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State of origin 2025

betcats

Referee
Messages
24,307
Nathan will probably get his dues after he retires. Once Johns hung up the boots the majority of people only ever remembered him walking on water. No one talks about Gus basically having to threaten him to get the lauded 2005 Origin performance over the line.


I mean i get re Johns and even JT in terms of the robotic argument when comparing, but that robotic style doesnt mean he doesnt read the game, he is just less flashy, less risky, more controlled. JT and Johns were capable of of things Nathan isnt capable of in terms of those flashy highlight plays and a dominant individual performance. But years after they've they retired people only remember them playing at their very best. Like both those guys lost a lot more than nathan has, if they were so able to dominate games at will why didnt they do it more often?
 

soc123_au

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,313
I mean i get re Johns and even JT in terms of the robotic argument when comparing, but that robotic style doesnt mean he doesnt read the game, he is just less flashy, less risky, more controlled. JT and Johns were capable of of things Nathan isnt capable of in terms of those flashy highlight plays and a dominant individual performance. But years after they've they retired people only remember them playing at their very best. Like both those guys lost a lot more than nathan has, if they were so able to dominate games at will why didnt they do it more often?
Pretty much, 3.5 premierships between them in completed careers, Nath 4 and counting.

It's not like they played with Mugs their entire careers either. There were some very handy players around them, especially at the Knights in that era.
 

Oldpanther86

Juniors
Messages
474
There is the other side as well. Does Nathan not get credit for game 2 which would've been the biggest comeback in origin history if not for lomax missing the kicks.
 

soc123_au

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,313
There is the other side as well. Does Nathan not get credit for game 2 which would've been the biggest comeback in origin history if not for lomax missing the kicks.
Thats all media bullshit. I get they have to say something and create commentary and discussion, but it amazes me how seriously people take it and lap it up.

It's on no way unique to Origin either. Pick just about any game you like, the team that wins performed brilliantly, star player was a 9 out of 10 blah blah blah, team that lost by a point on conversions or penalty goals are rudderless, coach under pressure, star player not earning his pay packet etc etc.

Even players who rarely cop it are affected, To'o for example in Origin, his media player rating jumps a point or 2 if we had won game 2. His performance had f**k all to do with Nathan not being able to kick and Lomax having an off night with the boot. No one bagged To'o obviously, and most said he was great, but then still rated him a 7 when he would have been a 9 with a win for the exact same performance. I'm sure To'o couldn't care less, but I just find it funny, and this is just an example that shows how the narrative on games is mostly dribble.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
24,307
Look Nathan doesnt deserve credit for this series, he flopped overall im not denying that. I just think the coverage around his origin legacy is very harsh, Game 3 would be the worst origin performance he has easily. That is being compared against the best that Johns or JT served up in their careers.

Nathan has dominant origin performance's. MOTM performance's where he has carved QLD up, he just hasnt done it in a game 3 or anything like that, it hasnt had that origin folklore story to go with it and live on in the orgin memory.
 
Messages
4,647
Pretty much, 3.5 premierships between them in completed careers, Nath 4 and counting.

It's not like they played with Mugs their entire careers either. There were some very handy players around them, especially at the Knights in that era.
Completely agree with this, that Newcastle team in particular was stacked. But the irony of the digs at Nathan is that if people held Thurston and Johns to the same standard, they should have won premierships even if the were playing with mugs.

I agree that you will need to wait till after your career to be viewed with perspective. I think people are going to scratch their head and ask how this team was so dominant. Look, I love all the guys but this isn’t a team that should be historically dominant; really only Nathan and To’o (and potentially Yeo) are really going to be viewed as generational players, and even To’o is going to be remembered for his stats than his play.
 

soc123_au

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,313
Completely agree with this, that Newcastle team in particular was stacked. But the irony of the digs at Nathan is that if people held Thurston and Johns to the same standard, they should have won premierships even if the were playing with mugs.

I agree that you will need to wait till after your career to be viewed with perspective. I think people are going to scratch their head and ask how this team was so dominant. Look, I love all the guys but this isn’t a team that should be historically dominant; really only Nathan and To’o (and potentially Yeo) are really going to be viewed as generational players, and even To’o is going to be remembered for his stats than his play.
You are underselling Yeo I think.
 

Pomoz

Bench
Messages
3,054
Completely agree with this, that Newcastle team in particular was stacked. But the irony of the digs at Nathan is that if people held Thurston and Johns to the same standard, they should have won premierships even if the were playing with mugs.

I agree that you will need to wait till after your career to be viewed with perspective. I think people are going to scratch their head and ask how this team was so dominant. Look, I love all the guys but this isn’t a team that should be historically dominant; really only Nathan and To’o (and potentially Yeo) are really going to be viewed as generational players, and even To’o is going to be remembered for his stats than his play.
I agree with this. Our team doesn't stand out because it is not flashy. There is no Renouf or Brett Mullins with scintillating speed. The team doesn't do length of field tries like the best Broncos teams, it doesn't have players that were considered the best ever like Bradley Clyde, or, Wally Lewis. Our halfback doesn't do flashy plays like JT or Johns.

Our forwards aren't brash, aggressive nutters like JWH. They smile as they cut you in half. Their toughness is completely unnoticed by everybody because our players are humble when they hurt you.

We aren't seen as tough and we aren't seen as flashy. "Relentless" probably sums up the opposition fans view. I think that is probably about right. Relentless at God level.

In my view, what this team has that stands it apart is exactly that, "relentless intensity". QLD showed that quality in Game 3 and it unravelled NSW. But I have never seen any other club team play with the intensity of the Panthers. It literally sucks the life out of the other teams. In one game against the Raiders, they didn't cross the halfway line until the 70 minute mark and that was only because we gave away a penalty. Intensity.

The opposition can go with the pace for 60 minutes and then like the boxer copping body shots for the first five rounds, the legs start to go and then we usually finish them off with late tries. That said, intensity doesn't translate to highlight reels as well as Renouf swerving past three defenders on the way to the try line.

The come back against the Broncos was only possible because in the first half we smashed the Broncos relentlessly, once the game started to turn they had nothing left. Intensity. The Eels were literally demolished by one of the finest displays of forward dominance ever seen. We had shut up shop in the second half otherwise it could have been one of the biggest thrashings in GF history. Intensity. The Storm last year were scoring tries for fun, but in the GF, they were stifled by our defence. Intensity.

Maybe that will be how we are viewed. Relentless. Intense. Legendary fitness levels. Ok, its not box office like the Broncos and Raiders, but it is something to be proud of. Those teams were good, but we have proven we are better.
 

Munky

Coach
Messages
13,238
Maybe. Love the guy, super consistent and does everything well, but not sure I see anything that would put him at the levels of a Price, Clyde or even JT (at his 3-4 year peak).

His 2024 was one of the all time great forward seasons.

Gus said multiple times in his podcast/TV commitments he was the best player in the comp during the year.

Proved it with a ridiculous grand final with 233 metres including some amazing late charges when the Storm were having a good defensive set.

Averaged over 200m a game in the finals against the rest of the top 4 with only six missed tackles. Four of the misses were in the GF but that was one of the quickest games ever played.

Regular season he was the best player on the park for Penrith every game.
 

martielang

Bench
Messages
3,580
I actually think one of Clearys biggest issues, especially during SOO, is that he doesn’t know how good he is. Seems to play well within himself. Sure he was injured during SOO3 but didn't once see him throw up anything other than an end over end bomb, nor did he kick early in the set looking for a 40/20. He nails those kicks 4/5 times, comfortably more than any other player in the game, back yourself lad.
 

BxTom

Bench
Messages
2,711
I actually think one of Clearys biggest issues, especially during SOO, is that he doesn’t know how good he is. Seems to play well within himself. Sure he was injured during SOO3 but didn't once see him throw up anything other than an end over end bomb, nor did he kick early in the set looking for a 40/20. He nails those kicks 4/5 times, comfortably more than any other player in the game, back yourself lad.
He wasn't taking conversions, so his kicking was obviously hampered.
 

Sime_11

Juniors
Messages
1,878
His 2024 was one of the all time great forward seasons.

Gus said multiple times in his podcast/TV commitments he was the best player in the comp during the year.

Proved it with a ridiculous grand final with 233 metres including some amazing late charges when the Storm were having a good defensive set.

Averaged over 200m a game in the finals against the rest of the top 4 with only six missed tackles. Four of the misses were in the GF but that was one of the quickest games ever played.

Regular season he was the best player on the park for Penrith every game.
Yeo carried us in 2024 - if we lost Yeo - we dont make top 4 and we dont dominate finals
 

The Realist

Juniors
Messages
2,162
If the NRL had a Finals MVP award Yeo would have gotten it easily.

I know that Marto came up with some big time plays in the 2024 GF but geez I thought Yeo was hard done by to not get the CCM.
 
Messages
4,647
If the NRL had a Finals MVP award Yeo would have gotten it easily.

I know that Marto came up with some big time plays in the 2024 GF but geez I thought Yeo was hard done by to not get the CCM.
That is an example of my broader point. The people that gets the awards often have moments that people recall over time.
 

age.s

First Grade
Messages
8,524
Completely agree with this, that Newcastle team in particular was stacked. But the irony of the digs at Nathan is that if people held Thurston and Johns to the same standard, they should have won premierships even if the were playing with mugs.

I agree that you will need to wait till after your career to be viewed with perspective. I think people are going to scratch their head and ask how this team was so dominant. Look, I love all the guys but this isn’t a team that should be historically dominant; really only Nathan and To’o (and potentially Yeo) are really going to be viewed as generational players, and even To’o is going to be remembered for his stats than his play.
I too wonder if anyone will ever be able to accurately rate this squad. We have watched them religiously these past 4 years and even we struggle to do it.

In short, I dont think Nathan has played with mugs this decade. Perhaps not the most stacked roster in history. Perhaps a whole greater than the sum of its parts. Perhaps individuals with unorthodox strengths. But mugs? Yeo. Crichton. Kikau. Api. Bizza. Luai. Fish. Dyl. Many more. We can't label these guys mugs in any sense of the word.
 

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