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Surely it is time for the NRL.....

Billythekid

First Grade
Messages
6,734
Potential. The most misused word in expansion threads.

Surely Tokyo has more potential still?

The storm are already worth far more to the game then the sharks right now. So you can ignore the growth we're seeing in Melbourne if you want but the storm are still more valuable to the NRL.

Your example doesn't fit at all either. Obviously Tokyo is a very different market with very different interests and factors such as distance make it an impossibility.

We have already demonstrated that there is a very real interest for the NRL in Melbourne. That plus it is in the same country and not having a presence there is going to have a big impact on the NRL's ability to attract sponsorship and tv dollars.

As for the Pay TV - how many Melburnians fork out for Pay TV to watch the Storm compared to watching AFL?

About 12% of 1/4 of 3/5 of sweet f*ck all.

Storm games rate pretty damn well on fox so i would say there is quite a bit of interest. Foxtel also makes money off advertising now not just subscriptions, so the high rating storm games would be bringing them good money.

Also the storm don't have to pull in as many subscribers as the AFL in Melbourne to be valuable.

If news ltd didn't see value in the storm i don't think they would have pumped that much money into them.
 

Loudstrat

Coach
Messages
15,224
The storm are not growing in popularity. And to suggest they are better contributors than Cronulla is on shaky ground as you only have your Pay TV argument. You mentioned juniors before - and that word "potential". When will Melbourne actually produce that potential?

The whole argument againt Cronulla is crowds and finances based. Melbourne is propped up by News, Cronulla aint. Melbourne win 70% of their games, Cronulla certainly don't. Yet, Melbourne's shiny new stadium and minor premiership, against Cronulla's spoons, only tip the scales marginally Melbournes way in terms of crowds.

Against the average Sydney club, Melbourne's performance is crap. Yet no one suggests Melbourne be punted for another expansion side. That is my point.
 

Yosemite Sam

Juniors
Messages
761
No approval and there will be 15 teams. Simple really

Not really.... the NRL would bail them out. No team is going to fold, the image of the NRL would take a big hit if this were to happen, not to mention the embarrassment and negative publicity the code would have to endure. The negatives would far outweigh the positives for the NRL if Cronulla folded.

All 16 clubs are here to stay.
 

Billythekid

First Grade
Messages
6,734
The storm are not growing in popularity.

I think they are.

And to suggest they are better contributors than Cronulla is on shaky ground as you only have your Pay TV argument.

Bullsh*t. The storm have also led to the NRL being able to get fairly significant ratings for SOO, GF's and international games in Melbourne.

The storm being in the game is much more valuable to the NRL than the sharks being in the game. Hell the storm are more valuable to the NRL than probably any individual Sydney club. The fact that you even consider the sharks more important shows how insular and delusional you are.

You mentioned juniors before - and that word "potential". When will Melbourne actually produce that potential?

Well in a way it's already happening as junior numbers have increased in Melbourne by a decent amount. If you mean when will we see Victorian born players in the NRL well it shouldn't be too long seeing that there is one playing for the Australian school boys. There are a few who look like they will make it soon.

The whole argument againt Cronulla is crowds and finances based. Melbourne is propped up by News, Cronulla aint. Melbourne win 70% of their games, Cronulla certainly don't. Yet, Melbourne's shiny new stadium and minor premiership, against Cronulla's spoons, only tip the scales marginally Melbournes way in terms of crowds.

Again the storm are not propped up by news ltd in the way that you imply. The storm bring in more revenue than the sharks. The extra money from news ltd just allows the club to spend like the broncos. Without this money the storm would still be better off than the sharks.

I already said the storms crowds have been disappointing and hopefully they will improve (i'm confident they will). That doesn't make the sharks better off financially or more valuable to the NRL.

Against the average Sydney club, Melbourne's performance is crap. Yet no one suggests Melbourne be punted for another expansion side. That is my point.

Yes and your point doesn't make sense. Melbourne are worth far more to the NRL than the average Sydney club and that's why no one suggests they should be punted.
 

Vic Mackey

Referee
Messages
25,283
geographically the two sydney teams to relocate should be the dogs and sharks

the shire is too small an area to support a national sporting team and no one outside of it supports or cares about the sharks.

the dogs dont represent an area of sydney, all their 'locals' would justjump ship and go start riots at dragons/tigers/eels games instead
 
Messages
738
i dont think that any Sydney team (or any club for that matter) will fold or merge in the next couple of seasons, but i do think that each club should take a ''home game match'' to a different area to test it out. Could be in the trials and/or premiership rounds.

i think that the Dragons took a trials game to Perth earlier this year (or last year?), Sharks to a game to Adelaide last year, and i think a few took their games to Gosford over the last few years. I think that these places, as well as Darwin / the Alice, Hobart / Launceston and maybe the Coffs Harbour have games played there each year (trials includes) to test whether future teams may be included in the future

In the AFL, a few clubs from Melbourne have regularly taken games abroad to different areas - like in Tasmania, Canberra (no afl team there), Gold Coast (prior to the Suns) and since 2010, 2 games a year at Darwin.

Possible places for new clubs:
Perth, 1,700,000 population
Adelaide - 1,200,000
Another Brisbane team (Brisb pop is 2m)
Tassie: 311,000+ (Hobart - 215,000 and Launceston 106,000)
(no new Melb team for a while!)
 

dogslife

Coach
Messages
18,954
geographically the two sydney teams to relocate should be the dogs and sharks

the shire is too small an area to support a national sporting team and no one outside of it supports or cares about the sharks.

the dogs dont represent an area of sydney, all their 'locals' would justjump ship and go start riots at dragons/tigers/eels games instead

I'm assuming that's purely from a geographical standpoint. Because relocating one of the most popular and financially well off teams in Sydney sounds a little farfetched. And I for one don't start riots, I only join in the ones that have already started, they're just so damn fun :D
 

Ausguy

Coach
Messages
14,887
The storm are not growing in popularity. And to suggest they are better contributors than Cronulla is on shaky ground as you only have your Pay TV argument. You mentioned juniors before - and that word "potential". When will Melbourne actually produce that potential?

The whole argument againt Cronulla is crowds and finances based. Melbourne is propped up by News, Cronulla aint. Melbourne win 70% of their games, Cronulla certainly don't. Yet, Melbourne's shiny new stadium and minor premiership, against Cronulla's spoons, only tip the scales marginally Melbournes way in terms of crowds.

Against the average Sydney club, Melbourne's performance is crap. Yet no one suggests Melbourne be punted for another expansion side. That is my point.

Hey Hey Hey... no spoon since 1969 thankyou!!!

Not really.... the NRL would bail them out. No team is going to fold, the image of the NRL would take a big hit if this were to happen, not to mention the embarrassment and negative publicity the code would have to endure. The negatives would far outweigh the positives for the NRL if Cronulla folded.

All 16 clubs are here to stay.

Wrong... If the sharks dont get approval there will be no bail out.
 

Mong

Post Whore
Messages
55,685
OK. Maybe I misjudged you there. Do you support the introduction of another team at the expense of a NSW side?

Because there is an unrepresented population of 1 million people!!!! Have yopu ever noticed that sometimes Maccas opens an outlet which is near another Maccas outlet - and they both do well? It is because they have the market to do so!
Bluetongue is too close to Parramatta, ANZ or Ausgrid, but Lang Park is far enough away from Lang Park?

And you aint on an anti NSW agenda?

How is that an anti nsw agenda exactly? You are just bouncing from one argument to the next tracking back over previous arguments when earlier ones don't go so well. The reasons and differences have already been discussed in this thread.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
Again with petty personal insults because you have no argument to speak of.

Have already told you to look at the Fitzoy region which i am assuming you have chosen not to.

The following web site gives it a population of a bit over 200K which goes out to Emarald being about 2.5 hours away. Add to that some who may travel from areas like Mackay and Bundaberg (both approx 280k away) and to a lesser extent areas like Hervey Bay and Maryborough.

The official bid talks up a bit over 400K, that is a little unrealistic as it factors in the last two place i mentioned which i doubt they would draw much from in terms of crowds but it's not too far wrong.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Community-and-environment/Regional-information/Fitzroy-Region.aspx

Make of that what you will but try and stick to what was actually posted.

I don't know if I want to get involved in this argument because loudstrat has some valid arguments but lets look at Green Bay which has a population of only 306k and a hugely successful team in the Packers.

Having said that I don't think it's time for CQ. Ipswich is the fastest growing region in the country and should be given a franchise with WA Reds in 2013/2014.
 

Bananabender

Juniors
Messages
235
I live in the CQ area and believe me the place is going mad lately with new companies growing every day. There is no accommodation in some bigger centres near Rockhampton and people have moved up here in droves chasing the big bucks. The population is going to expand big time...maybe you should look up information about job prospects etc in CQ and see for yourself what is going on.
The group behind the CQ bid consist of many ex footy players such as Gary Larsen and Jason Hetherington and they have a big rich business guy who can fork out millions into the game. Also QLD Rail has jumped aboard as a major sponsor and is one of the biggest sponsorship companies that even the Broncos would whinge about not having.
I hope they get the bid so I can go along and support all the teams we like (Tigers Titans...Knights.......Rabbits....Manly....Dragons...)that we never get to see play unless we want to travel at least 7 hours. I am not counting on winning a spot in the bid and Id love to see the Central Coast get back a team so its no skin off my back either way...we have a 3D telly still..lol.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
Goddo, the NSW market is a massive market. Arguably the largest unrepresented market exists in the central coast, combined with the north shore - which is also unrepresented, there is a million people. Unlike the second Brisbane bid - these people do not have a local team.

There is a definite factor favouring new clubs in new areas. Fans of existing teams will only drop them for one reason - the creation of a local side to follow. There are no local options on the north shore or Central Coast. There IS a local option in Brisbane.

The only argument people have for the Bears is the stupid "postcode" argument. If that 1 million people was anywhere outside NSW it would have 100% support. On that point alone it craps on Perth, because there is no AFL influence to overcome.

Perth, of course, like the Bears, has it's sh*t together, and done the hard yards with the juniors. Nothing else at this stage comes close.

Anyway, part of this argument is culling Sydney sides to make way for new teams. With NRL making expansion noises for 2015 to add 2 new teams, a cull is only needed for 3 or more new teams, if the NRL imposes an 18 team ceiling. And to make that call, the new team has to basically guarantee it would do better than the bottom Sydney sides.

Why Sydney sides? Because of double standards. The bottom crowd pulling Sydney sides traditionally mingle with a couple of non Sydney sides in crowd stats. Melbourne and Canberra are the culprits, and the Titans are there as well this year. But no one would think of punting Melbourne, Canberra or Gold Coast, because of the obvious representation of theoir district. Yet Melbourne can cause the code massive damage - big enough basically to declare 2 seasons completely null and void. Cronulla on the other hand is on the chopping block because they survive on a meagre budget?

People fill stadiums, buy tickets, buy merchandise and keep clubs running. Gold Coast is no better than Cronulla ATM. Yet the Titans were brought in for the same reasons people was backing the Bombers and CQ bids. The extra QLD side on TV, the unrepresented population. What has it achieved? At least it wasnt at the expense of another club.

No club should have ever been axed, and no club should be. If a club cannot continue to operate, then so be it. This year, Cronulla actually climbed off the canvas. Expecting every club to make the finals is a rediculous thing when each year every club cannot make the finals.

This is why the old 20 team comp idea needs to be rethought. Perth and Central Coast are ready to go now - except for recruitment. If given the go ahead for 2013, they could cobble together competetive sides, and if aimed at 2014 they could snare some big names as well.

From there, if the Bombers, CQ or Wellington bidded, and two were selected, there's your 20 team comp. many will say a 20 team comp is a terrible idea. It's only 2 more than 18 ffs, and the calling for an 18 team comp is virtually unanimous. The [roblem is though that RL is not strong enough to pick and choose which areas it wants to represent. It needs Cronulla and the Bears as much as it needs anywhere.

We are he only code in the country who has not consolidated all it's heartland yet. That should be our goal, not decimating it.

You know what the problem is? We are have a hybrid competition - half Sydney suburban, half national. That has to end. We can't have 9 teams in a city of 4.6 million playing in front of small crowds with people standing on hills ffs. It's time to look to the future, not the past.
 
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Parra

Referee
Messages
24,900
I don't know if I want to get involved in this argument because loudstrat has some valid arguments but lets look at Green Bay which has a population of only 306k and a hugely successful team in the Packers.

Having said that I don't think it's time for CQ. Ipswich is the fastest growing region in the country and should be given a franchise with WA Reds in 2013/2014.


You are using the exception as a model. Green Bay is not an expansion team - it is the last of the old small town teams from the original pro comp. From the days where pro football was a small town game and was not that popular. NFL would never put a team into Green Bay today. The Packers also have a unique ownership model - the fans own shares in the Packers and elect a board to control the team.
 

Bulldog Force

Referee
Messages
20,619
To be rid of some of the Sydney teams and put teams where the people are. Was just having a look at the Central Qld bid and you would have to say they deserve a team. Good $$ and guaranteed crowds. Also Perth and Ipswich also deserve a team as there are people there who will support them.

But no Gallop and co will continue with the merry chant of keeping existing teams but seriously many are going bankrupt and there crowds are awful.

My thoughts are that for a team to continue with it having a franchise licence they should have to meet definite criteria in terms of funding, profitability and support. f**k this living in the past propping up clubs that cant function on their own. Its the nRL now not the NSWRL anymore
The population of Sydney is the same as the ENTIRE population of Queensland you schmuck!
 

Bulldog Force

Referee
Messages
20,619
Yet QLD doesn't have 9 teams.
Exactly, so let's add more teams in QLD rather than relocate Sydney teams. We're not exactly expanding the game by relocating teams! Besides, the Central Coast Bears are more likely than not going to be the next team admitted into the comp.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
Regarding the Storm. It can't be stressed how important they are. We can't allow the AFL to continue to go around claiming they are the only truly national football code. We need Perth and Melbourne in the NRL.
 

Bulldog Force

Referee
Messages
20,619
Regarding the Storm. It can't be stressed how important they are. We can't allow the AFL to continue to go around claiming they are the only truly national football code. We need Perth and Melbourne in the NRL.
Melbourne are definitely going to stay in the competition, even if that means getting financial aid from somewhere, but they don't need it. The Victorian Government will even help them if need be. With regards to Perth, they also have a strong bid next time expansion comes round.
 

juro

Bench
Messages
3,820
If the NRL was to ever bail out a Sydney team again, I would hope that there would be a lot of strings attached regarding what the club offers to the NRL as a whole.
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
28,093
If the NRL was to ever bail out a Sydney team again, I would hope that there would be a lot of strings attached regarding what the club offers to the NRL as a whole.

The first one should be relocate to Perth/Adelaide/Brisbane/NZ
 

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