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Scrums - the dinosaur of Rugby evolution.

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
To me, the great elephant in the Rugby League room are scrums. They are more obsolete than column shift, typewriter ribbons, or Souths grand final T shirts. The trouble is that no one knows what to do to replace them.

I believe that they are replaceable. They are certainly never to be restored to their former glory - arguably no single act in RL determined the course of a game, either through the old hooker's sucess rate (remember when that was an important stat - someone hooking at 54% was hot property in the off season contract negs). The watering down of the rules into the modern pantomine was largely due to a horrible collapse that left Penrith's John Farrugia in a wheelchair - and from that point we couldnt go back. However, a sudden side benefit was the sudden loss of a myriad of penalties, the incorrect feed, feet across the tunnell, collapsing the scrum, the classic loose arm (and Rex Mossop would always point to the last hooker to get up being the culprit) - and my personal favorite - screwing the scrum.

Union of course had similar problems, but they went the other way - introducing reams of rules and guidelines that no results in referees telling everyone how to do it - and even at World Cup level that average scrum takes 10 tedious minutes when a quick round of paper, scissors, rock would do the trick. Still, that's Union - a game where completeley immersing every participant in the 1870's is the driving factor in the code's existance.

In League - the role of all bar the first 6 jumpers has changed.

  • Hookers are now converted halfbacks (ie Farah), then they were violent stumps (Killer Kearney) that used studs as weapons.
  • Props became hitup merchants (aka Petero) when once they were the hookers protector and the owner of intricate footwork in the contest for the ball (John O'Neill).
  • Second rowers provided thrust and power in scrums (Boyd), now they run menacingly at the opposition halfback and when tackled - lose the ball and appeal to the ref for a strip (Thaiday).
  • Locks used to bind and direct the scrum, and when lost, flatten the opposition halfback (Price). Now they are just the third "back" rower, having lost their title and their speciality (Gallen)
  • Halfbacks were once a scrum feeding expert, and responsible for influencing or decieving referees, while directing forwards in attack and maybe linking to the backs via the 5/8 (Sterling). Now they posess a wide array of passes and kicks and sometimes dont even need a pivot (Thurston)
The game has changed so much because of the change in scrums to the point where it is outdated. Yet it remains. The sole "excuse" - taking the forwards out of play and seeing backs on backs, is bullsh*t when the attacking sides biggest player is usually at 5/8 and runs straight at the defence.

It is time to deal with the elephant in the room. We must get rid of scrums.

And replace it with.................what?
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
You're right. The scrum at the moment is like that derelict heritage building most suburbs and towns have. They put a protective fence around it, everyone says saving it is important, but no one knows what to do within a framework that negates any innovative renovation to give it a new and relevant life.

So, in the meantime, by neglect and lack of any agreed solution, it slowly self demolishes itself to the point where it is beyond all hope of ever being saved.

The RL scrum needs to replaced by a handover, or completely re-imagined and re-invented.
 

God-King Dean

Immortal
Messages
46,614
Now I may be wrong here - but I believe a scrum is an old, old wooden ship, used during the Civil War Era.
 

Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
RL should get rid of them.

Replace them with a play-the-ball.

I know this removes the idea of all of the forwards being offside so the backs can have space. This idea also went out with backs packing in scrums and forwards hitting the ball up from a scrum.

Scrums should go.

So should kicks for touch from penalties.
 

applesauce

Bench
Messages
3,573
An NFL style scrimmage.

4 on 4, 2 lines, any of the 4 with possession can play it back to the hooker and any of the 4 defenders can rush up to get the ball/runner once played.


???

Dunno just trying to come up with something...
 

Cloudsurfer

Juniors
Messages
1,184
An NFL style scrimmage.

4 on 4, 2 lines, any of the 4 with possession can play it back to the hooker and any of the 4 defenders can rush up to get the ball/runner once played.


???

Dunno just trying to come up with something...

I kinda like this idea but not so much as NFL does it. Scrums are a way of restarting the game with one side having the advantage - its a good way of starting off set plays if done correctly. In NFL you don't know what the move is going to be which is the good thing about doing it that way in that game & would be part of the interest in NRL.
For instance, in NRL opposing teams would have to try to figure out the attacking teams set play by who is where etc & have limited time to do that hence the advantage to the attacking team. If everyone is lined up or in their most defensive pattern for whatever the move might be it is up to the attacking team to outsmart/defend them with the seconds they have. I think it could work - would add interest to the set play & not slow the game down beyond what a scrum does now & be a far better spectacle than the rugby-type 'golden oldies' scrums that are part of the game now & where you actually get penalised for having a go at getting a tighthead ffs
 

Easts R #1

Juniors
Messages
336
The scrum has its place in our game! Scrums used to be an opportunity to take the forwards out of the game and good hookers had the opportunity to get posession against the feed! However in todays current system its a waist of time unless; When there is a scrum both packs must pack in, too allow a backs on backs play, or; Scrums become contested and the scrum becomes usefull once again, Its a huge play and union have managed to utilise it very well..
 

WAPAU

Juniors
Messages
189
Great thread Loudstrat.

I guess the answer depends on what effect you want the scrums replacement to have on the game. Straight turn over is the 'simple' option, but then you have to ask if simplification is a good thing or a bad thing.

I'd like to see something that is both simple as well as laying a platform for classical first phase backline moves.
 

VictoryFC

Bench
Messages
3,786
RL should get rid of them.

Replace them with a play-the-ball.

I know this removes the idea of all of the forwards being offside so the backs can have space. This idea also went out with backs packing in scrums and forwards hitting the ball up from a scrum.

Scrums should go.

THIS. They are an absolute nightmare in Union to watch, so painful. But in rugger its a big part of their game. Has no part in League, so just get rid of them. Why go through the trouble?
 

Easts R #1

Juniors
Messages
336
THIS. They are an absolute nightmare in Union to watch, so painful. But in rugger its a big part of their game. Has no part in League, so just get rid of them. Why go through the trouble?
Let it be the time in the game where its backs against backs, forwards must pack in contested or not?? Takes the forwards out of the game..
 

VictoryFC

Bench
Messages
3,786
Let it be the time in the game where its backs against backs, forwards must pack in contested or not?? Takes the forwards out of the game..

Not in the truest sense though. The pack is already breaking off the second the ball is placed. The forwards already have their eyes on the ball and the what the hooker will do before he passes off. Yeah it takes them out, but not for the right reasons. Its a punishment for punishments sake.

I get your argument, and its fine, it'll probably stay as is, but whats point when you see how much contempt players show to the scrum. There was a game a few years back, cant remember which, but they actually attempted to use the scrum to genuinely get a set piece going. Vossy was having an orgasm in the box. But since the game doesn't intend to go back to rugger scrums, why even have them?

Play the ball imo. Its one of Leagues last ugly vestiges from rugger. But then again I dont really care they are a small part of the game so its not that off putting.
 

gUt

Coach
Messages
16,916
Apart from Loudstrat's autistic need to have a go at Thaiday (the world's best second row forward), completely agree with him. Either make scrums an actual contest or get rid of them. They are a f**king laughing stock and a completely pointless exercise. Any idea that it opens the field up for a surprise attacking play is demonstrably not true except within 10 metres of the attacking goal line and sometimes not even then.

If it's true that RL needs to find ways to introduce more ad breaks, following a mistake we could simply stop the clock for 30 seconds, have a quick drink, then restart play with a tap or play the ball. If there's a mistake in the following set of six, just hand it over and start again without the 30 second break.
 

WAPAU

Juniors
Messages
189
Apart from Loudstrat's autistic need to have a go at Thaiday (the world's best second row forward), completely agree with him. Either make scrums an actual contest or get rid of them. They are a f**king laughing stock and a completely pointless exercise. Any idea that it opens the field up for a surprise attacking play is demonstrably not true except within 10 metres of the attacking goal line and sometimes not even then.

If it's true that RL needs to find ways to introduce more ad breaks, following a mistake we could simply stop the clock for 30 seconds, have a quick drink, then restart play with a tap or play the ball. If there's a mistake in the following set of six, just hand it over and start again without the 30 second break.

If they got rid of scrums it would speed the game up meaning they would need more breaks anyway. They could move to 4 quarters - the tv stations would love that.
 

timka4

Bench
Messages
2,505
People are forgetting that scrums provide forwards with a break as well (not obviously the point to scrums, but it's an indirect ploy). With just a quick turn over the game becomes like touch IMO.
Loud's point is right in saying the current scrum situation is a little silly, but a simple turn over imo is not the answer.
And no, I do not know what could be done.
 

gypsy

Bench
Messages
4,248
Good thread.

I think the scrum still has a place in the game. I don't mind them being non contested. IMO if you make a mistake, you don't deserve the ball straight back - It's the price you pay for a mistake.
It also provides the attacking team with a 7 on 7. I'd like to see teams be more inventive on this first play, instead of putting a forward at first receiver, try a set play they've worked on at training. The Dragons occasionally try something a bit out of the ordinary, like a kick on the first, or a big sweeping play...it's great to watch things like that.
The attacking aspects of the NRL have gone downhill so much, there is no invention anymore...the scrum at least provides a platform for some.
 
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anjado

Juniors
Messages
1,092
I used to think scrums were still a part of the game until the last 2-3 years when you have forwards hitting the ball up. There is no point to them now if they are uncontested and teams are still scared of the almighty completion rate. Forwards don't push and backs don't utilize the space it has become a waste of time.

There are advantages to handovers instead of scrums, of course the obvious one is the speed of the game. Another advantage is if a team kicks for the sideline and forces the opposition to bring the ball out from there 10 metre line. Making it a play the ball instead of a scrum it will allow the defensive line to set up and maybe make it harder for opposition teams to make ground and the defence could pin them down in the own 20 metre area. Conversely it might lead to more risk taking by the attacking team to try and get out of that position. Leading to more excitement rather than 5 hit ups and a kick.

That to me is a big advantage over a modern day scrum.
 

Moffo

Referee
Messages
23,986
How about tunnelball? The opposition hooker stands 5 metres away, and when the ref blows his whistle the ball commences it's roll through the legs of the opposition. The hookers objective is to anticipate the roll and get in there to take the ball

Or, scissors paper rock. Could you imagine third man thaiday and Gallen doing it to restate play in origin? :cool:
 

Moffo

Referee
Messages
23,986
Or you could insert an it's a knockout type game in to RL haha. The chicken dash across the field?
 
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