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Superthread LXXIII: Honouring He Who Shall Not Be Named

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whall15

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Yay, the Parra forum has continued to deliver with the Hayne thread turning to a discussion about whether Jesus is real or not, which of course I bought into because a post randomly saying that ancient prophesy disproves evolution is to me what a red rag is to a bull.

Towards the end I may have gone overboard, calling Jesus a convicted terrorist and asking for some eyewitness testimony of the integrity of Mary's hymen.
 

Drew-Sta

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Why is it ok for you to say that? I mean, whether you believe in it or not - why belittle people over it?
 

whall15

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Why is it ok for you to say that? I mean, whether you believe in it or not - why belittle people over it?

It was contextual. I was using hyperbole to make a point in the first instance that there would likely be contemporary historical evidence of a somewhat notable local figure returning from the dead and in the second instance to show that there was no eyewitness testimony of the virgin part of the virgin birth.

Plus it was in response to the mocking tone of the first sentence of the post that it is somehow self-evident that not only a god, but yours exist and to somehow miss all of the 'evidence' makes someone implicitly stupid.

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showpost.php?p=10997161&postcount=2532
 

Drew-Sta

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It was contextual. I was using hyperbole to make a point in the first instance that there would likely be contemporary historical evidence of a somewhat notable local figure returning from the dead and in the second instance to show that there was no eyewitness testimony of the virgin part of the virgin birth.

Plus it was in response to the mocking tone of the first sentence of the post that it is somehow self-evident that not only a god, but yours exist and to somehow miss all of the 'evidence' makes someone implicitly stupid.

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showpost.php?p=10997161&postcount=2532

There is consensus Jesus existed, and some evidence that He returned from the grave; it is contentious because, frankly, people pull up from believing that Jesus did in fact return from the dead. Its claim is one that makes people say 'yay' or 'nay' not 'maybe'.

The 'testing' of a virginity claim is ridiculous. You're requesting a 21st century scientific approach be applied to a 1st century scenario that is historical. Its like asking for there to be video proof that Homer penned The Iliad, and if you don't have that produced, then the claim is somehow debunked.

The tone of his post wasn't mocking, BTW. It seems the red rag is actually religion, and you're distorting the post to suit your need to bludgeon the guy with your perceived intellectual superiority.

At least be honest about that. And try not to be so condescending.
 

Misanthrope

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Why is it ok for you to say that? I mean, whether you believe in it or not - why belittle people over it?

I was in agreement until the bit about Mary's hymen integrity. I mean, at the time, Jesus could be considered a terrorist by the Romans even though he was largely non-violent.

Reza Aslan has a fantastic book about Jesus as a historical figure. He's not claiming to know one way or the other about the divinity of Jesus or the miracles - just commenting on his role as a person who did exist and how he might have affected the world he lived in.

Really recommend it.
 

Drew-Sta

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I was in agreement until the bit about Mary's hymen integrity. I mean, at the time, Jesus could be considered a terrorist by the Romans even though he was largely non-violent.

How exactly is he a terrorist? The guy came and said 'love your enemies', healed a bunch of people, fed people advocated for human rights, suggested the rich take care of the poor and then got strung up and executed on false charges in the most graphic and painful way possible.

Exactly how does that define him as a terrorist? Serious question.

Reza Aslan has a fantastic book about Jesus as a historical figure. He's not claiming to know one way or the other about the divinity of Jesus or the miracles - just commenting on his role as a person who did exist and how he might have affected the world he lived in.

Really recommend it.

I will look for it :)
 

whall15

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My point was to demonstrate that eyewitness testimony is inferior to modern scientific evidence. You are right that I do have a problem with religion and it is a significant problem as it is and has been an unnecessary and detrimental influence on humanity.

On your point about a perceived intellectual superiority, again I was probably somewhat excessive in the final paragraph but I don't think it is reflected in the remainder of the post. Both "something can't come from nothing" and "everything's complex therefore god" create scenarios where there would have to be endless sequences of gods in order for the argument to remain intellectually consistent. Pointing that out is not a sense of perceived intellectual superiority but is mere logic.
 

whall15

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How exactly is he a terrorist? The guy came and said 'love your enemies', healed a bunch of people, fed people advocated for human rights, suggested the rich take care of the poor and then got strung up and executed on false charges in the most graphic and painful way possible.

Exactly how does that define him as a terrorist? Serious question.



I will look for it :)

I was referring to terrorist in the sense that he was prosecuted as an enemy of the state, I wasn't personally casting a moral judgment on him as I don't have major issues philosophically with Jesus, beyond a few things like his endorsement of slavery which is probably to be expected of a man of his time which serves to only demonstrate that he was a man and not some kind of perfect deity.
 

Drew-Sta

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My point was to demonstrate that eyewitness testimony is inferior to modern scientific evidence.

Yet it is still used in a court of law.

"That guy shot the victim." Its valid, and probably more powerful than scientific knowledge. Secondly, oral tradition and history in general is founded on eyewitness testimony. If you throw it out, most of the history we know of is removed as well. Baby and bathwater type scenario.

You are right that I do have a problem with religion and it is a significant problem as it is and has been an unnecessary and detrimental influence on humanity.

Go have a read about Christianity and the source of human rights. I have no doubt you'll disagree with it but the truth is there. Its clear you won't be convinced, but at least do your due diligence.

On your point about a perceived intellectual superiority, again I was probably somewhat excessive in the final paragraph but I don't think it is reflected in the remainder of the post. Both "something can't come from nothing" and "everything's complex therefore god" create scenarios where there would have to be endless sequences of gods in order for the argument to remain intellectually consistent. Pointing that out is not a sense of perceived intellectual superiority but is mere logic.

The guy was using simplistic arguments that are inadequate. I get that. Rubbishing him for not being across the reams of argument and philosophy (or science) is my issue.

You would do far better reading other sides of the story and some better philosophers to give no credence to his viewpoint.
 

Drew-Sta

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I was referring to terrorist in the sense that he was prosecuted as an enemy of the state, I wasn't personally casting a moral judgment on him as I don't have major issues philosophically with Jesus, beyond a few things like his endorsement of slavery which is probably to be expected of a man of his time which serves to only demonstrate that he was a man and not some kind of perfect deity.

In your view of the word I'd accept He probably was, but recoil from using it due to the nature of the word.

Secondly, go do some research on slavery in the 1st century. Its indentured servantry, like Victorian England's servant system rather than race based ownership of the 13th to 18th centuries.
 

Misanthrope

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How exactly is he a terrorist? The guy came and said 'love your enemies', healed a bunch of people, fed people advocated for human rights, suggested the rich take care of the poor and then got strung up and executed on false charges in the most graphic and painful way possible.

Exactly how does that define him as a terrorist? Serious question.

The book answers this quite well. Our main source of 'evidence' regarding Jesus as an individual was written by his followers and as a result, is always going to cast him in a positive light compared to how he might have been portrayed by the Romans prior to their acceptance of his religion.

Pontius Pilate as a historical figure showed no evidence of ever being the kind of guy who would let the people choose who to execute, for example. This was likely something the Romans had changed years later to portray them in a better light and to cast the Jews in a worse light.

Jesus was a Jewish freedom fighter existing in a Roman controlled state that was at the time putting down similar religious figures with brutality. His story is the best known for obvious reasons, but he was not the only Jew fighting for Jewish rights or preaching a new angle on the religion. He was just the one whose followers told his story loudest and most widely.

Whether or not he was the actual Son of God is an entirely different story, but at the time he'd have been viewed as a terrorist. He may have preached positive messages, but he also preached it at odds with the Roman occupation and at odds with the existing Jewish hierarchy.

And let's not forget, he did use violence on at least one occasion as documented in the Bible. He tore through a temple throwing market stalls aside and raving at those who ran them.
 

whall15

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I was in agreement until the bit about Mary's hymen integrity. I mean, at the time, Jesus could be considered a terrorist by the Romans even though he was largely non-violent.

Reza Aslan has a fantastic book about Jesus as a historical figure. He's not claiming to know one way or the other about the divinity of Jesus or the miracles - just commenting on his role as a person who did exist and how he might have affected the world he lived in.

Really recommend it.

I saw an interview with Aslan. It amazes me how he freely admits that he picks and chooses from the Qu'ran and the Hadith to basically pick his own religion in order to fit his own modern worldview. It would seem easier and better to just form your own worldview independently of the text completely.
 
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