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Round 11 vs Sharks

Dragon David

Juniors
Messages
2,342
I agree with alot of what you have stated although, with all due respect we have improved since Flanno took over our attack...it is no coincidence that Dufty now plays a lot like Ben Barba and also Clune finally getting a shot in1st grade.

None of these things would have happened when McGregor had total control....just go back and look at a few of our games from last year and the difference is chalk and cheese.

Whoever eventually takes over will have to rebuild the side. I.M.H.O we lack a few hard boppers in the Forwards ala Costigan/J.Smith/Weyman etc...we have wonderful younger talent coming through...

The Sooner the incumbent coach is gone...the quicker these things can start to take place.

It is a pity we cannot Sack our Board...that's where the real issues lie...

Stay healthy and have a great week Old Timer.
Yes, I agree with the comments from Old Timer and Getsmarty.

We have improved with Flanno but much more improvement is needed in both attack and defence. He may not be the answer but since he more or less has some say in areas where Mary has lacked for years, Flanno has provided this improvement. However, great defence is the essential ingredient to winning big games and great attack is the icing on it all for the excitement it creates. Players like Dufty and Lomax can give us this each week and I am sure that there are others in the squad who can also provide this.

Still need to have stronger, more physical, mongrel and no argue forwards to dominate and a lot more offloads/second phase plays. We could do with a Jason Ryles type coach to help out with the defence.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,310
This.

The fact very much remains that our roster overall is average at best. Once Frizell (and potentially de Belin) are removed from the top 30 list, the roster then moves somewhere towards the poor side.

Mentioned in another thread yesterday that I felt recruitment & retention have been nothing short of poor since the JV was formed (and that even included the Bennett era to an extent). Looking at our recent approach towards how we spent the de Belin salary cap relief last year, and how we've recruited a replacement for Graham this year, it's hard to see this changing any time soon.

Further to this point, and reflecting on recent comments from Bennett RE: the Broncos mess, would a premiership winning coach like Shane Flannagan (or any other seasoned first grade coach for that matter) want to put his name to our current roster? While I agree that Flanno should be in the mix for our future coach, he will not turn our fortunes around and get us back to the pointy end of the competition unless we make some serious changes to our recruitment policy.

We are a bare minimum two good buys in the pack (one decent middle and one decent edge player) + at least one classy outside back (looking at someone in the Alex Johnston mold who can cover all of full back, wing, centre - but be a mainstay in one position and be a leader from the back) away from being a regular top 8 contender again. This is also accounting for a change in coach - as we won't be able to make decent recruits while McGregor still remains 'the face'.

It's easy to throw these statements around, but you don't actually provide any solutions. It's just a blame game. Same with OT - it's all doom and gloom and throwing accusations out at people who want to enjoy the games as opposed to looking for negativity week in week out.

So for your De Belin salary cap relief, who else was available? Who else do we sign for that limited amount of money for the remainder of the year?

As I said elsewhere, why would CHN want to come to a team that is only a couple of spots above the team he is leaving when he can go to one that is going to challenge for the premiership? You make it sound like it's a matter of picking up the phone and saying "hey, we've got a spot, come on over". I can fully understand why we don't attract players and why the recruitment role would currently be an absolute nightmare. 2 examples:

  • Frizz getting offered the same as what Newcastle offered yet he wants to go somewhere where they have a chance to win a premiership before he retires
  • Suli knocking back a better money offer to stay at Manly

Not even money can entice players to us. It's got nothing to do with us not approaching the right players or even being in the mix - it's about what we offer those players we are approaching. From the outside, we look like a boring footy team that is going nowhere. Who in their right mind would want to come and play for us as long as Mary is in charge. Seriously. I think we are very lucky to be retaining the juniors we do because surely they can see that they are going to get limited opportunities once they reach the point of NRL.

Lastly, this shit isn't going to turn around overnight. We still see Mary sitting in the coaches chair and we still hear him talking at the conferences and in the interviews. So to think that Flanno has full control is naïve. The fact is though, that we are seeming some changes in attack and we are seeing a slightly different game plan. So there is influence there. But, in the case of OTs post, to say that Flanno's impact is nothing, is very limited to his regularly negative view. We aren't going to be premiership contenders in a couple of weeks. Even with a new coach this year or next, this will take time. And for as long as Mary is still there, this will drag out.

So your last sentence is the key. For as long as Mary is there, recruitment and progress will be stifled.
 

Slippery Morris

First Grade
Messages
6,184
With the amount of ball Sharks had Saints did well to hold them out as much as they could. There was times they had 10+ tackles due to the ref's 6 again bull$hite calls.

Graham played the ref beautifully, there was a time when after all these 6 again calls, Sharks lost the ball, Graham puts in a challenge and gets that call as well. He had the ref on a string as he was in his face most of the game.

Fittler said on the footy show this morning that it look the last 20 minutes of the game for the Saints to get some calls right from the ref.

Considering the Sharks had the Ref in their pocket all game, Saints did well to only lose by a try. Gutsy effort.
 

Warabrook saint

Juniors
Messages
1,799
Firstly, our poor showing in the first half lost us the game imo.

I’d be intrigued to hear Clark and Galea’s explanation for their decision though, but we won’t. They could only have thought Dufty’s hand wasn’t his.

Annesley confirming the obvious and dropping the Bunker refs within hours after the game does nothing for me. The Bunker’s has some howlers this season and they just have to get it right then and there.

I’d be interested in your opinions on this though or maybe someone can clarify. Competing for the ball when a bomb goes up.

Yesterday, in the Warriors game, Fusitua goes up, before he touches the ball he is nudged by a Roosters player who has eyes for the ball who leapt early but was under Fusitua, Fusitua knocks on. I don’t like it. The reality is there was no competition for the ball in the air given Fusitua’s position, but it seems as though if the attacking player keeps their eyes on the ball, all is good.
Sneaky coaching
 

dannyt

First Grade
Messages
8,683
With the amount of ball Sharks had Saints did well to hold them out as much as they could. There was times they had 10+ tackles due to the ref's 6 again bull$hite calls.

Graham played the ref beautifully, there was a time when after all these 6 again calls, Sharks lost the ball, Graham puts in a challenge and gets that call as well. He had the ref on a string as he was in his face most of the game.

Fittler said on the footy show this morning that it look the last 20 minutes of the game for the Saints to get some calls right from the ref.

Considering the Sharks had the Ref in their pocket all game, Saints did well to only lose by a try. Gutsy effort.
Agree regarding Graham, but don't you think it's McInnes' job to do exactly the same thing?
 

getsmarty

Referee
Messages
28,815
Vossy’s Verdict: Yes, the Bunker had a shocker. But don’t tell me it cost Dragons the game

The Dragons
: Look, I get it that the Sharks try in the first half was a howler, but come on… please don’t say it was the difference between the teams in the end. If a team can’t overcome a bad call in the opening 10 minutes of a match then I’m placing just as much scrutiny on that team for their failings as I am the officials in the dud decision.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...e/news-story/20d608dd4a03ba65c802d24b0395a8b9
 

dannyt

First Grade
Messages
8,683
Vossy’s Verdict: Yes, the Bunker had a shocker. But don’t tell me it cost Dragons the game

The Dragons
: Look, I get it that the Sharks try in the first half was a howler, but come on… please don’t say it was the difference between the teams in the end. If a team can’t overcome a bad call in the opening 10 minutes of a match then I’m placing just as much scrutiny on that team for their failings as I am the officials in the dud decision.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...e/news-story/20d608dd4a03ba65c802d24b0395a8b9
The decision didn't help, but it probably didn't cost the the game.

Enough chances to win at the death but failed to deliver.

Oh, and 20% possession for 40 minutes following restart after restart, and 22-0 in that time, also didn't help.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,525
It's easy to throw these statements around, but you don't actually provide any solutions. It's just a blame game. Same with OT - it's all doom and gloom and throwing accusations out at people who want to enjoy the games as opposed to looking for negativity week in week out.

So for your De Belin salary cap relief, who else was available? Who else do we sign for that limited amount of money for the remainder of the year?

As I said elsewhere, why would CHN want to come to a team that is only a couple of spots above the team he is leaving when he can go to one that is going to challenge for the premiership? You make it sound like it's a matter of picking up the phone and saying "hey, we've got a spot, come on over". I can fully understand why we don't attract players and why the recruitment role would currently be an absolute nightmare. 2 examples:

  • Frizz getting offered the same as what Newcastle offered yet he wants to go somewhere where they have a chance to win a premiership before he retires
  • Suli knocking back a better money offer to stay at Manly

Not even money can entice players to us. It's got nothing to do with us not approaching the right players or even being in the mix - it's about what we offer those players we are approaching. From the outside, we look like a boring footy team that is going nowhere. Who in their right mind would want to come and play for us as long as Mary is in charge. Seriously. I think we are very lucky to be retaining the juniors we do because surely they can see that they are going to get limited opportunities once they reach the point of NRL.

Lastly, this shit isn't going to turn around overnight. We still see Mary sitting in the coaches chair and we still hear him talking at the conferences and in the interviews. So to think that Flanno has full control is naïve. The fact is though, that we are seeming some changes in attack and we are seeing a slightly different game plan. So there is influence there. But, in the case of OTs post, to say that Flanno's impact is nothing, is very limited to his regularly negative view. We aren't going to be premiership contenders in a couple of weeks. Even with a new coach this year or next, this will take time. And for as long as Mary is still there, this will drag out.

So your last sentence is the key. For as long as Mary is there, recruitment and progress will be stifled.
You fail to acknowledge that in amongst the criticism in fact many solutions have been offered
  1. Sack the coach
  2. Sack some grossly underperforming players
  3. Recruit better quality players
  4. Proper transition of juniors
  5. Better game plans
  6. Better use of the bench
It is due to none of this being fully implemented that the poor results on the field continue and the relevancy of our team to anyone other than the most diehard of fans continues to decline.

The negativity towards the enjoyment of a few measly wins against almost entirely poor opposition is for the fact that those measly wins is what perpetuates the current position.

if not for the couple of wins against shit or depleted opposition the pressure from the media would not have been released and it is the releasing of that pressure has put us further behind the 8 ball as other clubs take affirmative action in efforts to get better quickly and not dilly dally and pussyfoot around for 7 years.

I understand fans want to rejoice in winning but do they understand how the few wins we get to celebrate is part of the underlying reason we don’t get to cheer very often or for very long and we then hang our heads in despair as it all implodes in similar fashion season after season?

The supposition that Mary is not going to see out his contract is clutching at straws.
 
Last edited:

hazzbeen

Bench
Messages
4,617
You fail to acknowledge that in amongst the criticism in fact many solutions have been offered
  1. Sack the coach
  2. Sack some grossly underperforming players
  3. Recruit better quality players
  4. Proper transition of juniors
  5. Better game plans
  6. Better use of the bench
It is due to none of this being fully implemented that the poor results on the field continue and the relevancy of our team to anyone other than the most diehard of fans continues to decline.

The negativity towards the enjoyment of a few measly wins against almost entirely poor opposition is for the fact that those measly wins is what perpetuates the current position.

if not for the couple wins against shit or depleted opposition the pressure from the media would not have been released and the releasing of that pressure has put us further behind the 8 ball as other clubs take affirmative action in efforts to get better quickly and not dilly dally and pussyfoot around for 7 years.

I understand fans want to rejoice in winning but do they understand how the few wins the get to celebrate is part of the underlying reason we don’t get to cheer very often or for very long and we then hang our heads in despair as it all implodes in similar fashion season after season?

The supposition that Mary is not going to see out his contract is clutching at straws.
This .....
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,310
  1. Recruit better quality players.

My post was more about this as I thought was quite evident given the questions I asked. So how do we go about recruiting better quality players in the current environment? It's fine to make the statement, but nobody looks at it with any depth or offers up valid solutions as to how this could possibly occur given limitations in other areas. It's a common armchair coach comment that has never been adequately answered. Primarily because it can't with any real substance unless you make massive assumptions or list out some ludicrous dot points that entail spewing out a list of unbelievable lies and building some sort of conspiracy theories.

I personally don't think we can recruit better quality players with the position we are currently in. We can't start to even look at solving this until we get rid of the coach. So until that happens, in my opinion, it's pointless raising this.

I understand fans want to rejoice in winning but do they understand how the few wins the get to celebrate is part of the underlying reason we don’t get to cheer very often or for very long and we then hang our heads in despair as it all implodes in similar fashion season after season?

So your solution is not to enjoy the wins so that something is done about it? We have to find negative aspects of every game so that the powers that be will take notice? If so, I'll leave that up to you. I'm still going to enjoy the wins despite your reluctance to do so. I know what you are trying to do, but for me it's a pretty shit day when I can't enjoy my team winning a game - irrespective of what the future may hold.

And by the way, I never said Mary wasn't going to see out his contract. But I do feel as though Flanno is having more influence on the team than any other support coach has had in the past. This to me is a positive as it spells the start of the end for Mary.
 

matPORTS

Juniors
Messages
406
It's easy to throw these statements around, but you don't actually provide any solutions. It's just a blame game. Same with OT - it's all doom and gloom and throwing accusations out at people who want to enjoy the games as opposed to looking for negativity week in week out.

So for your De Belin salary cap relief, who else was available? Who else do we sign for that limited amount of money for the remainder of the year?

As I said elsewhere, why would CHN want to come to a team that is only a couple of spots above the team he is leaving when he can go to one that is going to challenge for the premiership? You make it sound like it's a matter of picking up the phone and saying "hey, we've got a spot, come on over". I can fully understand why we don't attract players and why the recruitment role would currently be an absolute nightmare. 2 examples:

  • Frizz getting offered the same as what Newcastle offered yet he wants to go somewhere where they have a chance to win a premiership before he retires
  • Suli knocking back a better money offer to stay at Manly

Not even money can entice players to us. It's got nothing to do with us not approaching the right players or even being in the mix - it's about what we offer those players we are approaching. From the outside, we look like a boring footy team that is going nowhere. Who in their right mind would want to come and play for us as long as Mary is in charge. Seriously. I think we are very lucky to be retaining the juniors we do because surely they can see that they are going to get limited opportunities once they reach the point of NRL.

Lastly, this shit isn't going to turn around overnight. We still see Mary sitting in the coaches chair and we still hear him talking at the conferences and in the interviews. So to think that Flanno has full control is naïve. The fact is though, that we are seeming some changes in attack and we are seeing a slightly different game plan. So there is influence there. But, in the case of OTs post, to say that Flanno's impact is nothing, is very limited to his regularly negative view. We aren't going to be premiership contenders in a couple of weeks. Even with a new coach this year or next, this will take time. And for as long as Mary is still there, this will drag out.

So your last sentence is the key. For as long as Mary is there, recruitment and progress will be stifled.

There are many solutions that have been offered by many (including myself) across various other threads.

The whole point is that there has never appeared to be any strategy from the club with respect to recruitment and retention.

Agreed, it is not just a matter of picking up the phone and saying "hey we've got a spot, come on over". Thing is is that the board and those in charge of the operational management of the football team have shown time and time again that they either can't deal with or are simply too lazy to deal with the complexities around these matters - and that includes, as you allude to, marketing ourselves as a team where players want to come to (and in the case of being a junior want to stay) in order to further their careers.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,310
There are many solutions that have been offered by many (including myself) across various other threads.

The whole point is that there has never appeared to be any strategy from the club with respect to recruitment and retention.

Agreed, it is not just a matter of picking up the phone and saying "hey we've got a spot, come on over". Thing is is that the board and those in charge of the operational management of the football team have shown time and time again that they either can't deal with or are simply too lazy to deal with the complexities around these matters - and that includes, as you allude to, marketing ourselves as a team where players want to come to (and in the case of being a junior want to stay) in order to further their careers.

OK, so let me ask you, how do we go about marketing ourselves when what entices players is either money or likelihood to win the comp or progress their career?
 

Dragonslayer

First Grade
Messages
6,941
OK, so let me ask you, how do we go about marketing ourselves when what entices players is either money or likelihood to win the comp or progress their career?

This was explained pretty well on Fox the other day as they were debating the unlimited power of the Roosters to sign and retain players under the 'sombrero'.
Basically, one said (i think it was Cronk) players $$$ amount is only 1 factor in signing a club, the others are success ie playing finals and winning GF, culture and facilities. Players will sign for less if it = success and above all success = happiness.
Unfortunately we fail in all these aspects and why we need to pay excessive overs for middle class players.
 

The Badger

Juniors
Messages
80
OK, so let me ask you, how do we go about marketing ourselves when what entices players is either money or likelihood to win the comp or progress their career?
True, money or a premiership or career development are not incentives for the more established players on the market.That leaves us with one option.Develop our young talent.We already have Lomax,Dufty, Kerr making the grade with some other young backs coming through,in particular Ramsay.Where are our good young forwards?Just need a couple of them to emerge and buy a couple of hardheads to look after them.They are not expensive.Isnt that what Penrith did.?Lots of good young talent with Tamou and Fischer Harris looking after them.A few high profile players have been on the market recently, however none arrived at the Dragons doorstep.We need to look within.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
13,525
My post was more about this as I thought was quite evident given the questions I asked. So how do we go about recruiting better quality players in the current environment? It's fine to make the statement, but nobody looks at it with any depth or offers up valid solutions as to how this could possibly occur given limitations in other areas. It's a common armchair coach comment that has never been adequately answered. Primarily because it can't with any real substance unless you make massive assumptions or list out some ludicrous dot points that entail spewing out a list of unbelievable lies and building some sort of conspiracy theories.

I personally don't think we can recruit better quality players with the position we are currently in. We can't start to even look at solving this until we get rid of the coach. So until that happens, in my opinion, it's pointless raising this.



So your solution is not to enjoy the wins so that something is done about it? We have to find negative aspects of every game so that the powers that be will take notice? If so, I'll leave that up to you. I'm still going to enjoy the wins despite your reluctance to do so. I know what you are trying to do, but for me it's a pretty shit day when I can't enjoy my team winning a game - irrespective of what the future may hold.

And by the way, I never said Mary wasn't going to see out his contract. But I do feel as though Flanno is having more influence on the team than any other support coach has had in the past. This to me is a positive as it spells the start of the end for Mary.
The obvious obstacles are the BOD and the coach so unless there is change in those positions it is all incredibly difficult but that doesn't preclude us from offering up the change that is most need namely replace the coach.

If the club ekes out a few wins the chances of changing the coach diminish greatly. Don't change the coach and cheer for 6 or 7 wins a year until such times as you do change the coach and he rebuilds the roster.

It will not take many wins for the BOD to dig their heels in and keep the great Mc Fookknuckle in the role.

All the bla bla bla in this place about Flanno and his influence is exactly that because IMO there is little difference in how we attack and / or defend as a "team".

We have looked more attractive on the back of Lomax and Dufty's creativity but other than the things they do individually what we are doing as a "team" remains almost exactly as it was before.

Take the individual efforts out of our game each weekend and what do we have?

We don't have a Cameron Smith or Thurston or a Munster or a Cronk or a Tedesco and nor do we have great team work so I am at pains to see exactly what Flanno is improving in us as the results aren't exactly outstanding and some of the losses could have been wins.

In many ways the criticism of the meagre wins is as a direct result of the totally unacceptable losses we are forced to endure. If not for those unacceptable losses we would be having totally different conversations in here. When the totally unacceptable losses outweigh the meagre wins, then you end up in exactly this situation we are debating.

Re recruiting better players I think we need to start by having a change in our culture namely professionalism
  • Drop under-perfoming players and stop mucking around by changing their positions. This will show that we are concerned with results and will take action to get them. Good players don't wont to go to clubs that linger in mediocrity unless of course it is for exceptional overs (Hunt & Norman)
  • Pick and stick with developing players unless of course they are grossly out of their depth.
  • Have a real and tangible development path for local juniors or those juniors bought in foremother clubs.
  • Bring in the likes of Andrew Johns, Billy Slater, Paul Harragon, Matt Cooper to educate our players in finer points of the game.
The simple reality is we all enjoy a win regardless of what is said in this place but for some the enjoyment of the win is diminished because we should have so much more and unless we lose almost every game we will be stuck in this quick sand for a very long time to come.

Graant Hackett was interviewed recently as to how he viewed his Silver & Bronze Olympic medals and he said "as failures" well that's the sort of attitude that we need to instil in all at our club because we see finishing near 8th as acceptable.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,310
True, money or a premiership or career development are not incentives for the more established players on the market.That leaves us with one option.Develop our young talent.We already have Lomax,Dufty, Kerr making the grade with some other young backs coming through,in particular Ramsay.Where are our good young forwards?Just need a couple of them to emerge and buy a couple of hardheads to look after them.They are not expensive.Isnt that what Penrith did.?Lots of good young talent with Tamou and Fischer Harris looking after them.A few high profile players have been on the market recently, however none arrived at the Dragons doorstep.We need to look within.

Isn't that what we are doing by resigning Blacker? We've also brought Lawrie through. See to me it isn't a recruitment thing - again, it's a development thing - and this comes down to the coaching staff and in particular Mary. We are signing these young players and keeping them all the way through - but they get roadblocked at first grade. We also just got in that young Panther (that people have already bagged) as a young player with potential. I hope to see what he can provide but I'm not holding my breath because I can't see Mary giving him a go. We have Vaughn, Merrin, Sims to help bring them through.

Frizz is established but he's leaving because of premiership potential. We get established players nearing the end of their careers who are looking for a pay packet. It's all we can attract. CHN late in his career going to Raiders due to premiership potential - why would he come here unless we offer overs?

I disagree, money and premierships are definitely still on the cards for established players.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,310
If the club ekes out a few wins the chances of changing the coach diminish greatly. Don't change the coach and cheer for 6 or 7 wins a year until such times as you do change the coach and he rebuilds the roster.

It will not take many wins for the BOD to dig their heels in and keep the great Mc Fookknuckle in the role.

Me sitting at home cheering or not cheering for the team isn't going to make one iota of a difference to what the BOD decides to do or how the team plays. Me being down on the team winning is only hurting myself as I have absolutely no influence over their actions.

Grant Hackett talking about his failures is fine - because he has influence over his results. I am also under no illusion that anything I write or say in here is going to influence any decisions made by the BOD or the club - the Sack Mary thread is a prime example of that.

You can choose to be overly critical of the team - that's your prerogative. However I'm still going to celebrate a win. Does that mean that I want Mary to stay? Hell no. Does that mean that I don't want change at the club? Hell no. But to me, something is wrong if I can't celebrate the team I support having a win. As Tru said elsewhere, these things are not mutually exclusive.
 
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