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IFR33K

Coach
Messages
12,918
There are so many things that I can address in this post but I don't have the time or inclination to since I have already in many other posts other then to say once again the budget for non player salary is capped at $5m now. So you are referring to yesteryear. We and most other clubs can now compete with the big boys on this score. It comes down to your leaders in the board room more then ever now. If they are seen as savvy smart cookies and stable, and if you as a club are prepared to spend around that $5m, then it comes down to your recruiters and coaches.

It is very difficult to just buy the ready made playing talent necessary to win premierships. So Phil Gould is right, the smart clubs are slowly realising this now and beginning to follow and implement what he has done at the Panthers. If a club does that and has a stable smart board, hires quality personnel across the board at all levels, spends the necessary $5m on non player salaries, then there is no reason why they can't compete with the best eventually. We have most of this covered now. I think we are just shy of the assistant coaches and or head coach, but I think he would be fine if he had better assistants to bounce ideas around with. We should be looking for the best upcoming young minds in the game at the very least. I also think that our junior talent identification is amiss to some degree also and could be better.

Just on coaching, I would have loved if we had headhunted Billy Slater as a lower grade coach when he retired for instance. He to me is going to be a great coach if he wants to be and probably the best of the elite player bunch. I wonder if he could still do that and be the QLD coach? But if he comes through the lower grades, I feel he would brain it eventually at NRL level and if he did it here he would develop a soft spot for us and a very real possibility of one day being our head coach. He could also transition to assistant coach after a couple of years if as expected he started to excel and be to good to ignore with the expectation of taking over as head coach.

Also why not have another go at bringing Michael Ennis to our club? He turned us down when we first approached him for Canberra, but I think that he had done that because we were the weaker roster at the time and he wanted to go to a strong club. But the worm has turned on that and now might be the perfect time for him to come on board, especially how he loves Mahoney, it might just help in getting him across the line. But those are the sort of people I want our club to be always striving to have be part of our club. They have the smarts and the stature in the game that players respect and listen to. But even more importantly, they would be streets ahead tactically then the guys we have helping our head coach at present. Of that I am sure of.

Is it because I didn’t say please? 🤣
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
68,105
I’d argue we underachieved during the regular season with the roster we have.
What evidence supports that argument? All the current rep players? All the players who performed better in previous seasons? What about our roster puts us higher than sixth? I think you're overrating our players.

I tipped us to finish seventh, but the emergence of Reed Mahoney as a new attacking option certainly boosted us. Unfortunately he wasn't the same after round 13 and neither was our attack.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
68,105
If it’s not the coaches job to improve the team then who would you hold accountable instead?
Whoever is responsible for allowing us to pack the most playing talent under the salary cap. This is generally the job of recruitment/retention and development staff, though the money spent on hiring these people comes from higher up.
If it’s not the coaches job to improve the team then who would you hold accountable instead? Why even have a coach if their impact is so minimal? I don’t agree with you on the coach not being at fault for the Tigers’ current situation. He’s been there for 3 years now. It’s his job to implement measures that ensure the team improves. He has failed to do that thus far.
And yet Maguire 'improved' Souths enough to win the comp in his third year at the club. If he could do it there why couldn't he do it at the Tigers? You're conflating the head coach with all of the people behind the scenes who make strong clubs strong.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
68,105
There are so many things that I can address in this post but I don't have the time or inclination

Also TheRam:

No as I have said before, I don't have inside information. I have made an assessment from what I have heard or seen from players coaches or anyone involved in the game when they talk about Parra. It isn't such a national secret if you are keen to listen and learn and from what I have picked up over the last couple of years is that we don't do anywhere near enough multiple game plan training. Well not in the Storm class of training as an example anyway.

As for assistants telling Bellamy, Robinson or Bennett how the team attacks or defends? It's horses for courses in this area. Those three are obviously the best of the bunch, so they lay down the agenda and the assistants then follow and execute. But don't be fooled, even they need help at times.

Perfect example is the story of Bennett not being able to beat a curtain other NRL coaches teams ever. He just couldn't get what they were doing and were beating him(his teams) every time. So Bennett one season went out and hired one of the other coaches assistants and then sat him down and got him to show him and explain exactly what this other coach was doing. Finally Bennett got it and that was it Bennett teams started winning against that coaches teams.

But in general, depending on the type of coach, the input of offensive or defensive tactics would vary up or down for the assistants and how much they lead the process. With our coach, well I'm sure you remember the time when after another heavy loss on the flight home, our coach sat next to Anasta and asked him for defensive advise and so then Anasta showed him on the back of napkins different scenarios. That in itself shows us that he isn't so tactically minded at the least. I don't have a problem with this as long as he recognises his short cummings and brings in the necessary help needed.

Which brings us to who has he hired to show him the way forward? I can't say I feel like we are in safe hands with the two he has around him. It also suggests why we may not value training our offensive and defensive structures endlessly and mercilessly as much as some of the other teams do. Let alone training for multiple plans as I have heard our own players mention over the last couple of seasons now, that we don't train for this or that. It seems as though we train for the collision and the front loading and everything revolves around that. But not much else. That doesn't leave much room for error and or adjustment when things go awry.

Look at Ciraldo who is considered a brilliant defensive coach. What does that mean? I would have thought that it meant that the head coach would have enough confidence in him to allow him to lead the defensive agenda and tell the coach how he thought the team should go about defending different attacking raids and structures. They are the number one defensive team in the NRL.

So lets see, has anyone ever praised our assistant coaches for their brilliant input or admired the way we defend or attack in general, not just the individual moment here or there or game, but the way we play as a team other then our power game when that works? It's the formation and structure of offence or defense that I am referring to here, not the individual players ability to defend or attack. But how they work in the systems they have trained at and nailed them. That can only happen if you have smart operators leading and guiding the way and merciless repetition at training. Listen to Bellamy coached players how they are always referring to the endless hours they practice everything they do on the field at training every week and the different game plans they go through. Bellamy is brutal on this aspect of preparation. They practice everything till it is perfect and then practice some more.

Does it look like we do the same thing out there on the field to you? We barely look like we recognise each other out there at different times during the season. Even when the Storm, Panthers or Roosters don't play well or lose, do they ever look as inept or confused as we do when we are playing badly? Remember we are in the same ball park for quality of players. Sure they may have an extra superstar or two then us, but we have quality right across the board that should be so well prepared that we should never look so lost. But we so often do and not just against the better teams either.

That to me tells me we are not doing something right on the training paddock and the people responsible for driving and executing that are the coaches, most players are see monkey do types. If the coach staff don't think there is a need for something, most players will follow and like I said earlier, I have heard our players say that we don't train for...fill in the blank. Example a hooker going down or being a player short(but I think they started to train for this one now).

But the real obvious and more concerning part is that we don't train for what comes after plan A. We need to have at least a plan B, but we totally don't have one and when we play the Panthers tonight, if we aren't dominating them and scoring points, what then?

Remember they have the best defense in the NRL, so what do we do then? If they play like I expect them to and be real energetic and aggressive in defense, what will we do to get around that? This is where the coaching staff earn their supper. What will they have devised to thwart the Panthers smothering defense? The hitup, frontloading and chase the collision alone won't win this contest if the Panthers come to play. So what else tactically have our brains trust sat down and nutted out to combat the Panthers brilliant defense or their set play attacks? Have we worked out how to smother their attack? You can bet that the brains trust of the Storm or the Roosters would have worked on something and practiced it forever. I'll give you a clue, I would focus on Cleary and To'o.

So what is our solution? Well I suppose we will know tonight if they had one.

I think we have the players, but do we have the coaches? I really hope so, but I am sick of hoping and so expect a loss and a big one. That way I can only be happily surprised if by some miracle we actually win tonight.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
68,105
We are about to have some pretty significant facilities so, so that should not be a problem and I doubt that has stopped any of the better assistant coaches in the last two years if approached to join us.
I was referring to players. Our lack of facilities would definitely have stopped plenty of players from coming here for anything less than big overs. They are an indicator of how 'big' and professional our club is. They don't give a f**k about the size of the fanbase if it doesn't translate to footballing resources.

But I agree the new facilities are a huge step forward, and I expect them to improve our long term competitiveness in the player market, which will translate to a higher winning percentage over the long term.
As for career and investment opportunities, Penrith is hardly the Mecca of investment and career opportunities.
They have also only ever won two premierships. Don't confuse Penrith's purple patch of 2020-21 with Penrith the long term second tier NRL club. They are not a powerhouse any more than the Sharks were when they jagged their only competition.
As always you look for excuses as to why we can't. I am a Captain Can Do kind of guy, especially when the ingredients are there. I wonder who people prefer being lead by and or join an organisation that has the two different outlooks? The key to all success starts with aspiration first and a strong stable environment to achieve it. We have that and we have most if not all the ingredients, but you seem to think we don't. So lets just leave it at that.
What is this f**king dribble? Don't pretend you're some kind of success guru. The way you carry on here is proof that you're not.
 
Last edited:

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
18,416
Twal is 25, Papa is 23, I know who I wouId prefer…..

Keppie is 23, Kaufusi 22 and is as good if not better…

players leave, however we haven’t lost a player recently who wouId make us a better side and into serious contenders
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
10,318
They have also only ever won two premierships.

One of the youngest clubs that has finally got its shit together. If it sticks to the setup and programs that Gould implemented and keeps quality people in the roles that matter, then there is no reason why they can't add to them.

Sorry they aren't a foundation club mate or one the came in before the 50's. Makes a huge difference to your premiership tally compared to the modern NRL competition and sport in the professional era of the last 30-40 years or so.
 

Incorrect

First Grade
Messages
7,939
Twal is 25, Papa is 23, I know who I wouId prefer…..

Keppie is 23, Kaufusi 22 and is as good if not better…

players leave, however we haven’t lost a player recently who wouId make us a better side and into serious contenders
Kaufusi is as good, if not better than a bloke in the starting side of a top 4 side going in to a prelim final? Righto. Kaufusi isn't in the 17 for the team that finished 6th....but he's better than the other bloke at Manly....
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
68,105
If it sticks to the setup and programs that Gould implemented and keeps quality people in the roles that matter, then there is no reason why they can't add to them.
"If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. These systems require quality people, and the quality people don't come cheap. The best ones will get poached by the Roosters and Souths (and probably Manly too) and the only people who'll report it will be Penrith's equivalent of Delboy. You'll notice Gould is already gone. A club like Penrith can't afford to keep him on forever. Just like how our junior recruitment went downhill after Cleal left (about the time Manly's started to improve), the Gould effect will only last so long as they keep the people with the expertise, and keep pumping money into the areas Gould told them to.

For clubs on a budget, it's very easy when their NRL team is strong to find reasons to save money on junior 'development' (poaching) and other non-playing staff.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
68,105
Kaufusi is as good, if not better than a bloke in the starting side of a top 4 side going in to a prelim final? Righto. Kaufusi isn't in the 17 for the team that finished 6th....but he's better than the other bloke at Manly....
It's cheapies like Keppie that allow Manly to spend so much on their top three players. The top sides always have some of the cheapest and least involved bench forwards in the NRL.

Plus Keppie and Kaufusi were our starting props in the 2017 NYC grand final team and Kaufusi was our main go forward merkin, despite being a year younger than Keppie.
 

Gazzamatta

First Grade
Messages
8,835
Whoever is responsible for allowing us to pack the most playing talent under the salary cap. This is generally the job of recruitment/retention and development staff, though the money spent on hiring these people comes from higher up.

And yet Maguire 'improved' Souths enough to win the comp in his third year at the club. If he could do it there why couldn't he do it at the Tigers? You're conflating the head coach with all of the people behind the scenes who make strong clubs strong.
Such as Tommy T is dragging Manly and Des towards a GF, Id argue that Surgess did likewise for "fu*ken" Madge fu*ken.
 

yy_cheng

Coach
Messages
14,400
Just on coaching, I would have loved if we had headhunted Billy Slater as a lower grade coach when he retired for instance. He to me is going to be a great coach if he wants to be and probably the best of the elite player bunch. I wonder if he could still do that and be the QLD coach? But if he comes through the lower grades, I feel he would brain it eventually at NRL level and if he did it here he would develop a soft spot for us and a very real possibility of one day being our head coach. He could also transition to assistant coach after a couple of years if as expected he started to excel and be to good to ignore with the expectation of taking over as head coach.

Also why not have another go at bringing Michael Ennis to our club? He turned us down when we first approached him for Canberra, but I think that he had done that because we were the weaker roster at the time and he wanted to go to a strong club. But the worm has turned on that and now might be the perfect time for him to come on board, especially how he loves Mahoney, it might just help in getting him across the line. But those are the sort of people I want our club to be always striving to have be part of our club. They have the smarts and the stature in the game that players respect and listen to. But even more importantly, they would be streets ahead tactically then the guys we have helping our head coach at present. Of that I am sure of.
Ram, what about Jimmy maloney as an assistant? Maybe gameplans against specific teams
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
18,416
Kaufusi is as good, if not better than a bloke in the starting side of a top 4 side going in to a prelim final? Righto. Kaufusi isn't in the 17 for the team that finished 6th....but he's better than the other bloke at Manly....
That doesn’t mean he can’t be better…..

anyhow Keppie only made 11 runs 87 m / 14 tackles at 88% against the Roosters in 37 mins. Keppie only made 1 run 8 m 14 tackles at 93% against the Storm (assuming HIA? Only played 26 mins)

while Kaufusi against top 4 side panthers had 17 runs / 156 m 26 tackles at 87% in 48 mins.

obviously stats aren’t everything but there isn’t any indication Keppie is better (or much better) then Kaufusi.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
10,318
"If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. These systems require quality people, and the quality people don't come cheap. The best ones will get poached by the Roosters and Souths (and probably Manly too) and the only people who'll report it will be Penrith's equivalent of Delboy. You'll notice Gould is already gone. A club like Penrith can't afford to keep him on forever. Just like how our junior recruitment went downhill after Cleal left (about the time Manly's started to improve), the Gould effect will only last so long as they keep the people with the expertise, and keep pumping money into the areas Gould told them to.

For clubs on a budget, it's very easy when their NRL team is strong to find reasons to save money on junior 'development' (poaching) and other non-playing staff.
Now there is a nice little pou rainbow coloured paint job over the truth of what actually happened. The Panthers are doing just fine financially from what I have heard. If they decide to move away from what actually works, well bad luck for them. They now know what works and what doesn't. I wonder how much it cost them to run their football operations now relative to inflation as opposed to 10 years ago? Would it be all that much more, seeing they have always been a junior developing club, but just not spending the money wisely.
 

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