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chiefy1

Juniors
Messages
2,147
Exactly - Bodies in motion...

Instead of front loading ALL of our effort into the collision, maybe we can save just a small amount of that by having bodies in motion, as you say "off the ball", that is just as an import "effort area", that I would imagine actually takes a lot less energy.

But BA said to chase the collision ?
 

Avenger

Referee
Messages
27,106
If we are seen as a team that is coached by a bloke that can't produced a premiership winning game plan and just works his player hard but unable to harness their natural flare and abilities, then we may eventually find it hard to attract the very best compared to the other top tier teams.
I’m starting to think that BA is a solid coach but just an inferior version of Terry Fearnley. Which is why history may repeat itself and we should try and jag someone like Jack Gibson way back in ‘81.

Wayne Bennett?
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
67,224
Well the middle forwards is where the majority of the game is played so you would expect the top players on the list to be all middle forwards. Interestingly enough the Storm have five on the list of total decoys in the Top 50, but those five still only account for around half of their decoys, so the other half comes from I'd imagine the other edge forward and the two centres (and a mix of the other middles that come in and out of that Storm side).

Interestingly enough the Tigers two edge forwards appear in the Top 50, as does at least one edge forward from each of the the Top 5 sides. None of ours though.

When you look at the average decoys done by individual players per game, the Storm have 5 in the Top 50, Panthers 4, Sea Eagles 4, Rabbitohs 3, and us 2 (Junior and RCG). The other 4 all have an edge forward in there.

I'm certainly not saying it is Papali'i's responsibility, but it has become too predictable that he's going to be getting the ball and the defence is ready. We need to create other options around him in our setup so that someone else can get the ball and he becomes the decoy. If that can happen five times a game alone, then that will create more opportunities for sure. It seems a simple and small adjustment to me to our setup, that will have huge benefits.
Notable that Nathan Brown, who plays long minutes compared to most middle forwards, is absent from the NRL top 50. Also notable that there are only three forwards in the NRL top 20 for runs, and two of them play for Parra. I get that Nathan Brown is an important ball handler in our structure, but he makes too many carries, for mine. Like Jake Trbojevic, he makes a lot of carries for little impact. However, they do play more as middle halves. Maybe the problem is that we even need a middle half in the first place, but I'm not going to second guess experienced coaches like Arthur's and Hasler.

Here's the forwards with the most carries, compared to their impact per carry. Papali'i is certainly wasted making too many decoy runs. If he's available he should be getting the ball:

NameRuns per gamePCM per run
Fisher-Harris17.13.70
Papali'i16.53.82
Nrown16.42.57
Taupau16.13.48
Thompson16.03.34
Haas15.94.65
Klemmer15.84.00
Crichton15.73.58
Waerea-Hargreaves15.73.73
Welch15.63.24
Campbell-Gillard15.53.67
Trbojevic15.52.32
Saifiti15.43.89
Taumalolo15.23.98
Pangai15.13.15
Vaughan15.14.09
Barnett15.13.44
 

Avenger

Referee
Messages
27,106
Nathan Brown has regressed and is called the handbrake for a reason. I’m watching the Dogs game and a player like Luke Thompson is so much more effective.

By the way Sean Russell is 190cm tall and 90kg. He has plenty of growing to do and I’d be making him my long term centre with Penisini when Opačić becomes captain of the Redcliffe Dolphins in 2023.

Penisini is already 98kg and 180cm.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
67,224
Exactly - Bodies in motion...

Instead of front loading ALL of our effort into the collision, maybe we can save just a small amount of that by having bodies in motion, as you say "off the ball", that is just as an import "effort area", that I would imagine actually takes a lot less energy.
We are top five for support runs, well ahead of teams that attack on the edges, like Penrith, Souths and Manly, but behind the hard working Storm and Tigers (who are both also top two for decoys). It looks like we are playing to our strengths, but Arthur's is right to demand more in our effort areas. Chasing the collision is more of a defensive mantra. We often lack effort in the middle to get numbers into the tackle. We need more merkins wanting to collide with the opposition runners.
 

Avenger

Referee
Messages
27,106
Notable that Nathan Brown, who plays long minutes compared to most middle forwards, is absent from the NRL top 50. Also notable that there are only three forwards in the NRL top 20 for runs, and two of them play for Parra. I get that Nathan Brown is an important ball handler in our structure, but he makes too many carries, for mine. Like Jake Trbojevic, he makes a lot of carries for little impact. However, they do play more as middle halves. Maybe the problem is that we even need a middle half in the first place, but I'm not going to second guess experienced coaches like Arthur's and Hasler.

Here's the forwards with the most carries, compared to their impact per carry. Papali'i is certainly wasted making too many decoy runs. If he's available he should be getting the ball:

NameRuns per gamePCM per run
Fisher-Harris17.13.70
Papali'i16.53.82
Nrown16.42.57
Taupau16.13.48
Thompson16.03.34
Haas15.94.65
Klemmer15.84.00
Crichton15.73.58
Waerea-Hargreaves15.73.73
Welch15.63.24
Campbell-Gillard15.53.67
Trbojevic15.52.32
Saifiti15.43.89
Taumalolo15.23.98
Pangai15.13.15
Vaughan15.14.09
Barnett15.13.44
Great work Pou. Nathan Brown is the Martin Lang of his generation. Tries hard but gets smashed.
 

IFR33K

Coach
Messages
12,689
I’m starting to think that BA is a solid coach but just an inferior version of Terry Fearnley. Which is why history may repeat itself and we should try and jag someone like Jack Gibson way back in ‘81.

Wayne Bennett?

I personally like to think of Ba as Matt Elliot. Made the semis and was decent just couldn’t do much when it mattered.
 

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
12,897
Notable that Nathan Brown, who plays long minutes compared to most middle forwards, is absent from the NRL top 50. Also notable that there are only three forwards in the NRL top 20 for runs, and two of them play for Parra. I get that Nathan Brown is an important ball handler in our structure, but he makes too many carries, for mine. Like Jake Trbojevic, he makes a lot of carries for little impact. However, they do play more as middle halves. Maybe the problem is that we even need a middle half in the first place, but I'm not going to second guess experienced coaches like Arthur's and Hasler.

Here's the forwards with the most carries, compared to their impact per carry. Papali'i is certainly wasted making too many decoy runs. If he's available he should be getting the ball:

NameRuns per gamePCM per run
Fisher-Harris17.13.70
Papali'i16.53.82
Nrown16.42.57
Taupau16.13.48
Thompson16.03.34
Haas15.94.65
Klemmer15.84.00
Crichton15.73.58
Waerea-Hargreaves15.73.73
Welch15.63.24
Campbell-Gillard15.53.67
Trbojevic15.52.32
Saifiti15.43.89
Taumalolo15.23.98
Pangai15.13.15
Vaughan15.14.09
Barnett15.13.44

Papali'i's Post Contact Metres reduces in losses against the Top 6 sides to 2.47 per run against the Panthers, 2.5 against Souths and 1.86 against Manly. It was 3.1 in the win against the Roosters.

We need to come to up with game plans that will enable us to beat the Top 6. We clearly have the other 10 covered (albeit probably not without Moses, as was shown against an under strength Raiders outfit the other night.). I'm presuming his Post Contact Metres are well above 4 against the bottom 4-5 teams.
 
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Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
67,224
Papali'i's Post Contact Metres reduces in losses against the Top 6 sides to 2.47 per run against the Panthers, 2.5 against Souths and 1.86 against Manly. It was 3.1 in the win against the Roosters.

We need to come to up with game plans that will enable us to beat the Top 6. We clearly have the other 10 covered (albeit probably not without Moses, as was shown against an under strength Raiders outfit the other night.). I'm presuming his Post Contact Metres are well above 4 against the bottom 4-5 teams.
ffs merkin, how do you think all the top forwards go against the best defensive sides? How do you think the best halves and outside backs go? Everyone goes worse against better defences.
 

strider

Post Whore
Messages
72,026
I have been saying for at least 2-3 years that we need more players moving "off the ball". I expected more in this area from Matto when we signed him actually.
f**kin oath ..... its been an issue for an eternity ..... I think its the kind of thing that comes with confidence and enthusiasm .... there are tries we have scored this year where you go, f**k yeah do that all the time ffs
 

Chipmunk

Coach
Messages
12,897
ffs merkin, how do you think all the top forwards go against the best defensive sides? How do you think the best halves and outside backs go? Everyone goes worse against better defences.

Well Pou Bear, I'm glad you asked.

Below is your list of players, with their Post Contact Metres (PCM) per run against the Top 6 sides.

As you can see, yes most players have some reduction in PCM's per run against the Top 6 sides. However, as you will see, the difference between two of our players (Papali'i and RCG) PCM's per run against the Top 6 is considerably more than the majority of the differences amongst the other players. Both are above 16% less in PCM's per run against the Top 6 sides compared to their overall average. 11 of the 17 on the list have a reduction of 9% or less. The only other two players who have a bigger reduction in PCM's per run are the two Roosters, Crighton (-19.27) and JWH (-30.83). Outside of that, Thompson (-12.28%) and Klemmer (-13%) are the only ones with a reduction of more than 9%. Klemmer incidentally has missed a lot of games for the Knights against the Top 6 sides.

Interestingly enough, there are some players who have gone better against the Top 6 teams. Welsh with an increase of 6.48% and Trbojevic an increase of 18.54%. Barnett has a slight increase of 0.58%, which we will say is about the same. Based on the small numbers, I think we can classify Haas, TPJ, JFH and Saifiti as also going about the same against the Top 6 sides. So really, 7 of 17 are going about the same against the Top 6 sides.

So, clearly not all of the best forwards in the comp go as worse as ours against the Top 6 sides in PCM's!

NamePCM per run against Top 6Percentage Difference
Fisher-Harris3.66-1.09
Papali'i3.18-16.75
Nrown2.38-7.39
Taupau3.31-4.88
Thompson2.93-12.28
Haas4.52-2.79
Klemmer3.48-13
Crichton2.89-19.27
Waerea-Hargreaves2.58-30.83
Welch3.45+6.48
Campbell-Gillard3.06-16.62
Trbojevic2.75+18.54
Saifiti3.82-1.8
Taumalolo3.62-9.05
Pangai3.06-2.86
Vaughan3.87-5.38
Barnett3.46+0.58
 
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strider

Post Whore
Messages
72,026
Great work Pou. Nathan Brown is the Martin Lang of his generation. Tries hard but gets smashed.
I think you are being pretty harsh on Nrown ..... he has more energy than pretty much every other forward except maybe Papalii .... our forwards can tend to be trundlers alot of the time .... if we need a merkin to give us a lift, its usually Nrown
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
67,224
Well Pou Bear, I'm glad you asked.

Below is your list of players, with their Post Contact Metres (PCM) per run against the Top 6 sides.

As you can see, yes most players have some reduction in PCM's per run against the Top 6 sides. However, as you will see, the difference between two of our players (Papali'i and RCG) PCM's per run against the Top 6 is considerably more than the majority of the differences amongst the other players. Both are above 16% less in PCM's per run against the Top 6 sides compared to their overall average. 11 of the 17 on the list have a reduction of 9% or less. The only other two players who have a bigger reduction in PCM's per run are the two Roosters, Crighton (-19.27) and JWH (-30.83). Outside of that, Thompson (-12.28%) and Klemmer (-13%) are the only ones with a reduction of more than 9%. Klemmer incidentally has missed a lot of games for the Knights against the Top 6 sides.

Interestingly enough, there are some players who have gone better against the Top 6 teams. Welsh with an increase of 6.48% and Trbojevic an increase of 18.54%. Barnett has a slight increase of 0.58%, which we will say is about the same. Based on the small numbers, I think we can classify Haas, TPJ, JFH and Saifiti as also going about the same against the Top 6 sides. So really, 7 of 17 are going about the same against the Top 6 sides.

So, clearly not all of the best forwards in the comp go as worse as ours against the Top 6 sides in PCM's!

NamePCM per run against Top 6Percentage Difference
Fisher-Harris3.66-1.09
Papali'i3.18-16.75
Nrown2.38-7.39
Taupau3.31-4.88
Thompson2.93-12.28
Haas4.52-2.79
Klemmer3.48-13
Crichton2.89-19.27
Waerea-Hargreaves2.58-30.83
Welch3.45+6.48
Campbell-Gillard3.06-16.62
Trbojevic2.75+18.54
Saifiti3.82-1.8
Taumalolo3.62-9.05
Pangai3.06-2.86
Vaughan3.87-5.38
Barnett3.46+0.58
Good analysis. Interesting that Trbojevic goes so much better against the better sides but it probably points to him being used differently in those games, and also why he's a first choice Origin forward. It's unsurprising the two edge forwards (Papali'i and Crichton) have such a PCM reduction against the better defences, but surprising that RCG and JWH suffer such a drop off. Do we blame their coaches or their playmakers?
 

strider

Post Whore
Messages
72,026
Good analysis. Interesting that Trbojevic goes so much better against the better sides but it probably points to him being used differently in those games, and also why he's a first choice Origin forward. It's unsurprising the two edge forwards (Papali'i and Crichton) have such a PCM reduction against the better defences, but surprising that RCG and JWH suffer such a drop off. Do we blame their coaches or their playmakers?
I reckon the big teams target certain opposition players .... JWH for sure .... maybe RCG fits that too
 
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