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Sack Flanagan

saintmar

Juniors
Messages
1,279
And that’s why I haven’t posted/ been on much mate.
I , along with ALL supporters want instant success!! BUT IM f**kING AWARE WE have A WAY TO GO! Which something a lot don’t want to see or hear.

though I can see some progression especially after having multiple games where we got flogged last year! Progression take time..
Ryles with no Moses for most of the year and who is a rookie coach in his first year is showing a lot more progresssion with Parra
We are going from 11th last year to possibly
15th or lower if we don’t jag a win or two for the remainder of the season
The only progression we are making is South on the ladder
 
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I'm Hornby

Juniors
Messages
1,141
Whilst Hame Sele, CT and Eisenhuth are far from marquee players, they all performed well in their roles when able to make it on the field (caveat for when Eisenhuth was asked to play in the centres). But.......2 of these 3 are not the ones that have hurt us to much by being injured. I think Hame is one of our better middles (when he plays). Especially since it has meant that Lawrie has played nearly every game). I think Eisenhuth has been missed in the middle. I think we have replaced CT quite comfortably (Finau, Lawson, Allen). The injuries or outs which have been a major contributor to our lack of success are TCouch, RCouch, DEgan, Sua, Val, Lawson. I rate Hame quite highly and I think his injury injuries + the loss of FMolo hurt our middles immensely and consequently, that weakening of our middles has affected the rest of our games.
Lol you're just clutching at straws even more so than usual.

Sele was a poor signing and has very questionable fitness.

How you can claim he is one of our best forwards when he has played one match this year and 12 last year is ludicrous, do any of his performances last year really stand out to you?
 

I'm Hornby

Juniors
Messages
1,141
With the plethora of excuses around injuries, not having the cattle etc and how that means we've overachieved with our six wins, fine let's pretend that isn't just plain dumb reasoning.

Let's pretend we are a top 4 side and just haven't had any luck this year due to injuries/ref calls/lack of depth etc.

So what is being done to prevent that recurring next year?
Surely Flanagan being an experienced premiership winning coach would know the shortcomings of this season and would be working hard to address this, so please enlighten me.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
18,734
I love how so many posters subscribe to the theory that S F has overachieved with the squad that we have.

The coach has guided the recruitment, retention, selections, bench usage and told us all that “there is footy side in there” but somehow not finishing 17th is a good enough result.

If someone told you at an interview he could finish 14th - 16th in his 2nd year would you have ever employed him in the 1st place?

We are the one’s not SF who are putting the ceiling on our squad and then doubling down to justify our position on the ladder.

The notion that we are overachieving by getting close is simply ridiculous because all those games we got really close we could have won so you need to ask why didn’t we?

It doesn’t make sense that such a bad side can overachieve in 50% of its losses.

What makes more sense is we don’t know how to ice games that are there for the taking nor do we know how to play for 80 minutes.

The last 2 games we run onto the field and be down by 12 points inside 10 minutes but then get close and we blame refereeing decisions fmd where was our concentration and game plan to get so far behind in the 1st place?

The squad is not great but it certainly isn’t the worst either but in some minds SF has performed a miracle where in his own mind I bet you he believes the results are shithouse and we should be much further up the table.
 

redVinme

Bench
Messages
3,212
So apparently, we are the only team who can only win when the other team plays badly but completely ignore the fact that these teams that are supposedly so much better than us only win because we drop our bundle at the end of the games.

Based on that logic the bulldogs, raiders and roosters are also shit and only won because we had lots of injuries and collapsed at the end of the game.

Saints win = Other team didnt try, ref let us back in the game, other team had players out, mercury was in retrograde

Other team wins = No explanation allowed, anyone that provides context is an apologist, team should somehow be winning games that the bookies have Saints $3+, Injuries dont matter, referee decisions have no impact (though they do when we win of course because they are letting us back into games apparently)

Some of the dumbest "analysis" going round and heavily predicated on personal bias.

Ask why we lost? Sure.

Want the team and coaching staff to be accountable. Absolutely.

Chat about what the club and coach could be doing better should be encouraged.

Being intentionally ignorant for effect or doing the" i love how all these other posters are dumber than me" posts are so boring especially when they make no sense. Name 3 teams with a worse roster. You wont find any agreement.

low quality squad = low chance of being able to close out games. It aint a hard concept unless you are intentionally trying to make it that way.
 

I'm Hornby

Juniors
Messages
1,141
So apparently, we are the only team who can only win when the other team plays badly but completely ignore the fact that these teams that are supposedly so much better than us only win because we drop our bundle at the end of the games.

Based on that logic the bulldogs, raiders and roosters are also shit and only won because we had lots of injuries and collapsed at the end of the game.

Saints win = Other team didnt try, ref let us back in the game, other team had players out, mercury was in retrograde

Other team wins = No explanation allowed, anyone that provides context is an apologist, team should somehow be winning games that the bookies have Saints $3+, Injuries dont matter, referee decisions have no impact (though they do when we win of course because they are letting us back into games apparently)

Some of the dumbest "analysis" going round and heavily predicated on personal bias.

Ask why we lost? Sure.

Want the team and coaching staff to be accountable. Absolutely.

Chat about what the club and coach could be doing better should be encouraged.

Being intentionally ignorant for effect or doing the" i love how all these other posters are dumber than me" posts are so boring especially when they make no sense. Name 3 teams with a worse roster. You wont find any agreement.

low quality squad = low chance of being able to close out games. It aint a hard concept unless you are intentionally trying to make it that way.
It's quite simple buddy, a win is a win and a loss is a loss.

You might take some heart that to date there hasn't been as many blow out scores, however that doesn't change the fact that we lost. Low quality squad, fine why hasn't Flanagan been able to change that the past two years? What has he done to change it for next year? It's almost August and we've signed one player.
Not good enough.

Ultimately if your assertion that we're a really competitive side was correct, we wouldn't be sitting here at this stage of the season with 6 wins and 12 losses.
How did we go against the tigers in magic round?
How about the bunnies in round two, the eels in round 5?
I could go on but the point stands, if we're such a competitive well coached team surely we win all three of those very winnable games and are sitting with 9 wins now and season still alive.

That's the cold hard truth and no amount of your rubbish apologist outlook posts changes this.
 
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possm

Coach
Messages
16,710
So you are telling me this blokes only contribution for two years has been walking around with a tick box form of duties other people do
The Club CEO, GM Football, Recruitment Manager, Coaching staff, and other essential staff also help to entice player managers to advise players on the best Club to move to.

We have only recently employed a new CEO and Recruitment Manager. We still have others that fall short and so, must be replaced.
 

since77

Bench
Messages
2,707
I love how so many posters subscribe to the theory that S F has overachieved with the squad that we have.

The coach has guided the recruitment, retention, selections, bench usage and told us all that “there is footy side in there” but somehow not finishing 17th is a good enough result.

If someone told you at an interview he could finish 14th - 16th in his 2nd year would you have ever employed him in the 1st place?

We are the one’s not SF who are putting the ceiling on our squad and then doubling down to justify our position on the ladder.

The notion that we are overachieving by getting close is simply ridiculous because all those games we got really close we could have won so you need to ask why didn’t we?

It doesn’t make sense that such a bad side can overachieve in 50% of its losses.

What makes more sense is we don’t know how to ice games that are there for the taking nor do we know how to play for 80 minutes.

The last 2 games we run onto the field and be down by 12 points inside 10 minutes but then get close and we blame refereeing decisions fmd where was our concentration and game plan to get so far behind in the 1st place?

The squad is not great but it certainly isn’t the worst either but in some minds SF has performed a miracle where in his own mind I bet you he believes the results are shithouse and we should be much further up the table.
Undoubtedly this year has been a huge disappointment. Can’t argue.
I do think Flanno has made some mistakes - especially in recruitment- but I can also understand why he made them. Personally I would have taken the pain of getting rid of Hunt last season rather than this season. Then gone all out to get a steady half for 2025. But instead we let Hunt go with no other halves on the market and that led to a panic buy of Ilias which was always going to be a disaster. Very poorly handled.
Some of his recruiting has smacked of desperation- but I actually feel sympathy for him in this regard. By the time he arrived we’d become a club with a stink of failure and mediocrity and when it was time for him to go to market he was left with browsing through the dregs.
Some buys have been outright bad or pointless - Sele, Ilias, Guler, Leilua, RFM, the ex kiwi we got from England last season.
Some have been ok or improvements- Gutherson, Holmes.
Others have just filled weaknesses and I regard neither great or poor - Klemmer, KF, Allen, Cook. I don’t think Cook has been bad but I don’t think he was necessary.
We are also stuck with a few out and out stinkers - Lawrie, Sloan.
I‘ve probably missed someone in the lists above - but they’re the ones who come to mind.

So Flanno has definitely shot himself in the foot with a few dud purchases - but I can see why he rolled the dice on a few of them. He was desperate and there was very little quality on the market. He inherited the worst roster in the NRL and it’s still piss poor. Anyone who thinks we have a top 8 roster is smoking some wickedly strong stuff.
We went into this season losing a starting front rower before a ball was kicked and I was already absolutely terrified at how bad our forward pack was before that happened. It’s the biggest weakness in our roster and I am completely convinced we continue failing until we get a forward pack that is vaguely competitive. Biggest issue bar none - including the weak halfback situation.
Then add in some key long term injuries to a roster that is already weak and it’s understandable why they are spiralling now.

The close games we have lost this year have been for the most part completely unacceptable.
All in all I can see why people like you are critical. Stats are on your side.

I still think the issue is obviously the roster. Which is why I’m already so pessimistic for ‘26 unless either we score a few NRL standard front rowers or a few of the young lions come good. Because it will be more of the same. I don’t think it matters who coaches us if we run out with the same squad in ‘26.
For me it’s simple, we don’t have the players. By now I’m so pessimistic that I can’t get excited about the Daniel Anderson recruitment appointment. As far as good news for ‘26 is concerned - I’ll believe it when I see it.
 

UDGE

Juniors
Messages
11
Coaching, management, mentoring and leading is ALWAYS about getting the absolute most out of your players/workers/staff. Our squad is basically made up of the following:

* Current rep level players (Val and Sua)
* Good serviceable NRL level players (Liddle, ChristanT)
* Young guns that are still pups (TCouch, RCouch, HStewart, Dylan Egan, LKT, LPT, VFafita, Tsougranis)
* Union convert in embryo stage of NRL (Lawson)
* Old ex-representative players in their twilight (Klemmer, Cook, Gutho, C Allen, JDB)
* Journeyman who have never reached their potential (Suli, KFlann, Guler, Ilias)
* Players that arent NRL level and only to see 1st Grade if injuries ravage us (Lawrie, M Molo, RFM, BMM)
* Players that promised the world potentially but just can't get there (Sloan, Sione Finau, Luciano)

Obviously players can fit into a number of these categories, but I have placed them in the ones that IMHO they fit best.

This squad has over-achieved. Credit for this must go to firstly, the players themselves for having the desire to play above your ceiling and secondly to the Coaches/Leaders for being able to extract that extra bit out of the individual player. This extra bit, when accumulated together via the TEAM performance adds up to a team playing WAY above the expectations of any "expert" or fan.
We all get frustrated when we see our players do DUMB shit or not be able to execute a fundamental skill or not be quick enough to close a gap, or not be able to score a miracle Xavier Coates type of try, or tap on a slick pass to your winger. But the reality is that our players are just that LITTTLE BIT to young/green, to old, to slow, to immobile, to dumb, to small, to regimented, too unskilled, too weak, too lacking in confidence. The squad lack of quality is not a myth, it is a FACT.
In all our games the commentators, fans, posters on this forum, experts give us no chance in every game and then we push the Raiders, Dogs, Roosters, Warriors,Sharks, etc, beat the Eagles, Storm, Broncos, etc and everyone is in disbelief that not only did we not concede a 50 burger, but nearly won and in a handful of those losses, were actually the better team and lost. Being too young, slow, unskilled, dumb, immobile, etc, is why we lose the close games. Our effort, desire, etc gets us to the point where we are in it up to our eyeballs, but then our lack of ability means we lose most of the close games. Intelligence, speed, athleticism, natural talent are all God given and cannot be coached. All these can be increased by really small margins by training, repetition, etc but the increase to God given talents can only be improved by negligible amounts. Eg, if a player is inherently a slow runner, doing sprints will help to increase that players speed, but not enough that he can run down the FOX.

When compounded by the unbelievable injury list and that with each long term injury you are now asking a player who technically is younger, dumber, less skilled, less experienced, has less ability to come in and play at the level of the player that just got injured, and multiply that by 7 or 8 injured players and you can see why we just don't have the cattle to win these close games. Heck. It's a miracle we are still competing
Doesn't reality suck sometimes ,hard to win a poker hand with a pair of two's but it can be done with the occasional good bluff but for the most of it the person with the flush wins and we are definately the team playing with the pair of two's
 

redVinme

Bench
Messages
3,212
It's quite simple buddy, a win is a win and a loss is a loss.

You might take some heart that to date there hasn't been as many blow out scores, however that doesn't change the fact that we lost. Low quality squad, fine why hasn't Flanagan been able to change that the past two years? What has he done to change it for next year? It's almost August and we've signed one player.
Not good enough.

Ultimately if you're assertion that we're a really competitive side was correct, we wouldn't be sitting here at this stage of the season with 6 wins and 12 losses.
How did we go against the tigers in magic round?
How about the bunnies in round two, the eels in round 5?
I could go on but the point stands, if we're such a competitive well coached team surely we win all three of those very winnable games and are sitting with 9 wins now and season still alive.

That's the cold hard truth and no amount of your rubbish apologist outlook posts changes this.
-------------------------------------

Dear Mr Im Hornby and Friends (alts)

I said its low-quality analysis to only use context that suits your narrative.

Low-capacity people like you do that.

They lack the ability to look past their bias and take on new information. They lack the ability to hold something in both hands at once and they lack the comprehension to understand nuance.

They also tell people what they know about them instead of asking questions. These are all signs of someone of a lower capacity. I'll let the audience decide how many of those might apply to you.

If youd asked I would have said I have plenty of issue with not only the club but also Shane as a coach. Instead however you told me what you want me to think, which suits your argument. Very assumptive, but more so the sign of a dullard.

"if we're such a competitive well coached team surely we win all three of those very winnable games and are sitting with 9 wins now and season still alive."

Again, never said any of this. I believe we have one of the worst teams in the comp and that includes how they are currently being coached. Youd have known that if you had asked....


I can just apply some critical thought as to why that is the case and not just make things up and move goal posts based on my personal agenda.

Its not being an apologist for thinking Shane (just going to put this here so you dont forget. I have plenty of issue with Shanes coaching but we are gonna try and hold two thoughts at once here ok?) has had a pretty raw deal in regard to CEO, GM and recruitment. I can also acknowledge that Shane has made a lot of mistakes in that space. See we are having more than one thought at a time now how exciting is this :D

My issue with people of your particular style. You find it impossible to even say saints could possibly play a good half of football.

Always explaining it away by saying it was orchestrated by the refs or the other team was having a bad game. That lack of being able to hold your feelings which can still be valid whilst also being able to give props where it is due is why I dont care about what you say.
I question your logic and reasoning which isn't sound. Isn't consistent and absolutely isnt impartial.

You use faulty logic and paint opinion as fact. These aren't the traits of someone's opinion worth considering.

Feel free to try again if that ever changes for you though :) :)
 

to_ddeath

Coach
Messages
12,032
Why should we give him 10 rounds next year to see the same crap?
We are slipping down the ladder very fast
But if our goal is only to give him a free holiday to Vegas tHan we should keep him
If things turn further pear-shaped I’d almost half expect him to lean on the Vegas factor as an excuse for at least a month…bloke thus far has been full of empty promises & not much else IMO
 

I'm Hornby

Juniors
Messages
1,141
It's quite simple buddy, a win is a win and a loss is a loss.

You might take some heart that to date there hasn't been as many blow out scores, however that doesn't change the fact that we lost. Low quality squad, fine why hasn't Flanagan been able to change that the past two years? What has he done to change it for next year? It's almost August and we've signed one player.
Not good enough.

Ultimately if you're assertion that we're a really competitive side was correct, we wouldn't be sitting here at this stage of the season with 6 wins and 12 losses.
How did we go against the tigers in magic round?
How about the bunnies in round two, the eels in round 5?
I could go on but the point stands, if we're such a competitive well coached team surely we win all three of those very winnable games and are sitting with 9 wins now and season still alive.

That's the cold hard truth and no amount of your rubbish apologist outlook posts changes this.
-------------------------------------

Dear Mr Im Hornby and Friends (alts)

I said its low-quality analysis to only use context that suits your narrative.

Low-capacity people like you do that.

They lack the ability to look past their bias and take on new information. They lack the ability to hold something in both hands at once and they lack the comprehension to understand nuance.

They also tell people what they know about them instead of asking questions. These are all signs of someone of a lower capacity. I'll let the audience decide how many of those might apply to you.

If youd asked I would have said I have plenty of issue with not only the club but also Shane as a coach. Instead however you told me what you want me to think, which suits your argument. Very assumptive, but more so the sign of a dullard.

"if we're such a competitive well coached team surely we win all three of those very winnable games and are sitting with 9 wins now and season still alive."

Again, never said any of this. I believe we have one of the worst teams in the comp and that includes how they are currently being coached. Youd have known that if you had asked....


I can just apply some critical thought as to why that is the case and not just make things up and move goal posts based on my personal agenda.

Its not being an apologist for thinking Shane (just going to put this here so you dont forget. I have plenty of issue with Shanes coaching but we are gonna try and hold two thoughts at once here ok?) has had a pretty raw deal in regard to CEO, GM and recruitment. I can also acknowledge that Shane has made a lot of mistakes in that space. See we are having more than one thought at a time now how exciting is this :D

My issue with people of your particular style. You find it impossible to even say saints could possibly play a good half of football.

Always explaining it away by saying it was orchestrated by the refs or the other team was having a bad game. That lack of being able to hold your feelings which can still be valid whilst also being able to give props where it is due is why I dont care about what you say.
I question your logic and reasoning which isn't sound. Isn't consistent and absolutely isnt impartial.

You use faulty logic and paint opinion as fact. These aren't the traits of someone's opinion worth considering.

Feel free to try again if that ever changes for you though :) :)
Wow hope you didn't spend too much time typing that nonsense champ.
 

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