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Rams and Reds

Matty b

Juniors
Messages
1
This may be a little out of left field but i was wandering if anyone had any insight into teams from Adelaide and Perth being started again? Whats the NRL thinking about this? Nothing? :? i guess we're still getting over the SL war and the Central Coast would probably be first in line but I'd love to see them back. The Rams average home crowd was over 11,000 and the Reds over 10,000. I thought they were great for the game. What do u guys think?
 

Noel

Juniors
Messages
92
They should be back in a 20-team competition with each team playing each other once a year.
 

Razor

Coach
Messages
10,077
A Perth team should be brought in first. Can't be the Reds, as they went broke. The one thing against Perth, is the distance they are, and the travel costs involved. It's fine in the AFL as the sport is popular there, but for a reasonably small city, and the distance, for a minor sport is a problem. But there still should be a team.

Adelaide yes as well.
 

dimitri

First Grade
Messages
7,980
I agree

we need Perth and Adelaide

but it looks like the NRL wants Gold Coast, CC and Wellington before perth and adelaide again

:roll: :roll: :roll:


I think things might start moving once the proposed POKIE TAX comes in

this may be a huge incentive for clubs to relocate out of NSW




However there is also a question of how many teams and how many rounds


i think the current system is a joke
where you play some teams once and some teams twice

Id prefer just to see everyone play each other once

and therefore i agree with NOEL

have a 20 team play each other once
have the top 8 - still
have state of origins
city-country origin
test matches etc

the teams would look something like this

Melbourne Storm
Canberra Raiders
Auckland Warriors
Wellington Might
Newcastle Knights
Central Coast Bears
Brisbane Broncos
Gold Coast Chargers
NQ Cowboys
Perth Reds
Adelaide Rams

Panthers
Roosters
Bulldogs
EELS
Dragons
Sharks
TIgers
Rabbits
EAGLES


then you have 20 teams all playing each other once
 

Alan Shore

First Grade
Messages
9,390
I think it's even possible to have an 18 team national comp. I'd also reduce the number of rounds to allow for more Internationals.
 

dimitri

First Grade
Messages
7,980
yeah that sounds good

get rid of this stupid system where you play some teams once and some teams twice

then have more internationals

and proper kangaroo tours

with matches against
ENG
IRE
SCOT
WALES
FRANCE
AND GB x 3
 

Alan Shore

First Grade
Messages
9,390
dimitri said:
yeah that sounds good

get rid of this stupid system where you play some teams once and some teams twice

then have more internationals

and proper kangaroo tours

with matches against
ENG
IRE
SCOT
WALES
FRANCE
AND GB x 3

And Russia as well. We should also get the Junior Roos to play Serbia, Italy etc and the Pacific Islands.
 

dimitri

First Grade
Messages
7,980
me too

nothing beats international competition

no matter what sport it is

2 nations
2 anthems
etc etc

we need more internationals
 

Special K

Coach
Messages
19,393
I'd love to have those teams back. It's great fun watching your team play in another state. Even if the crowd is only 10, 000 that is 10 thousand more people interested in our game.

I'd love a 20 team comp. With all of our current teams plus the Central Coast Dolphins(a name I've been told they'd use if they ever had a top team), Gold Coast, Adelaide Rams, Perth and either a 2nd Brisbane team or a Wellington team.

I think the NRL are just trying to get their own backyard in order before attacking the other states again.
 

dimitri

First Grade
Messages
7,980
cutting adelaide and perth were very very very stupid

adelaide were never going to stand a chance once arl and super league got together

the team , like hunter were notched up in one second without any thought but amazingly was still a success


i thought the reds stodd a chance since they had been there since 1995
but that never happened

whatever happened to super leagues idea of a national competition????
 

Stevo_G

Juniors
Messages
696
cutting adelaide from the comp was stupid
hopefully souths can mpve to the central coast then a new team can come from the gc to make up the 16 teams
 

Ultima

Juniors
Messages
469
The main problem is money (as always) the NRL bosses are only willing to give so much to the clubs.... The cost of getting there would most certainly be the biggest stopping point... If a club in that area was willing to pay for travel (like the Raiders did in the first couple of years to get excepted into what was previously a Sydney only comp) then they would be in with a shot but I doubt and league club in Perth or Adelade would have the cash for it :(
 

Steven Gerrard

First Grade
Messages
5,013
after reading all dis, i've relized im the only fan of each team vs every team twice a season, one home and one away....
 

Nevcost

Juniors
Messages
1,079
Heres what happened to Perth and Adelaide, source www.rl1908.com
Perth / Western Reds
Club History
by Sean Fagan of RL1908.com

The Perth Western Reds joined the Australian Rugby League for the 1995 season. Rugby League though was not new to the people of Western Australia, as it had been played competitively in Perth since the end of World War Two.

The upheavel caused by the War had seen many servicemen from the West exposed to rugby league games while they were in army training camps (organised by Easts' Ray Stehr) in Darwin and on visits to Brisbane and Sydney.

Meanwhile, large numbers of servicemen from the eastern states had remained in Perth after marrying WA girls. The arrival of the 1946 British Lions triggered the growing movement to establish rugby league in Perth and a club competition soon commenced.

The first competition was formed from established RU clubs who crossed over to rugby league. The most significant move was by the Fremantle Club, who were the first Rugby Union club formed in Western Australia. South Perth also changed codes, while the Cottesloe and Perth (later called Belmont) clubs decided to field teams in both games. A new club was formed by ex-Fremantle players was called Applecross. The playing standard was assisted by the Balmain Tigers who toured Perth in 1949.

In 1950 the British Lions returned to Perth playing (and soundly beating) a full Western Australia team at Claremont Showground. The State also soon played against tourists from France and was a stop-over match for the Kangaroos as they sailed for England.

In 1957 the NSWRL made the first permanent steps to improve the WARL's development by sponsoring an annual visit by Sydney clubs in each of the seasons that followed. North Sydney were the first team to tour, followed by Parramatta, Newtown, Manly and the other clubs. Even a NSW Combined Country team were sent one season.

While rugby league never reached any great heights in the West, it was certainly well above the standard of any efforts in Melbourne or Adelaide. In the late 1980s the NSWRL began successfully playing one-off first grade games in Perth.

The NSWRL first called for submissions for a Perth team in 1991, as projections were made for the expanded 1995 competition. In November 1992, with a final decision by the NSWRL imminent, the Perth Pumas director Ralph McManis was interviewed by the Sunday Mail (Queensland) on the reasons the club should be accepted.

"We will use the WACA for the first two seasons before moving to what we have registered as the West Australian Football Stadium. Currently it is Leederville Oval, the home of the West Perth Australian rules team. The current capacity is 15,000, but we will be rebuilding a grandstand to bring it up to 20,000. It is right in the heart of the city."

"The local player base has little bearing on the Pumas side, but it is not generally realised that over the last three years nine West Australian juniors have gone on to play first or reserve grade football with clubs in NSW and Queensland. We are producing Junior Kangaroos, and we have two elite junior squads of players who will be around 19 or 20 in 1995."

"We have been allowed into secondary schools in recent years, and the result has been a bomb waiting to go off. Our biggest problem is finding enough referees and grounds to cope with the growing numbers."

"It makes little sense to us in the West if we are serious about developing a national game to continue to develop in areas where league is already strong. To give it (the 18th place) to anyone on the eastern seaboard would be playing into the hands of the other codes."

"The big fear is that if there is not a firm commitment for 1995 or 1996 at the latest, and the AFL grants a second licence to Perth, we will lose much of the corporate support that is currently committed to rugby league."

"The team has to be competitive. We are not making any grandiose claims, but we would like to think we could finish in the top seven or eight in our first year. We have an indication of intent from Peter Sterling to coach the side, and with his expertise and good back-up, we would certainly be competitive."

"The bonus of our submission is that one of our major sponsors would assist greatly with home and away travel expenses. That was an area in which we initially looked at asking for some concessions, but that is no longer a concern. We have even figured into our expenses a second team, maybe staying in the East for several weeks at a time, because we have a wealth of juniors waiting to be developed."

"The clubs which we have taken a lot of help and advice from have been Canterbury and Parramatta. We have identified a couple of senior people we have talked to and will continue to pursue one to become our General Manager. We make no pretence that we intend to reinvent the wheel over here. We will use expertise from the East to run the club and train our people at the same time."

"In the last few months the AFL and basketball have begun to realise that we are in with a serious chance of having a team here, and they are genuinely worried. The West Australian newspaper is looking at employing two fulltime league writers, and local television has decided to commit $250,000 to coverage of rugby league in 1993."

"If there is no commitment it would place a huge burden on us to continue the development of the last few years. We have a wonderful stable of junior league players with nowhere to go except East, and we cannot continue to have the scouts coming across to rip players out of the West."

"Pumas players not required for the first team each week would be released to play in the local competition. Having 15 or 20 top players available would lift the standard of rugby league in Perth to a new high. Our bid has the wholehearted support of the 10 clubs in Perth."

The NSWRL announced in December 1992 that the WARL's submission was successful and the Perth Pumas (later changed to Western Reds) would debut in 1995.

The club's initial playing roster was built around Michael Potter, Brad Mackay (capt.), Mark Geyer, Craig Innes, Jeff Doyle, Matt Fuller, Chris Ryan, Peter Sheils, Rodney Howe, Brendon Tuuta, Greg Fleming and Matthew Rodwell, under the coaching of Peter Mulholland.

After defeating St. George at the WACA (25,000) by 28-16, the Western Reds went on to establish a formidable home ground record - ultimately winning 8 of 11 games in Perth. Their season ended in a very respectable 11th position (one win away from a semi-final place) out of the 20 clubs competing.

The arrival of the 1996 season saw the game in the midst of the Super League battle and the Western Reds were not unaffected. The club gained Robbie Kearns (Cronulla) and Julian O'Neill (Brisbane), but lost ARL-aligned Craig Innes (Manly) and Brad Mackay (Illawarra). The Western Reds were amongst the clubs to forfeit their opening game (v St George) of the season as the court battles continued.

Their on field performances were diabolical in the first half of the season. The Reds were in financial crisis and their crowds regularly dropped below 8,000 to make the situation worse.

Of their first 12 games they won only once, leaving them at the bottom of the ladder. However, a late season rally began after a boil-over defeat of Grand Final bound Manly by 11-8 at the WACA. The Reds lost only four games in the remaining part of the season and managed to drag themselves up to 16th place.

Super League finally started in 1997 and the Western Reds, now known as Perth Super League, were one of the clubs in the 10 team competition. Under the coaching of Dean Lance the club produced another inconsistent season finishing in 8th position in the Telstra Cup and losing World Club Challenge away matches to lowly Paris and Sheffield. The season highlight was a crushing 34-6 win over Canterbury at Perth Oval in Round 4, but ever growing speculation that the club would be closed at season's end or moved to Melbourne increasingly lead to poor results.

The rumours were soon proved to be well founded and the Perth side was closed down at the completion of the 1997 season. The bulk of the side signed on with Melbourne including Kearns, Howe, John Wilshire, Matt Geyer, Paul Bell, Tristan Brady-Smith and Wayne Evans.

The loss of Perth ended premiership rugby league's all too brief flirtation with the people of Western Australia. While undoubtedly the game's administrators saw the Victorian market as much larger, it is a state that has no rugby league base.

While the Storm would soon achieve Grand Final success with a completely imported team, they are still decades away from having a Victorian rugby league player in their club. The ARL and Super League had a long established local rugby league community to build upon and to nuture with the Western Reds.

The greatest achievement of the club is largely ignored and a tragic legacy to rugby league administration. Buried deep in their 1997 player roster is a small group of home-grown players. Lead by Jared Millar with 7 games, half-a-dozen local juniors earned first grade honours during the club's third season. With their path to premiership rugby league cut-off, none were ever to play in the NRL.

After struggling for existence for fifty years, rugby league in Western Australia had finally emerged. On the brink of producing a team of its own local players, it had the door to the "national" competition shut in its face.

In April 2000 the President of the WARL called on the NRL to stick to its goal of a truly national competition, predicting a Perth team would return by 2007. Whether the Perth and Fremantle sporting fans would be willing to embrace rugby league again is another question. The local competition is the strongest in Australia outside of NSW and Queensland.

Footnotes: While not featuring in first grade the following Reds U'19 players from 1997 have been involved with NRL clubs:

Shannon Hegarty joined the Sydney Roosters when the Reds closed and is now an established NRL player. He was not from Perth and is eligible for State of Origin selection for Queensland. Hegarty played for Australia in 2003. Fijian born Semi Tadulala moved from Townsville to play for the Reds. In 2003 he became a regular starter with the Melbourne Storm.

Matthew Petersen is the sole Perth local who has gained NRL selection.

Petersen moved to Newcastle to pursue his rugby league career after the Perth club folded. He played in the 2001 Knights First Division side and NSW Residents, before gaining a NRL contract with North Queensland for 2002.

The winger/fullback made his debut for the Cowboys in the opening game of the season against the Broncos. After playing 8 games for North Queensland he was released mid-season to join Parramatta, making his Eels debut in their loss to the NZ Warriors in Auckland.

Western Australia / Perth Rugby League History © Sean Fagan / RL1908

Adelaide Rams
Club History
by Sean Fagan of RL1908.com

The NSWRL long had hopes of eventually having a team in the South Australian capital. Laying the groundwork began with games being taken to Adelaide Oval, the most successful being in 1991 when 30,000 fans packed in to watch St George take on Balmain. Winfield Cup games taken to Adelaide proved to be much more successful than any taken to Perth or Melbourne in the same period.

An Adelaide consortium under the control of the South Australian Rugby League, lodged an application in mid-1994 to the ARL to join the expanded 1995 premiership - it was announced that the side would be named the Adelaide Aces. The bid was unsuccessful.

On 12 November 1994 the Adelaide Advertiser reported that News Ltd's 1996 competition would include a South Australian club. It announced that Sydney club would relocate to Adelaide Oval and would be named the Adelaide Aces. Events would soon see the end of that plan.

The push for an Adelaide team gained serious momentum once the SARL signed on with Super League in June 1995. While it seems Super League's preference was for a Melbourne team, the VRL had remained loyal to the ARL slowing down progress. The Victorian government was also hesitant to provide any assistance or support.

In December 1995, with Super League still only having nine clubs for its 1996 competition, the organisers hastily returned to South Australia to put together their Adelaide side. John Ribot made a number of relevant comments at the club's launch in (13/12/95) about why Adelaide was invited into the 1996 Super League competition with virtually no preparation and how the Rams name was selected.

"Adelaide was preferred over Melbourne as the 10th franchise because of the enthusiastic acceptance of Super League by South Australian Premier Dean Brown and the move by the SARL to switch to Super League recently."

"Due to legal constraints that have prevented us from negotiating with existing clubs who have expressed a desire to join us, we have decided to fast-track Adelaide," Ribot said. "Victoria is going to happen, but Adelaide put up their hand first."

"The Adelaide Rams name is readily identifiable with strength and hardness. The interim label of the Adelaide Aces was too soft, and did not have the required identity and "branding" necessary for a Super League team," Ribot explained.

The local media though pointed out that the name "Adelaide Rams" was actually a discarded tag that had been originally proposed for the "Adelaide Crows" AFL side.

Super League franchises from around the country were then asked to provide a couple of players each to boost the Rams' stocks in the few weeks remaining before the 1996 season. Impressively, in that same short period, the Adelaide Rams sold 7,000 season tickets for their home matches at Adelaide Oval.

The Adelaide Rams played two trial games in 1996 losing to Canberra in Fiji and defeating Perth by 14 points in Darwin. However, the Super League was brought to a shuddering halt by the Courts and the 1996 season never eventuated. While the players dispersed across the ARL competition for the season, the fans kept faith for 1997 with two thousand of them not seeking a refund on their season ticket/seat.

When the go ahead was given for the 1997 Super League competition in October 1996, sixteen of the Rams original 21-man playing squad returned to Adelaide including Rod Maybon, Kevin Campion, David Boughton, Alan Cann, Chris Quinn, Dean Schifilliti, Andrew Pierce and Mark Corvo.

Also joining the team was the Brisbane international hooker Kerrod Walters. The Rams were coached by ex-St George players Rod Reddy and Tony Smith (as assistant).

Adelaide performed credibly in the ten-team Super League competition. The Rams won six of their 18 games and had an average home crowd of 15,000. Although they finished in ninth place, only two points covered positions six to ten in the final standings.

The Rams enjoyed wins over Hunter (in their debut home game), a 29-18 demolition of Cronulla at Shark Park and twice found Penrith's measure, particularly the final game of the season where the Panthers were crushed 36-16.

The World Club Challenge also provided the Rams the chance to secure some more wins - in Australia they thrashed all three of their opponents. In the return games in England, Adelaide again beat Oldham but suffered defeats to Leeds (at the famous Headingly ground) and Salford.

The Adelaide Rams only representative player in 1997 was Kevin Campion who turned out in two games for the Queensland Origin Tri-Series team.

In the meantime, a number of younger players grabbed some limelight - in particular Luke Williamson, David Kidwell and Adam Peek.

The Rams survived the December 1997 "peace-deal" unlike their counterparts the Hunter Mariners and Perth Reds. Unfortunately for Adelaide, Super League's new team - the Melbourne Storm - had already snared the bulk of the available players. The Rams were bolstered for the inaugural NRL competition by Noel Goldthorpe, Tony Iro and Matt Daylight. After the season had commenced the club also secured the services of Deon Bird and Graham Appo.

1998 turned out to be a disaster for the Rams. By the end of the season there were few positive points to reflect upon. The on-field performances were at times so bad, that it is surprising that the Rams managed to hold their home crowd average to 7,500 faithful fans.

Producing only one win in the opening seven games drove the club apart, eventually resulting in coach Rod Reddy being shown the door. Reddy was sacked in early May after the club rejected a team for the game against Canberra - the coach had intended to drop at least four star players from the starting 13.

Out of work Perth Reds coach Dean Lance took Reddy's place. Lance turned things around slightly, thanks largely to on-field efforts led by Kerrod Walters, which saw the Rams eventually finish the season in 17th place (of 20 teams).

The Rams permanently abandoned the open spaces of Adelaide Oval in round 15 with a "Steel Cities" match against Illawarra in Whyalla - the Steelers won the match 39-4 to further dishearten the few remaining loyal fans who had travelled from the capital city. In the following three rounds Adelaide delivered their best run of the season - they thrashed the Gold Coast Chargers 40-12 at Carrara, embarrassed Balmain 52-0 at Hindmarsh Stadium in the club's finest performance ever and defeated the South Sydney Rabbitohs at the SFS by 34-18.

An important milestone looked set to be achieved in the final home game against Manly. With Dean Schifilliti ruled out on the morning of the match by back spasms, the Rams called upon local 17 year old Para Districts player Adam Glover as his replacement.

A member of the ARL's Developing States squad, Glover's inclusion in the Ram's first grade team would see him as the first Adelaide Rams local junior to play NRL. However, five minutes before team lists had to be submitted to the NRL, Schifilliti declared himself fit and Glover watched the Sea Eagles from the Hindmarsh stands.

In the final game of the season the Rams looked set to cause a huge boilover at Marathon Stadium as they took an early 3-try lead over the semi-final bound Newcastle Knights. However, Adelaide (wearing predominantly gold jerseys) were overrun in the second half and eventually beaten 34-20. The end of the season saw Tony Iro gain representative honours for New Zealand to become the Rams only ever Test player.



With the NRL deciding to keep twenty teams for the 1999 season, the Rams set about on a buying spree to help secure their tenuous position for the impending 14 team competition of 2000. At a pre-season launch in November of 1998, the Rams trotted out their new squad in jerseys more closely reflecting the traditional colours of South Australia. The team at this time had all settled in to Adelaide and included new players Luke Priddis, Albert Torrens, Jason Ferris and Terry Hermanson.

However, amidst the hope for the future, the St.George and Illawarra merger triggered further talks between the NRL partners. Adelaide was told by News Ltd: "We have concluded that further significant financial commitment by News, in addition to funds received from the NRL, is not financially viable". The Rams Board had desperately sought out alternative funding and merging with a Sydney club to no avail.

On 1 December, while the players were away at a training camp in Strathalbyn, the Rams closed their doors. Their promising 1999 team never took the field.

After being selected in an ARL & Institute of Sport development squad, Adelaide teenager Nathan Vagg joined Cronulla. A prop forward, Vagg made his NRL debut for the Sharks in May 2003.

And here's something very interesting to note that I found from www.deadclubsociety.org


'Adelaide Tigers - how the NRL killed the romance between Balmain and the Adelaide Rams''

1 December 1998, the Sydney Daily Telegraph (News Limited publication) reported that the NRL privately told the Balmain Tigers they could not offer to enter any merger agreement with the Adelaide Rams.

Balmain CEO John Chalk said that they were told they could not re-locate to Adelaide or negotiate any merger agreement.

"They were an out of town team and they (NRL) didn't believe we should go. the answer was: it's not on our agenda."

3 december 1998, the Rams close their doors for the last time, dead after just 2 seasons.



Balmain die at the end of the 1999 season when they mutually agree with Wests to kill themselves in a joint venture deal by giving birth to a new club, the Wests Tigers, a far more competitive team with the likes of Ken McGuinnes, Craig Field and John 'thumbs up' Hopoate.

The JV also got a grant of around $4m from the NRL.

Both foundation clubs sell out for a manufactured 'shelf company' club, with no history, tradition or relationship with the two great clubs they killed in the process.
 

Nevcost

Juniors
Messages
1,079
These three articles I've found very interesting as the first two show just what exactly happened. The last one shows how the NRL kicked the notion of expanision in the gut, forbiding the merger of Adelaide and Balmain.
 

dimitri

First Grade
Messages
7,980
"They were an out of town team and they (NRL) didn't believe we should go. the answer was: it's not on our agenda."

i think if you read the above quote

and then think of the "criteria"

im not sure how anybody could say that the criteria was just
 

Alan Shore

First Grade
Messages
9,390
What a bunch of idiots. Balmain were prepared to move - first to Melbourne, then to Adelaide. Things would be so much better if they went to Adelaide - then the Magpies could have gone back to Perth and things would be rosy for Australian rugby league!
 

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