huge distance but the road links are poor, for the simple reason that Cumbria has within it the Lake district, which predictably is Lakes and mountains, making traveling anywhere in the county rather difficult. (unless you drive 35 miles south of Barrow to acces the motorway to the north) Basically its quicker for me to go to Wigan tha it is to go to Whitehaven.

For me Barrow represents the best chance Cumbria have (I would say that being from Barrow) but would the name Barrow fit in with what SL wants to accheive, I dont think so myself.

And all these points come before the fact that Whithaven and Workington arent best mates and Barrovians think anyone north of Millom is a yokel bumpkin!!
 

griff

Bench
Messages
3,322
I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater but your idea of marketing the "northern" stereotype is a terrible idea. It didn't matter where the Full Monty or Billy Elliott were set they were about the underdog succeeding against the odds and could have been set anywhere in the world. If the screenplay and the acting's good then the film will succeed. Maybe Riverdance was just entertaining. The origin didn't matter. Besides there are millions of Irish heritage people around the world for it to appeal to as well as the general public. Do you want the players to appear on national TV with their ey oop talk and stroking a whippet whilst eating tripe? Small northern towns hold no appeal to the vast majority of this country and if we were to focus on promoting that image we'd probably lose more support, physical and financial, then we currently have. Project yourself to a minority and a minority audience is what you'll get. I'm far from ashamed of being "northern" (are we a different race or species?) but RL has a bigger spread of viewing audience than we are lead to believe but it could be a lot bigger.

Of course I'm not saying use negative Northern stereotypes, or only market yourself to a Northern audience. I'm saying the game shouldn't deny its roots or be ashamed of them.

Maybe Riverdance succeeded because it was entertaining, maybe Billy Elliot and the Full Monty succeeded because they were good movies. Well I think Rugby League is a good sport (the greatest game of all actually). But that isn't alone enough for it to succeed against the forces of darkness.

As I mentioned the worst thing you can do in sports marketing is over promise and under deliver. Marketing something as the European Super League when 11 of the 14 clubs are within a 50 mile radius, and many are in relatively small towns is over promising. That is the sort of thing that makes the game a laughing stock.

What you need to do is be true and be authentic. This doesn't mean don't appeal to people outside the North at all. But Northern values and identity can appeal to people. After all Parky got a 50 year career and a knighthood by being a professional Yorkshireman.

I don't think much needs changing. It is mostly about acknowledging traditions. Tradition is probably the most valuable thing in sports marketing, as it is the one thing that can't be bought.

For example, I would have teams go back to using their traditional crests, as Wigan and Halifax have done. I'd encourage the use of traditional home jersey designs. I'd replace the Super League trophy with the old Championship one. I'd reintroduce the Yorkshire and Lancashire Cups as pre-season events. I'd also market the game using an advertising approach similar to the Sky sports promo with the steel mill motif, with old footage of packed crowds mixed in and a few choice snippets of Eddie Waring. Most of all I'd purge all reference to a "European" Super League.

None of that would do anything to make the game a laughing stock. Certainly nothing like the "European" Super League pretence. And nary a whippet in sight.
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
For example, I would have teams go back to using their traditional crests, as Wigan and Halifax have done. I'd encourage the use of traditional home jersey designs. I'd replace the Super League trophy with the old Championship one. I'd reintroduce the Yorkshire and Lancashire Cups as pre-season events. I'd also market the game using an advertising approach similar to the Sky sports promo with the steel mill motif, with old footage of packed crowds mixed in and a few choice snippets of Eddie Waring. Most of all I'd purge all reference to a "European" Super League.

None of that would do anything to make the game a laughing stock. Certainly nothing like the "European" Super League pretence. And nary a whippet in sight.


The whippet is waiting in the wings after the picture you've just painted. Cue Eddie and Stevo wearing mufflers and oversized flat caps.
 

Evil Homer

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
7,178
I have no problem with traditional crests and team names, and I also think that the 'European' Super League is a bit ridiculous. However, nobody in the UK refers to the 'European' Super League or ESL at all. I'm not sure it's even official anymore and I haven't ever heard the term outside of posting on League Unlimited. There's certainly no marketing of a 'European' league at all, that would obviously be a completely stupid thing to do.

All the other ideas would just be counter-productive IMO, sorry. What good at all would changing the trophy or the Sky Sports intro sequence do? It's not as if there is some sort of problem with British RL and a massive revamp is needed. Crowds, TV ratings and the sport's image continue to grow year on year. The best thing possible is to break away from the 'small Northern towns' stereotype, I think moving back towards it would just be completely ludicrous. It's not even accurate at all now anyway, there's only Castleford that could be even remotely considered a 'Northern mill town' and the rest of the clubs are either in the lower divisions or have gone bust.
 

griff

Bench
Messages
3,322
Hmm, nothing worse than a self-hating Northerner eh deluded pom? There's nowt wrong with being from the North.

Those changes like changing the trophy and using traditional crests are all small cost free changes aimed at making tradition and history more visible. There are no whippets or flat caps depicted on the Championship trophy to my knowledge.

Things like reintroducing the Yorkshire and Lancashire Cups as preseason cups just mean that instead of playing meaningless friendlies in the preseason, they will get more people through the gate because there is something that has meaning on offer. Teams play their local rivals anyway.

Breaking away from the Northern image is not something that is really possible to do. You can't change people's attitudes without tens of millions of dollars in communication budgets, and even then it probably won't work. What you have to do instead is build on and exploit existing positive attitudes and associations.

Even then, the North is hardly a fully saturated market for RL. The North has millions of people in some of the most densely populated areas in Europe that could be persuaded to go to Rugby League matches that don't currently.
 

marv

Juniors
Messages
1,053
Those changes like changing the trophy and using traditional crests are all small cost free changes aimed at making tradition and history more visible. There are no whippets or flat caps depicted on the Championship trophy to my knowledge.

I quite like the SL trophy, I know a lot of folk dont though.

Things like reintroducing the Yorkshire and Lancashire Cups as preseason cups just mean that instead of playing meaningless friendlies in the preseason, they will get more people through the gate because there is something that has meaning on offer. Teams play their local rivals anyway.

I think 99% of people think we are playing too many games in the UK griff, I dont hink the yorks/lancs cups are the way forward, for example what would you do about Catalans, Quins, Celtic, Toulouse and the Cumbrian clubs?

Breaking away from the Northern image is not something that is really possible to do. You can't change people's attitudes without tens of millions of dollars in communication budgets, and even then it probably won't work. What you have to do instead is build on and exploit existing positive attitudes and associations.

I agree with what your saying, it wont really change without money we havent got and I agree we certainly shouldnt be ashamed of our working class heritage.

Even then, the North is hardly a fully saturated market for RL. The North has millions of people in some of the most densely populated areas in Europe that could be persuaded to go to Rugby League matches that don't currently.

But the problem is, is that Liverpool FC and Manchester United are ultimatley more appealing to people in the north, heck even Leeds united and Bradford city pull more than Leeds RL and the bulls respectivley the soccer clubs are in the third division (i think) thats without mentioning clubs in the north like Bolton, Wigan and Hull who are all in the Premier league.

on a smaller scale in my home town of Barrow the soccer club was promoted and recently played a FA cup tie against a mediocre premier league side and the local rag devoted almost a whole paper to the two acceivments, the RL side got a 4 page pull out on their recent promotion.
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
Hmm, nothing worse than a self-hating Northerner eh deluded pom? There's nowt wrong with being from the North.


Tell me where I said I was self hating and ashamed of being from the north?

Things like reintroducing the Yorkshire and Lancashire Cups as preseason cups just mean that instead of playing meaningless friendlies in the preseason, they will get more people through the gate because there is something that has meaning on offer. Teams play their local rivals anyway.


How many people do you think will turn out for YC and LC matches? FFS the crowds for the CC are declining as it is.

.

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