Southern Orcas

[ParraEelsNRL]

Ah, leave poor old dodery Woods alone... He's the funny old Uncle of this Forum. Aside from his despicable class hatred he's pretty harmless and funny.

I love his quote about Rugby union (I assume he was talking about that obscure sport) being "rich and rewarding". I think he got that quote from one of his old Boys Own Annuals from 1956 in which there is a rousing story about Rugger players named Emmett Fotherington-Thomas III and Tobias Spiffington-Mann at St. Cuthberts' Grammar.

I actually miss the old bastard randomly jumping into threads in the international forum, quite amusing.

I say let the old bugger troll till it hurts, he hasn't got long left.

Wow woody, thats two people on your side, get one more and it's a fan club :lol:

 

[Coaster]

I dont understand why it couldnt work?

The Reds get to fly to South Africa ect and what support do they have? other than Murdoch.

I think this is a great idea, and hope it gets off the ground. This game is just to good to be trapped in such a small area.

 

[colonel_123]

There'd surely be plenty of sponsors willing to jump at the possibility of having their product exposed in England, France, New Zealand and Australia.

The logistics are of course very difficult to see past. But I agree with Brendo, it's the sort of forward thinking rugby league needs.

Also re: players, I'm sure there would be plenty of New Zealand players currently based in the Superleague comp who'd jump at the opportunity to play for a NZ based team.

 

[Quidgybo]

Since when is it the NRL's responsibility to boost the NZRL, by putting another nrl franchise in nz ??

Well now you bring it up, it's not the NRL's responsibility to boost the game in Australia either. That's the ARL's job. But it is the NRL's responsibility to run a successful and profitable first class RL competition in the regions governed by the ARL *and* NZRL. And given that NZ is the third biggest RL market in that area (after NSW and QLD) it'd seem kinda strange to not make the most of it.

Leigh.

 

[thommo4pm]

This could work.
It's a great proposal and I hope it gets off the ground.
Union would sh*t itself if this happens, as the International game will grow again to a new level.

 

[Quidgybo]

Problem being that four different teams would spend 48 hours on planes (and that isn't allowing for delays etc) in the course of a weekend to play the Orcas in Wellington.

Well actually it'd be 11 or 13 different teams doing that. But the key word is "different". Each visiting team would only have to do the away trip once per *year*. The fact that Wigan make the trip the very next weekend after Leeds have made it I would suggest is largely irrelevant to the Rhinos. The vast majority of the travel burden would be the Orcas. If they are cool with it and can provide guarantees they can fund it without going broke mid season, what's the problem?

Leigh.

 

[t-ba]

The Everley Brothers said it best. "Dream, dream, dream, dream; dream, dream".

I think it's important for RL to have high aspirations. Since SANZAR will probably collapse at the next TV rights negotiations, It's important for us to pick at the corpse of Australian Onion, and another franchise in New Zealand will be just the treat. Given a choice between earning a few hundred thou and staying in NZ or playing in some town in Devon for some coin, what do you think the Kiwi Rugger Buggers will select?

New Zealand are currently the leading nation in an internationally recognised, rich, and rewarding sport.

Don't Worry Woodsy, We'll make good account of the Silver Ferns during the next test series. Clubs like Bath, Newcastle, Borders and Tarbes certainly don't seem very rich either...

Why would they bother footing the bill for a second-rate team in an insular competition?

Rupert Murdoch must wonder that every time he looks at the adysmal ratings for the S14 Woodsy.

It's insanity, for sure. But if some Beligan Billionare wants to blow a somewhere in the low eight figures convincing the NRL his club should be in our comp, I am all for it. It's what Millionares do these days. It'd certainly be a better investment than Dave Whelan's work with Orrell.

I'm also waiting for those Attendance, Tv Viewership Audience and Registered player figures of RU's that are '10-20 times' the size of Rugby Leagues.

 

[Nugby]

I think this'd be good for the game as a whole. F*ck I'm glad that League's got a salary cap though, as League wouldn't be fun with an English Billionaire turning a Kiwi team into the next Chelsea. Still at risk of being the next *cough* under the table *cough* Roosters though.

One thing is though, if the team seriously wanted to join the NRL from the ESL down the track, it's going to need to have a serious purge of players at some point to go from around 4.5M a year salary cap to one way under 4M when they swap to the NRL.

 

[yosh64]

This wont make it off the ground. Already the superleague chairman is playing down the chance of it happening, "The idea has been mentioned but I can't see how it could possibly work. I asked them to give us some details and I haven't heard anything since."
Some people think that sponsors would be excited to get money into a product that has viewing in australia, England, france and nz. I ask who? It doesn’t help engage mutual (the superleague sponsor), we don’t see any French firms putting money into superleague or NZ firms putting money into NRL just Vodafone sponsoring the Warriors. Sure you could get some more money from broadcasting it. NRL gets $12m for the warriors and that’s with a team in rugby league heartland of NZ. BRW calculates that the warriors had revenue of $9m last year while also stating that North Queensland had revenue of $10.7m and only made a small profit of $200,000 - $500,000 last year. NQ had bigger crowds (19,000 for NQ – 9,000 for NZ) and didn’t have to travel across the world through the season. Imagine the cost of flying 17 – 18 players and support staff from NZ to England on a regular basis. Air New Zealand was charging $2900 return one person economy, even with them supporting the team it wouldn’t be free, maybe half price $30,000 for 20 people. Then add in hotel charges, especially if they choose to stay over there for more than one game. Plus the salary cap is higher which means that player payments are a higher cost.

Its not going to be a financial success, the club will fail and that will be the end of people wanting to invest in creating a Wellington team in any comp. Junior numbers aren’t great yet in the area so money needs to be put into building up support for the grassroots leagues. News ltd put $6m into the Melbourne Storm last year with some of that going to supporting the growth of the game in Melbourne over its dominant sport, AFL. In Wellington it is Union and supposedly the A-league has the Wellington Phoenix as well. Without News’s money Storm wouldn’t be viable.

Sponsors want public support, teams with greater support get more money, ie, Brisbane, Newcastle, st george are the top teams by value according to BRW.
And what about English teams opposed to the cost for them to fly to NZ and the jet lag they get. Or the jet lag that the NZ team will have to overcome when playing after a flight. Jet lag is brought up as a negative for the broncos loss in the WCC. If the team had to beat these challenges as well as win on the field it may create a very tough away trip. And how does the NZ public stay interested with games being played in the morning local time or even take notice of a competition on the other side of the world when they have both Union (super 14) and NRL to watch and support local teams on a weekly basis at home.

The question should be, should they be admitted into the NRL? Or should both they and Perth be admitted (since everyone seems to think that’s the next place that should be admitted)?

If they and the NZRL put some money and effort into the region, grassroots and increasing league followers, there would be a viable team ready to play in the NRL.

Excerpt By STEVE KILGALLON - Sunday Star Times

However, long-time Wellington league stalwart Ken Laban, who organised the original 1991 bid for a Hutt Valley team to join the then Winfield Cup, was scathing.
"My initial reaction is I think it is ridiculous," Laban declared. "Why would you bring Huddersfield, Wakefield and Warrington to Westpac Stadium when you can get Brisbane, Newcastle and the Melbourne Storm?"
As with others told of the plan, Laban questioned the travel, costs and time-zone issues which would be difficult to resolve and said while Wellingtonians were well aware of NRL stars' identities, they would struggle to name any player in the lower-ranked Super League teams. "They would be regarded as a novelty factor, and you would go if they were successful ... but if they weren't, it would be a hard sell," he said. Laban said he felt the last NRL bid had "credibility issues" given the anonymity of their backer - who is once again protecting his identity.
One of Wellington's most prominent NRL exports, former Canberra and Cowboys prop Johnny Lomax - now coaching the city's under-16 rep side -said halting the decline of the local game was more important.

 

[brendothejet]

i feel I'm fighting this battle on several fronts as the thread is running across 3 forums.

As Leigh has said, the majority of the burden is on Wellington and if they are happy with that and can see it being viable let them.

AS I have said a number of times if the NRL and ESL came out tommorrow and told the Southern Orcas and Tolouse they would be joining ESL in 2009 with the Orcas joing the Western Australia Reds in the NRL in 2013 with the Celtic Crusaders coming to ESL in place of the Orcas these teams would have the time to build fanbases, player bases, corporate structures, brand names and images, juniors, local community support, international sponsors and the best possible chance at succeeding.

Rugby League was born of inovation. Why the hell are we so scared of it now? a touch over 100 years ago a few people decided the way things were weren't right and that there was a better way to play, a way to make football a part of life.

The Southern Orcas would be a sporting world first. They would have access to markets in Australia, New Zealand, England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Russia and France facing possible oponents from all of these countries.

This team would be great for the growth of RL in the world and would let people know we are not afraid to put faith in our product and continue to innovate new ways to develop it.

 

[nqboy]

It's the drain from flying 24-30 hours across the world and home again every few weeks, coupled with the time required to get over jetlag each way, living out of suitcases in hotels while they miss their loved ones, coupled with the loss of recovery and training time due to the travel. Good on them for dreaming but I don't believe it is possible for elite athletes to perform consistently under such conditions and Brendo's dreamy posts have not provided any remedy to these problems.

 

[Woods99]

Ah, leave poor old dodery Woods alone... He's the funny old Uncle of this Forum. Aside from his despicable class hatred he's pretty harmless and funny.

I love his quote about Rugby union (I assume he was talking about that obscure sport) being "rich and rewarding". I think he got that quote from one of his old Boys Own Annuals from 1956 in which there is a rousing story about Rugger players named Emmett Fotherington-Thomas III and Tobias Spiffington-Mann at St. Cuthberts' Grammar.

Gee, thanks. Incidentally, is that a former Wallaby I see? Ray Price?


My dad was a labourer, and I only finished high school because I won a bursary for poor students. I have never voted Liberal in my life. Which class should I hate?


For an "obscure sport", rugby union has been a very rewarding one for a lot of ex-players, including me. Check out the incidence of ex-rugby players in the professions and business, and compare with the proportion of ex-players from any other winter sport of your choice.

 

[t-ba]

For an "obscure sport", rugby union has been a very rewarding one for a lot of ex-players, including me. Check out the incidence of ex-rugby players in the professions and business, and compare with the proportion of ex-players from any other winter sport of your choice.

Why don't you produce some evidence instead of speaking some well worn homilies that have been torn to shreds on here before because of your inability to actually substantiate your claims? Hell, I'd even like to see some actual anecdotal evidence, but even that seems beyond you.

Also:

Average Annual Aggregate Attendance (Club, Provincial, International)
Average Anuual TV Viewership
Total Registered Players

Lead me to the stats that show RU is 10-20 times larger on these measures.

 

[Woods99]

I actually miss the old bastard randomly jumping into threads in the international forum, quite amusing.

I say let the old bugger troll till it hurts, he hasn't got long left.

Wow woody, thats two people on your side, get one more and it's a fan club :lol:

Parra Eels,

You must have a good memory. I was banned from the International section a long time ago.

Incidentally, I did not receive any kind of warning before the banning, nor did I receive any explanation as to why I was banned.

I do not recall using bad language, or insults, or debating tricks. Just plain simple logic and fact - but that seems to have been a banning offence.

Finally, I am sure that I will out-live Everlasting Antacid, who is certain to implode in the act of venting his considerable spleen hereabouts.

 

[t-ba]

It's clear you were banned because you were a troll who never bothered to substantiate his claims.

Average Annual Aggregate Attendance (Club, Provincial, International)
Average Anuual TV Viewership
Total Registered Players

Go on, do it. If it's so obvious, it's should be easy to prove.

 

[ocko]

maybe the most geniused idea in history

 

[brendothejet]

maybe the most geniused idea in history

more geniused than splitting the Australian comp in two, driving player prices through the roof, tearing apart traditional clubs, abandoning clubs in foreign outposts to the wolves?

I don't think so. Maybe you should read this thread and others on the subject and think about the possibilities and imlpications this has for Rugby League before you make possibly the most geniused comment in history.

RL clubs are so desperate to play at Elite Levels we have teams from Western Australia playing in the NSWRL, teams from France and Wales competing in the English premierships, and now a team willing to fly to the other side of the world to take part at the highest level.

That says to me that there is a want and a drive to play rugby league and to play it at the highest level.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing about a desire to play RL and play it well that is geniused.

 

[ocko]

i'm not saying the idea of wanting to play rl is geniused brendo. i'm saying the idea of having a team on the other side of the world in a competition is just not feasible. they should focus on something more realistic. there is no comparison between having a welsh/french side in a pommy comp, or even a perth side in a sydney comp for that matter, and having a nz side in a pommy comp.

 

[brendothejet]

i'm not saying the idea of wanting to play rl is geniused brendo. i'm saying the idea of having a team on the other side of the world in a competition is just not feasible. they should focus on something more realistic. there is no comparison between having a welsh/french side in a pommy comp, or even a perth side in a sydney comp for that matter, and having a nz side in a pommy comp.

so you'd agree that it is not the most geniused idea ever?

Look a few people in the international section have been nutting this out and there are some very feasable ways to do it.

1) NZ play 3-4 away games in england/france and then return home to play 3-4 home matches.

Originally posted by AlbertRosenfield in International Forum

I have called the airlines. Just a little comparison on flying times:


For the Wellington Super 14 rugby union team flying Air NZ to South Africa to play: (Sydney-Johannesburg is 14 hours 10 minutes nonstop but Air NZ does not fly non stop to South Africa. Auckland-Sydney is 3 hrs 20 mins plus an hour layover. Wellington to Auckland is an hour plus an hour layover).

Wellington to Johannesburg: 20 hours

For the Orcas to play Super League in the M62 corridor:
Wellington to London on Air NZ is 24 hours 30 minutes, including 2 hour layover in Los Angeles. Plus one hour layover in London and one hour flight to Manchester.

Wellington to Manchester: 26 hours 30 minutes.

So for the rah rahs, who are less fit than the Orcas, it is feasible.

Cost of one business class seat return Wellington to London: 3,255 pounds or NZ$9,000. Total cost of 20 players plus coaching staff of four plus CEO and Chairman: NZ$234,000 .

Cost for travel 4 times a year: NZ$936,000 (plus accommodation for three and a half months or more).

If Air NZ pays for the trips in return for sponsorship rights, cost = NZ$0

So the flight is only 6 hours longer than the longest S14 flight and is not that expensive.

Every time the team leaves for a trip you have a big marketing opportunity to send them off. Everytime they return you get to welcome them home.

These equal big home crowds.

Much the same as people outside of Auckland follow the warriors there is no reason why everyone can't follow the Orcas. The general profile of RL rises in NZ and people have more to follow.

It is not uncommon for NZders to follow their local union team, a S14 franchise and the Warriors.

NZ love beating Aussies and they love beating the Poms. The Orcas and the Warriors give them the chance to do that on the same weekend!

Imagine the two teams working together. running Rugby league weekends in various parts of the country, encouraging fans and players alike to bond under the same brotherhood of NZRL. It is such a magnificent idea with unlimited potential.

Lets take the Warriors and the Orcas matches to Christchurch for the weekend. Play one on friday night and one on saturday night. throw a double header.

have a game in auckland and a game in wellington, friday night and Sunday afternoon. Have both teams attend each others matches. cross promote.

This is a marketing, development and promotional dream.

The logistics of this venture are not that difficult. The globe is a very small thing and getting to the other side of it is just too darn small an issue to throw this whole thing in the bin.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Parra Eels,

You must have a good memory. I was banned from the International section a long time ago.

Incidentally, I did not receive any kind of warning before the banning, nor did I receive any explanation as to why I was banned.

I do not recall using bad language, or insults, or debating tricks. Just plain simple logic and fact - but that seems to have been a banning offence.

Finally, I am sure that I will out-live Everlasting Antacid, who is certain to implode in the act of venting his considerable spleen hereabouts.

If it were up to me, you'd be posting in there still.

Trolls help keep forums ticking over, as long as they don't break the rules, whats the problem?