RLIF in talks to start US Pro League

[Whatwhere]

That's three more teams spending a million a year on players on crowds of 1000.

The bloke behind it isn't short of a quid. As for the crowds. Who knows.

 

[Whatwhere]

Fair go, rugby league has only been played for 15 odd years with weekly games semi regularly in the USA. Union a century longer more or less nationwide.

Point is, bagging a professional competition that has managed to get on the pitch is a bit rich when discussing another one that may or may not ever happen. The article suggestd that it would require $100m. Considering Rugby is much, much larger with a number of very well healed former players and yet several other groups with similar concepts and investment targets couldn't raise those funds it's going to be a hard slog.

 

[IntRLEnthusiast]

The bloke behind it isn't short of a quid. As for the crowds. Who knows.

Crowds may not be the most important thing to start with.. Obviously you'd want to have some sort of a crowd but corporate backing and TV rights are the things that make it sustainable. If it's a good product and gets a good niche market in the US then people will see it on TV and want to then go see it live. I would just love to be here in Aus watching an American competition. It would be great!

 

[Whatwhere]

200k haha. sure thing pal. Please dont direct me to a press release; im not gonna believe it

A strong believer of belief perseverance are we?

 

[Whatwhere]

Crowds may not be the most important thing to start with.. Obviously you'd want to have some sort of a crowd but corporate backing and TV rights are the things that make it sustainable. If it's a good product and gets a good niche market in the US then people will see it on TV and want to then go see it live. I would just love to be here in Aus watching an American competition. It would be great!

From what I can find the break even mark for crowds is 3,000 supposedly. Overall the league averaged a little over 1,750 a game. The San Francisco crowds impacted the overall average. Could have been closer to 2500 if they managed similar crowds as the other teams.

Any League competition should be looking at PRO Rugby very closely. The idea of raising $100m is largely fantasy. The PRO model would be more realistic. But it won't be like for like. The crowd figures are scoffed at above by some without considering that Rugby is about 1000% (going from the USARL site their might be 400 RL players in the US) larger than League in the US. Initially if some of these games draw in 1000 spectators they would be considered hugely successful.

 

[siv]

Concerned at the impact to the existing USARL setup

Better that this league becomes the professional League

I state the impact that the impact that Broncos Knights Warriors Steelers had on the domestic leagues

Better to develop what they have than super league it

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

From what I can find the break even mark for crowds is 3,000 supposedly. Overall the league averaged a little over 1,750 a game. The San Francisco crowds impacted the overall average. Could have been closer to 2500 if they managed similar crowds as the other teams.

Any League competition should be looking at PRO Rugby very closely. The idea of raising $100m is largely fantasy. The PRO model would be more realistic. But it won't be like for like. The crowd figures are scoffed at above by some without considering that Rugby is about 1000% (going from the USARL site their might be 400 RL players in the US) larger than League in the US. Initially if some of these games draw in 1000 spectators they would be considered hugely successful.

Well Jacksonville must be over the moon they get crowds like that already and have done for a while.

 

[IntRLEnthusiast]

Is the middle ground to this idea to try and financially prop up the USARL in such a way that allows them to go pro even if it's pro on a shoestring budget?

 

[Whatwhere]

Well Jacksonville must be over the moon they get crowds like that already and have done for a while.

Yes, but Jacksonville is the exception to the rule in terms of League in the US.

 

[adamkungl]

I wonder how they come to the number of $100 million? I have no idea of the costs involved outside rough guesswork for what it takes to run a team based on player salaries and other examples from Australia and around the world. Same for running a comp.

I'm assuming $100 million wouldn't be an up-front number, rather total over a number of years. I'd hazard a guess that you could get a fledgling league off the ground for ~$15-20 million a year.

The big question of course, is who would come up with that money.
The RLIF obviously doesn't have it. The NRL and RFL would likely be unwilling and uninterested to contribute any funding.

Moore Sports? An ongoing investment of such a large number with any profit a long way down the track, if ever, is a lot more daunting than a one off major event like the RLWC.

A consortium of investors? Who in the US would stump up to start a new pro sport with such high risk of no return.

 

[Whatwhere]

I wonder how they come to the number of $100 million? I have no idea of the costs involved outside rough guesswork for what it takes to run a team based on player salaries and other examples from Australia and around the world. Same for running a comp.

I'm assuming $100 million wouldn't be an up-front number, rather total over a number of years. I'd hazard a guess that you could get a fledgling league off the ground for ~$15-20 million a year.

The big question of course, is who would come up with that money.
The RLIF obviously doesn't have it. The NRL and RFL would likely be unwilling and uninterested to contribute any funding.

Moore Sports? An ongoing investment of such a large number with any profit a long way down the track, if ever, is a lot more daunting than a one off major event like the RLWC.

A consortium of investors? Who in the US would stump up to start a new pro sport with such high risk of no return.

It's a huge risk. As I mentioned before it has been tried before with Rugby. Moore Sports actually had a concept. Looking at that figure it wouldn't surprise me if its them again trying a different angle.

Thing is, as above with Rugby being a lot more popular and with a number of well heeled former players and supporters (several of them billionaires. The bloke behind PRO Rugby practically is) they still couldn't do it.

It's going to be a tough ask.

 

[adamkungl]

Side note, just read an article that some multinational company are going to invest $100mil into Chinese rugby with the support of the government and World Rugby.

Really hope the RLIF has some big plans for post-2017..

 

[Whatwhere]

Side note, just read an article that some multinational company are going to invest $100mil into Chinese rugby with the support of the government and World Rugby.

Really hope the RLIF has some big plans for post-2017..

Ali Baba. Well, actually their sports broadcasting divisions AliSports.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Good luck from me anyways. I hope any rugby league attempt is a raging success.

Don't really think about what others sports are doing these days. If rugby league wants it, they have to go after it and make it happen.

 

[Big Picture]

I wonder how they come to the number of $100 million? I have no idea of the costs involved outside rough guesswork for what it takes to run a team based on player salaries and other examples from Australia and around the world. Same for running a comp.

I'm assuming $100 million wouldn't be an up-front number, rather total over a number of years. I'd hazard a guess that you could get a fledgling league off the ground for ~$15-20 million a year.

The big question of course, is who would come up with that money.
The RLIF obviously doesn't have it. The NRL and RFL would likely be unwilling and uninterested to contribute any funding.

Moore Sports? An ongoing investment of such a large number with any profit a long way down the track, if ever, is a lot more daunting than a one off major event like the RLWC.

A consortium of investors? Who in the US would stump up to start a new pro sport with such high risk of no return.

We can estimate the costs in by prorating those of CFL teams, allowing for the different numbers of players and associated staff and different length of season. CFL teams play an 18-match season with a roster of 56 players (46 active roster and 10 practice roster) and a salary cap of 5.1 million $ per club. A league rule states that players who get injured and can't return have to be paid through to the end of the season and on average there are 10 of those per club by this time of year so that's 66 players to be budgeted for, making an average of just over 71,000 $ per player.

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers' 2015 annual report lists operating expenses of 23,899,837 $ from Football (sic) Operations (11,409,630 $), Marketing and administration (6,394,960 $), Stadium occupancy (5,267,881 $) and Game (sic) day transportation (827,366 $). The Blue Bombers have 15 coaches including the General Manager and another 10 Football (sic) Operations staff including three Athletic Therapists and three Equipment Managers. So players, coaches and associated staff combined means 91 persons on the payroll.

A pro RL club would have a roster of 25 players and perhaps three coaches counting the GM; the remaining Football Operations staff probably doesn't need to be more than 6 persons for a total of 34 instead of 91. If the new league started with 8 clubs playing a 14-match season plus playoffs just like the old AFL did in 1960 and costs were at the same general level as for the CFL, a club would spend about 3,315,618 $ on Football Operations, 4,097,240 $ on Stadium occupancy and 270,114 $ on Match day transportation and 4,973,858 $ for Marketing and administration for a total of 12,656,830 $.

A rule of thumb is that it takes 5 years before a new business breaks even, so on that basis each potential franchise owner(s) would need to show proof of a net worth of at least 63 million $ (5 years' operating costs) for the league administrators to minimize the risks of franchises failing before then.

 

[Whatwhere]

We can estimate the costs in by prorating those of CFL teams, allowing for the different numbers of players and associated staff and different length of season. CFL teams play an 18-match season with a roster of 56 players (46 active roster and 10 practice roster) and a salary cap of 5.1 million $ per club. A league rule states that players who get injured and can't return have to be paid through to the end of the season and on average there are 10 of those per club by this time of year so that's 66 players to be budgeted for, making an average of just over 71,000 $ per player.

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers' 2015 annual report lists operating expenses of 23,899,837 $ from Football (sic) Operations (11,409,630 $), Marketing and administration (6,394,960 $), Stadium occupancy (5,267,881 $) and Game (sic) day transportation (827,366 $). The Blue Bombers have 15 coaches including the General Manager and another 10 Football (sic) Operations staff including three Athletic Therapists and three Equipment Managers. So players, coaches and associated staff combined means 91 persons on the payroll.

A pro RL club would have a roster of 25 players and perhaps three coaches counting the GM; the remaining Football Operations staff probably doesn't need to be more than 6 persons for a total of 34 instead of 91. If the new league started with 8 clubs playing a 14-match season plus playoffs just like the old AFL did in 1960 and costs were at the same general level as for the CFL, a club would spend about 3,315,618 $ on Football Operations, 4,097,240 $ on Stadium occupancy and 270,114 $ on Match day transportation and 4,973,858 $ for Marketing and administration for a total of 12,656,830 $.

A rule of thumb is that it takes 5 years before a new business breaks even, so on that basis each potential franchise owner(s) would need to show proof of a net worth of at least 63 million $ (5 years' operating costs) for the league administrators to minimize the risks of franchises failing before then.

They'd need a net worth substantially more than $63m. According to your figure they'd have to be willing to commit to spending that much.

 

[adamkungl]

Those figures are way over the top for an operation that would be treating crowds of 1000 as a big achievement. Start modestly and work your way up.
No point paying $4mil for a 30k capacity stadium, or spending more on admin than football operations.
A team with total player salaries of $1-2mil should be able to run the whole operation on $5-10mil

 

[Whatwhere]

Those figures are way over the top for an operation that would be treating crowds of 1000 as a big achievement. Start modestly and work your way up.
No point paying $4mil for a 30k capacity stadium, or spending more on admin than football operations.
A team with total player salaries of $1-2mil should be able to run the whole operation on $5-10mil

Some people won't like it but I looked up information on the development of PRO Rugby as it should be similar to the model any potential pro league should take at first. According to what I have found the salaries ranged from $20-35k depending on whether a player had played for their national team. International marquees earned about $60k.

All up the owner has stated he spent $4m on salaries alone. So with travel, accomodation, broadcast (they produced some of their content while AOL and One Sports produced much of it) etc. you can likely estimate he didn't see much change out of $10m.

This was for a 12 game season with about a 6 week pre-season for each squad.

 

[adamkungl]

Some people won't like it but I looked up information on the development of PRO Rugby as it should be similar to the model any potential pro league should take at first. According to what I have found the salaries ranged from $20-35k depending on whether a player had played for their national team. International marquees earned about $60k.

All up the owner has stated he spent $4m on salaries alone. So with travel, accomodation, broadcast (they produced some of their content while AOL and One Sports produced much of it) etc. you can likely estimate he didn't see much change out of $10m.

This was for a 12 game season with about a 6 week pre-season for each squad.

Thats $4mil on salaries for 5 teams, not 1 team. Big Picture above is throwing around numbers of $12mil per team from the get go, which is an impossible fantasy.

 

[Whatwhere]

Thats $4mil on salaries for 5 teams, not 1 team. Big Picture above is throwing around numbers of $12mil per team from the get go, which is an impossible fantasy.

Which should be concerning as in the original article the RLIF were quoting $100m price tag. Just not in the realms of possibility.