R23 Titans

[Old Timer]

In my opinion, yes.

I’d happily consider a reasonable argument in favor of moving Lomax to lock. I’m yet to see one made. He doesn’t have the attributes needed to play lock, and rather than the several years that it would require to develop those attributes, (if it was indeed possible) I’d like to see him coached to be an NRL quality centre - a position that his natural abilities predispose him to.

Lomax has great strength, excellent front on tackling skills, willingness to get involved in the tough stuff, good post contact metres, footwork, a big motor, a bit of mongrel, can man handle opponents, good aerial skills, good speed which are great traits for a lock but in all honesty probably has a lack of speed to be a great centre.

I believe he could easily make the transition and would probably enjoy that level of physicality & involvement rather than being constantly hampered by a lack of room when in the centres.

The lack of room is a direct result of our halves and hooker issues but that isn’t going away anytime soon so Lomax is and will continue to be greatly under utilised.

The other Feagai could easily fulfil that role in the centres and Lomax IMO could be as good as or even better than the best De Belin has to offer.

 

[SBD82]

Lomax has great strength,

He does. But his centre of gravity is high and unsuited to the middle.

excellent front on tackling skills,

Yes and no. The kind of front on tackling skills required in the middle are different to what’s required in the 2 defender position. He doesn’t hit and stick particularly well, and he doesn’t have the classic technique that’s useful as a lock to cover the inside runner.

willingness to get involved in the tough stuff,

Agreed. But that’s based on a lower involvement in defence. Much harder to maintain doing grunt work.

good post contact metres,

These are usually made in one on one situations before the second tackler arrives, that time will be limited in the middle.

footwork, a big motor,

Agreed. But his style of footwork would be better utilised in the centres.

a bit of mongrel,

Agreed, but again, hard to maintain when you’re doing grunt work.

can man handle opponents,

He can man handle outside backs because he has a great ability to get under a players ribs and take their balance when they try to put footwork on him. Again, different story in the middle.

good aerial skills, good speed which are great traits

They are, but better suited to the centres.

has a lack of speed to be a great centre.

I don’t know that he does. He doesn’t have elite speed but I’ve never thought he was particularly slow. If anything this might be the difference between him being a good centre and a great centre, but I disagree that it’s a reason to move him into the forwards.

I truly think the issue with Lomax is our game plan. He is a centre who needs early ball and can beat an isolated defender, particularly when you can get a defence sliding. But our lack of attacking structure means that he rarely has the opportunity to do so. I think a good coach (or even a decent one) could easily turn Lomax into a top tier centre.

 

[thebigredv]

Lomax has great strength, excellent front on tackling skills, willingness to get involved in the tough stuff, good post contact metres, footwork, a big motor, a bit of mongrel, can man handle opponents, good aerial skills, good speed which are great traits for a lock but in all honesty probably has a lack of speed to be a great centre.

I believe he could easily make the transition and would probably enjoy that level of physicality & involvement rather than being constantly hampered by a lack of room when in the centres.

The lack of room is a direct result of our halves and hooker issues but that isn’t going away anytime soon so Lomax is and will continue to be greatly under utilised.

The other Feagai could easily fulfil that role in the centres and Lomax IMO could be as good as or even better than the best De Belin has to offer.

This makes a lot of sense to me.
He is potentially our second best player but is underutilised and constantly cramped.

We need to get those young blokes into the halves and backline, Hunt in a fluid hooker/halves role and reinvent our forward pack. Lomax at second row or lock would be a big step in the right direction.

 

[jeffdragon]

Lomax needs space.
Doesn't help him or us crabbing sideways instead of forward.

 

[Old Timer]

He does. But his centre of gravity is high and unsuited to the middle.

Yes and no. The kind of front on tackling skills required in the middle are different to what’s required in the 2 defender position. He doesn’t hit and stick particularly well, and he doesn’t have the classic technique that’s useful as a lock to cover the inside runner.

Agreed. But that’s based on a lower involvement in defence. Much harder to maintain doing grunt work.

These are usually made in one on one situations before the second tackler arrives, that time will be limited in the middle.

Agreed. But his style of footwork would be better utilised in the centres.

Agreed, but again, hard to maintain when you’re doing grunt work.

He can man handle outside backs because he has a great ability to get under a players ribs and take their balance when they try to put footwork on him. Again, different story in the middle.

They are, but better suited to the centres.

I don’t know that he does. He doesn’t have elite speed but I’ve never thought he was particularly slow. If anything this might be the difference between him being a good centre and a great centre, but I disagree that it’s a reason to move him into the forwards.

I truly think the issue with Lomax is our game plan. He is a centre who needs early ball and can beat an isolated defender, particularly when you can get a defence sliding. But our lack of attacking structure means that he rarely has the opportunity to do so. I think a good coach (or even a decent one) could easily turn Lomax into a top tier centre.

Many good back rowers started in the backs and transitioned

Lomax has more than enough natural ability to make that move

The issue re maintains energy levels and output while being a middle is a creditable one but IMO not a concern for Zac as his fitness levels, strength and motor are highly evident and in recent weeks he is doing more miles and turning up on the other side of the field in an attempt to get more involvement.

I agree our current game plan does limit him but it is obvious that is not going to change any time soon.

So these discussions are based on what would best suit our team at this time under current circumstances and is somewhat like the question re Hunt namely he is a good half and hooker but under current circumstances him being hooker would be better for the team.

If we had a good hooker then a no brainer Hunt stays n the halves.

Most of forwards are despicable, leak like a sieve, slow to respond, small motors and incapable of making a break or producing an offload so with no one on the horizon MO we need to think outside the square.

 

[2218]

Lomax needs space.
Doesn't help him or us crabbing sideways instead of forward.

and i reckon suli was seeing a lot more early ball

 

[SBD82]

Many good back rowers started in the backs and transitioned

Lomax has more than enough natural ability to make that move

The issue re maintains energy levels and output while being a middle is a creditable one but IMO not a concern for Zac as his fitness levels, strength and motor are highly evident and in recent weeks he is doing more miles and turning up on the other side of the field in an attempt to get more involvement.

I agree our current game plan does limit him but it is obvious that is not going to change any time soon.

So these discussions are based on what would best suit our team at this time under current circumstances and is somewhat like the question re Hunt namely he is a good half and hooker but under current circumstances him being hooker would be better for the team.

If we had a good hooker then a no brainer Hunt stays n the halves.

Most of forwards are despicable, leak like a sieve, slow to respond, small motors and incapable of making a break or producing an offload so with no one on the horizon MO we need to think outside the square.

Yes some players have made the transition, but it’s generally to edge forward. Lock is a very different position. Lomax moving to edge forward is a very different conversation, and while I don’t think it’s preferable, it’s a move that I wouldn’t find as absurd as a move to lock.

You’ve addressed one point. But how do you address his tackling technique and high centre of gravity?

Thinking outside of the box is fine, and talking about what is best for the team is honorable.

But the reality is that he isn’t succeeding in his current position - the one that he is best suited to - either because our coaching is f**ked or because he is unable to learn. How would moving him change either of those variables?

 

[Old Timer]

Yes some players have made the transition, but it’s generally to edge forward. Lock is a very different position. Lomax moving to edge forward is a very different conversation, and while I don’t think it’s preferable, it’s a move that I wouldn’t find as absurd as a move to lock.

You’ve addressed one point. But how do you address his tackling technique and high centre of gravity?

Thinking outside of the box is fine, and talking about what is best for the team is honorable.

But the reality is that he isn’t succeeding in his current position - the one that he is best suited to - either because our coaching is f**ked or because he is unable to learn. How would moving him change either of those variables?

JDB 1.88
ZL 1.9
TS 1.93

Not sure where there is any significant difference in cog?

I don’t agree with your point re his tackling technique as at different times he has ended up in the middle and made several tackles in a row to good effect

He has had 3+ years in the centres and from all the hype of SOO certainty to the gifted one he has actually slipped down the pecking order so rather than magnifying his lack of development and potentially throwing him on the scrap heap as we did with Aitken let’s understand what real options there are.

 

[SBD82]

JDB 1.88
ZL 1.9
TS 1.93

Not sure where there is any significant difference in cog?

I don’t agree with your point re his tackling technique as at different times he has ended up in the middle and made several tackles in a row to good effect

He has had 3+ years in the centres and from all the hype of SOO certainty to the gifted one he has actually slipped down the pecking order so rather than magnifying his lack of development and potentially throwing him on the scrap heap as we did with Aitken let’s understand what real options there are.

I’m not talking about height, I’m talking about centre of gravity. Watch the way he moves when compared to someone like JDB, Murray or Radley.

And again, the tackling techniques required in the forwards to consistently dominate the ruck is different to the tackling technique required on the edge. He wouldn’t be able to make that transition without intensive time and coaching. How would moving him to the middle address the issues that are currently holding back in his development?

 

[Smacka]

He does. But his centre of gravity is high and unsuited to the middle.

Yes and no. The kind of front on tackling skills required in the middle are different to what’s required in the 2 defender position. He doesn’t hit and stick particularly well, and he doesn’t have the classic technique that’s useful as a lock to cover the inside runner.

Agreed. But that’s based on a lower involvement in defence. Much harder to maintain doing grunt work.

These are usually made in one on one situations before the second tackler arrives, that time will be limited in the middle.

Agreed. But his style of footwork would be better utilised in the centres.

Agreed, but again, hard to maintain when you’re doing grunt work.

He can man handle outside backs because he has a great ability to get under a players ribs and take their balance when they try to put footwork on him. Again, different story in the middle.

They are, but better suited to the centres.

I don’t know that he does. He doesn’t have elite speed but I’ve never thought he was particularly slow. If anything this might be the difference between him being a good centre and a great centre, but I disagree that it’s a reason to move him into the forwards.

I truly think the issue with Lomax is our game plan. He is a centre who needs early ball and can beat an isolated defender, particularly when you can get a defence sliding. But our lack of attacking structure means that he rarely has the opportunity to do so. I think a good coach (or even a decent one) could easily turn Lomax into a top tier centre.

Spoke with a Rocket Scientist - he reckons Lomax could play lock !

 

[Old Timer]

I’m not talking about height, I’m talking about centre of gravity. Watch the way he moves when compared to someone like JDB, Murray or Radley.

And again, the tackling techniques required in the forwards to consistently dominate the ruck is different to the tackling technique required on the edge. He wouldn’t be able to make that transition without intensive time and coaching. How would moving him to the middle address the issues that are currently holding back in his development?

I think your cog argument is not that relevant as there are a vast array of different body shapes playing lock and doing so successfully. If cog is that important then conditioning and gym work can help in him attaining that.

No doubt intensive coaching and different conditioning would be required but who in our ranks doesn’t need that and by all means tell me who other than JDB is even a reasonable prospect at lock in our playing group?

The issues holding him back as a centre are not going to go away if we maintain Hunt at 7 and as he is likely to be extended Lomax will just have more of the same coming his way.

I dare say he is probably not enjoying his footy as much as he should and this leads to errors and brain explosions and when that happens the chant in this place becomes one of drop him.

Centres are somewhat benign in the NRL these days as is evidenced when we pick fb’s and 5/8ths at SOO level so I for one would not like to see Zac end up in a dead end position in our club.

 

[SBD82]

I think your cog argument is not that relevant as there are a vast array of different body shapes playing lock and doing so successfully. If cog is that important then conditioning and gym work can help in him attaining that.

No doubt intensive coaching and different conditioning would be required but who in our ranks doesn’t need that and by all means tell me who other than JDB is even a reasonable prospect at lock in our playing group?

The issues holding him back as a centre are not going to go away if we maintain Hunt at 7 and as he is likely to be extended Lomax will just have more of the same coming his way.

I dare say he is probably not enjoying his footy as much as he should and this leads to errors and brain explosions and when that happens the chant in this place becomes one of drop him.

Centres are somewhat benign in the NRL these days as is evidenced when we pick fb’s and 5/8ths at SOO level so I for one would not like to see Zac end up in a dead end position in our club.

Balance and centre of gravity isn’t something you just change in the gym. It requires changing the way that your body moves. It’s possible but a long and entirely impractical exercise.

JDB and Bird are the two players that we have who are capable of playing lock. Or we could get creative and use the QLD system of playing a 14 as a triangle player when not relieving at DH (but if you ask me who that might be I’d be stumped - maybe Bud if we persist with Hunt at 7).

For the record, I’m not someone who is advocating dropping Lomax. No one is going to be an elite centre in our club with the way that we are currently structured. He is doing as good of a job as anyone would.

And centres don’t have to be benign. Look at the impact that Val Holmes is having for Nth QLD. That’s some damn fine coaching from Payten; building the game around the strengths of his players. I’d have happily seen Lomax trialed at fullback for longer than he was, but that ship has sailed now.

 

[Old Timer]

Balance and centre of gravity isn’t something you just change in the gym. It requires changing the way that your body moves. It’s possible but a long and entirely impractical exercise.

JDB and Bird are the two players that we have who are capable of playing lock. Or we could get creative and use the QLD system of playing a 14 as a triangle player when not relieving at DH (but if you ask me who that might be I’d be stumped - maybe Bud if we persist with Hunt at 7).

For the record, I’m not someone who is advocating dropping Lomax. No one is going to be an elite centre in our club with the way that we are currently structured. He is doing as good of a job as anyone would.

And centres don’t have to be benign. Look at the impact that Val Holmes is having for Nth QLD. That’s some damn fine coaching from Payten; building the game around the strengths of his players. I’d have happily seen Lomax trialed at fullback for longer than he was, but that shop has sailed now.

I have to say I have enjoyed our exchange of views

I do concur if he filled his potential at centre there would be no need for me to look further afield for him.

Alas under current arrangements you may never see him become a great centre nor will I see him become a great lock.

Just to finish up on a couple of things

Re cog where do you see Isaiah Yeo fit in?

Re centres interesting to see Manu at the Roosters is pretty benign in the centres compared to his performances at FB & 5/8
No doubt his best at centre is still terrific but he is much more imposing with plenty of ball in his hands in the other positions.

I know much depends on the style of footy the coach wants to play but some players are just elite and I would love Zac to be even 80% of Manu and maybe that happens if he goes there.

 

[SBD82]

I have to say I have enjoyed our exchange of views

Me too mate.

Re cog where do you see Isaiah Yeo fit in?

I think Yeo has a great centre of gravity and balance for his position. He leans into the line when he accelerates, and defensively his technique is great in all aspects.

Re centres interesting to see Manu at the Roosters is pretty benign in the centres compared to his performances at FB & 5/8
No doubt his best at centre is still terrific but he is much more imposing with plenty of ball in his hands in the other positions.

I know much depends on the style of footy the coach wants to play but some players are just elite and I would love Zac to be even 80% of Manu and maybe that happens if he goes there.

Manu is a bit of an anomaly. I get the sense that he is capable of playing at 6 or 1 at an elite level. But he doesn’t seem particularly driven to do so. He may just be one of those blokes who is happy with the reduced responsibility and pay packet, but happy to step up and fill a gap when required. Blokes like that are great to have in an organisation, and from the outside it seems that Robbo manages it well.

In saying that, I wouldn’t underestimate his impact in the centres. He’s defensively great, and he’s an ever present threat to come up with a quality run or pass. While that doesn’t always mean that he will make the big play, it puts doubt in the defenders’ minds and gives blokes like Teddy, Walker and Keary more time.

If I was defending at wing or centre against him I think the decision making would be very difficult. The winger can’t jam because of how good his hands are, but the centre has to commit because of how strong his running game is.

 

[denis preston]

Agree Dave, but I would still trial Sloan at centre and or wing, what have we got to lose, we would never know unless we trial these guys. I dont think Sloan will ever displace Ramsay and nor he shouldnt, but surely we dont want to be talking about where we might put him in future if we dont trial him in different positions, win or lose who cares at least we will know something/anything.

You know that Sloan will put on baulk & muscle and probably more speed as well when his body matures ? That is when we judge him fairly.

 

[Dragon David]

You know that Sloan will put on baulk & muscle and probably more speed as well when his body matures ? That is when we judge him fairly.

Some mate has told me that this is what Sloan aims to do in the off season as well as learn much more about himself and fix his shortcomings particularly with his defence which will improve once he becomes stronger and bulkier.

 

[Draginzaaar]

Yes some players have made the transition, but it’s generally to edge forward. Lock is a very different position. Lomax moving to edge forward is a very different conversation, and while I don’t think it’s preferable, it’s a move that I wouldn’t find as absurd as a move to lock.

You’ve addressed one point. But how do you address his tackling technique and high centre of gravity?

Thinking outside of the box is fine, and talking about what is best for the team is honorable.

But the reality is that he isn’t succeeding in his current position - the one that he is best suited to - either because our coaching is f**ked or because he is unable to learn. How would moving him change either of those variables?

Yeo is a similar size and he was a centre.

 

[SBD82]

Yeo is a similar size and he was a centre.

I’m not referring to size.

 

[The Villain]

Just searched ideal centre of gravity for a 13. The answer may surprise some.

 

[dannyt]

Just searched ideal centre of gravity for a 13. The answer may surprise some.

Not surprising anyone at the moment