Sydney's North Shore

[reanimate]

(Warning, long post.)

After discussing this in another thread, I thought this was worthy of its own discussion and getting the opinions of more people. As we all know, the North Shore of Sydney used to have its own RL team, the North Sydney Bears. After the NRL's rationalisation, the Bears were forced into a merger with Manly, which went badly and resulted in the Bears side of the merger dropping out of the NRL, with Manly returning as a standalone team and the Bears dropping to the NSW Cup. Some of the people behind the Bears are looking to revive the club as the Central Coast Bears, with a view of retaining the North Shore as part of its junior catchment and territory. So far though, the Bears bid for revival has been unsuccessful, which has left the North Shore in limbo- without a team there publicising itself and keeping itself in the forefront of people's minds, RL has begun to fall away, with Union and AFL gaining in support.

This isn't from a lack of trying from other NRL teams though, the Sea Eagles have attempted to do work such as meet-and-greets, fan days, school visits and clinics on the North Shore, but have had a number of their efforts met with resistance from the Bears, who view the area as theirs and want Manly and other NRL teams to keep out. In my opinion, this is stupid, it's hurting RL in the area badly- the area doesn't have an NRL team and aren't guaranteed of getting their own one again. The North Shore is somewhere RL needs to have a presence- there's a huge amount of money in the area, a substantial population, people and businesses with connections and sponsorship potential and good junior prospects. The Foran brothers and Mitchell Pearce (he deserves all the criticism he gets for his Origin performances, but he's a solid club-level player) are a few examples of current high-profile NS juniors.

So what should be done? There's a few options:

- Option 1: Bring in the CC Bears.

This is the ideal solution for the Bears, they get to retain their old area, claim the CC and return to the NRL. However, I think this solution has a number of problems with it- the CC Bears would only play one game a year at North Sydney Oval, would this be enough for the people of the North Shore to strongly support the Bears? Would the CC Bears be viewed and loved by the people of the North Shore as their local team and would playing for a Central Coast team be an attractive proposition for North Shore juniors? Would North Shore locals be willing to travel to Gosford for home games?

There's also the fact that the CC Bears would introduce the same problem that affects Cronulla and St. George-Illawarra, the CC Bears would leave Manly isolated, sandwiched between two areas claimed by another club. This would go against the NRL's current aim to ensure all the current NRL clubs are strong before expansion takes place- the CC Bears could damage an existing NRL club. I'm not saying they will, or that they shouldn't be introduced because of that possibility, but it's something to consider.

- Option 2: Extend the Sea Eagles' territory to incorporate the North Shore.

There's a number of problems with this solution too. The biggest one being that Bears fans and people involved with the Bears would never support such a move, as long as their bid is still alive. The NRL would have to kill off the CC Bears bid for this to properly work. There's also the bad memories and mistrust surrounding the Northern Eagles merger to deal with. However, from my personal experiences on the North Shore recently, I can see that the hatred and anger towards Manly has faded away significantly (although it never will with some), and in some areas there's people openly supporting Manly (check in at the pubs in Northbridge and Cremorne- they're very open about it), where a decade ago Manly would have been a dirty word. That's not to say everyone on the North Shore loves Manly, far from it, but if support for Manly has begun to grow there, without the Sea Eagles being able to do all the promotional and development work that they'd like, then there's potential for Manly support to really grow there.

There's other problems associated with this move too. Do Manly rename themselves to incorporate the North Shore? As a Manly fan, there'd be far too much anger and mistrust around another generic all-encompassing 'Northern' name for it to work. Do Manly just squeeze North Shore into their current name and logo, or do Manly not rename themselves at all?
This move, if it worked, would result in one super strong club north of the Harbour Bridge (with an upgraded Brookvale hopefully being a venue North Shore fans would be happy traveling to), with all juniors on the North Shore and Northern Beaches aiming to play for the one club. This would then, however, leave the problem as to what to do about the Central Coast.

What's your opinion and thoughts as to what should be done?

 

[Garbler]

Thanks for taking the time to outline many of the pros & cons with North Sydney.

 

[The Great Dane]

I stand by everything I said in the other thread, the best outcome for the North Shore is the Bears moving on from Sydney and Manly making a sincere and concerted effort to claim the North Shore as their own.

As for the CC the only way they should ever get a team is through the relocation of a Sydney team, with the game in the position that it is at the moment we simply cannot justify giving the CC their own NRL team through expansion while cities like Perth, Adelaide and Wellington don't have teams. It's an unfortunate set of circumstances because if any area deserves their own team it's the CC, but it is what it is.

 

[Perth Red]

There's enough sht clubs in Sydney, the area doesn't need another. The NRL should tell Manly to change their name to encompass the whole region and give them $2mill a year grant to develop the region and link to it including 4 home games a year in Gosford. Manly can't survive with its restricted population appeal and Gosford isn't getting its own team so this would be a logical compromise, IMO.

 

[reanimate]

Thanks for taking the time to outline many of the pros & cons with North Sydney.

No worries.

I stand by everything I said in the other thread, the best outcome for the North Shore is the Bears moving on from Sydney and Manly making a sincere and concerted effort to claim the North Shore as their own.

As for the CC the only way they should ever get a team is through the relocation of a Sydney team, with the game in the position that it is at the moment we simply cannot justify giving the CC their own NRL team through expansion while cities like Perth, Adelaide and Wellington don't have teams. It's an unfortunate set of circumstances because if any area deserves their own team it's the CC, but it is what it is.

There's enough sht clubs in Sydney, the area doesn't need another. The NRL should tell Manly to change their name to encompass the whole region and give them $2mill a year grant to develop the region and link to it including 4 home games a year in Gosford. Manly can't survive with its restricted population appeal and Gosford isn't getting its own team so this would be a logical compromise, IMO.

I agree with both of you.

Even though it hurts somewhat to admit, Manly's current position is unsustainable. We're doing fine at the moment, but if we take another hit for whatever reason, ala the merger, Super League or big boardroom war, it would be incredibly damaging. Our long term prospects will brighten significantly once Brookvale gets an upgrade, however, we need a bigger base to draw from. Having the North Shore under our banner would go a long, long way to the argument towards making Brookvale into a first class stadium, and to our fanbase and junior stocks.

Bringing in the CC Bears would just muddy the situation in my opinion- I think those behind the bid seriously overestimate how much support the team would get on the North Shore with just one game a year at North Sydney Oval. It's been a decade, the number of people caring about the Bears on the North Shore declines every year, and having them return and play one game a year in North Sydney would do little in the way of shoring up RL support in the area. There would be a number of people on the North Shore who be overjoyed at their return, but the interest amongst casual fans and the general populace after a few years would be minimal.

For the average RL fan, who isn't a hardcore Bears supporter, on the North Shore, what would be more appealing on a Friday/Monday night after work- a 25-40 minute bus trip to Brookvale Oval (from popular bus stops on the North Shore, e.g. Neutral Bay and North Sydney), or a train trip to the Central Coast which can take anywhere up to 2 hours?

A CC Bears team would leave the North Shore with a team who is in town to play once a year, Manly isolated, and the CC with a full-time team whose crowd numbers would likely fall around the 10-13k average mark once the initial new team euphoria wears off. Decent, for the area's population, but it's not what the NRL wants or needs.

I may be biased, but if Manly was to become the North Shore's team, I think that if we were to get in with the younger generations of fans and get established, we'd be able to offer the area a lot more than a CC team. For one, we're a stone's throw from each other. Some of the support that Manly's built on the North Shore has come simply from the team spending their personal time in the area, which being in very close proximity, is going to happen. Pubs have signed memorabilia, photos with players etc, plus I've heard stories of people meeting Manly players and how great it was and how they were going to watch their next game- it'd be much harder for players who are based on the CC, play on the CC etc. to spend a lot of time on the North Shore and do the same. If Manly had full permission and support from the NRL to get out there and do promotional work, it could do wonders- the club has a winning culture, and kids love meeting players and teams who have won a premiership.

Whatever ends up being done, the situation needs to be sorted out soon, because at the moment, this is what's happening, and RL on the North Shore is suffering for it:

Turf war ... the Bears and Sea Eagles are feuding over Sydney's northern suburbs. Source: The Daily Telegraph

THE Sea Eagles and Bears - fierce northside rivals for more than 50 years - have resumed hostilities.

Manly are furious the Bears are attempting to prevent the Brookvale club from promoting the game in the Asquith and Berowra areas, a traditional North Sydney district.

Central Coast Bears CEO Greg Florimo said the Upper North Shore remained his club's territory "according to the boundaries".

Manly claim the Bears are now on the Central Coast and have no right to claim Sydney's North Shore.

The Sea Eagles are planning to send in their star players to promote rugby league at a NSWRL community carnival for kids early next year.

"Manly have focused on the Upper North Shore clubs like Berowra," Florimo said.

"We were asked whether they could come into those schools and areas and, as a whole, the answer is no.

"We are trying to promote our brand name in those areas - not Manly's brand.

"It is a traditional [Norths and rugby league] area.

"It is a good, strong rugby league district. We have given a lot of support to clubs in those areas."

Manly have privately questioned who Norths will send to the schools given the Bears do not have an NRL licence.

Central Coast officials claim their area stretches from Milsons Point to Lake Munmorah - and Manly should back off.

But banning Manly players from attending the carnival will only damage the kids and rugby league, according to Sea Eagles chairman Scott Penn.

"The kids shouldn't suffer," Penn said. "It is an NSWRL junior development program, so we should have first bite given the Bears do not currently have an NRL licence.

"I'm sure the NSWRL will want an NRL team promoting the game. We are not looking for a fight with a non-existent NRL club.

"The GWS AFL franchise isn't far from the Upper North Shore. The Lower North Shore is rugby union, the Upper North Shore is rugby league.

"We are getting a multitude of players from that area and we will continue to do so.

"Youngsters from Berowra and Asquith areas are welcome and, indeed, play in our junior competitions.

"We will continue to welcome and encourage them.

"Young people need a pathway to the NRL and Manly can provide that.

"We have an obligation to spread the game."

 

[Garbler]

I think you make a lot of sense reanimate.

The NRL needs to be step in with an overarching strategy for North Sydney that all parties can get behind. Easier said the done obviously

For the Bears to defer to the Eagles, and for the Eagles to be awarded the plunder of the Bears junior base, I think the NRL needs to placate the Bears & the Eagles need to offer concessions in some form.

I think it needs to be short of name change for Manly, short of a merger with Manly, and short of giving into a bastardised form of the Bears brand on the CC. All of those options will be taking away value from the existing competition, the NRL will be looking for a value add response - whatever that looks like?

 

[newman]

Florimo is such a dickhead.

 

[ek999]

Tell the Bears to f**k off. All clubs need to attract new members. Who gives a flying f**k what Florimo thinks

 

[Lockyer4President!]

Renaming clubs to widen their appeal doesn't work. Especially when the club is one of the mot famous names in Australian sport...

 

[_MayMoo 2]

That article where you quote "this is what happening at the moment" is almost 3 years old. Get a grip.

The anyone who thinks the Bears will just roll over or that there will ever be wide support for Manly on the North Shore you know nothing.

The Central Coast will be getting a team and it will be the Central Coast Bears.

 

[reanimate]

I think you make a lot of sense reanimate.

The NRL needs to be step in with an overarching strategy for North Sydney that all parties can get behind. Easier said the done obviously

For the Bears to defer to the Eagles, and for the Eagles to be awarded the plunder of the Bears junior base, I think the NRL needs to placate the Bears & the Eagles need to offer concessions in some form.

I think it needs to be short of name change for Manly, short of a merger with Manly, and short of giving into a bastardised form of the Bears brand on the CC. All of those options will be taking away value from the existing competition, the NRL will be looking for a value add response - whatever that looks like?

Yeah, that's the problem- there isn't a solution that will make all parties happy and strong. I think the CC Bears is a flawed concept- you get a full time CC team, whose success as a full-time team is hard to judge, a weak North Shore presence and an isolated, potentially weaker Manly team. However, the Bears brand is valuable, and the bid deserves to know what is going to happen to it. The Great Dane suggested an interstate Bears team in the other thread, which is a good idea, as it would give the hardcore Bears fans a team, even if it's not in the place they want, another interstate team, and would allow the Bears to double dip for membership ala the Sydney Swans. They'd also get the Bears hardcore attending their Sydney away games.

You could also possibly give the CC 2-3 Sea Eagles games a year, and 1-2 Bears 'home' games there. That's as many, or even more games than the Tigers play at Campbelltown, and they're Campbelltown's own team.

Florimo is such a dickhead.

Tell the Bears to f**k off. All clubs need to attract new members. Who gives a flying f**k what Florimo thinks

I get where he's coming from, and why he's doing it, but it's now getting to the point where if the Bears revival hasn't happened yet, it's very unlikely it's going to- and it's now only harming RL on the North Shore.

Renaming clubs to widen their appeal doesn't work. Especially when the club is one of the mot famous names in Australian sport...

Well, that's true. If Manly were to rebrand themselves, they'd have to still be known in a popular sense as 'Manly', or the 'Sea Eagles'. Anything else would decimate the brand again. That makes it hard as to what Manly could do to incorporate the North Shore into their branding, if they were to do it. I said in the other thread I'd be against it, but probably the best compromise would be 'Manly North Shore Sea Eagles'. Adding North Shore to 'Manly-Warringah' could be done, but then the club's title would be 'Manly-Warringah North Shore Sea Eagles', it's a bit long winded. It could work though, especially if, as I said, the club was still known as Manly in a popular sense.

It would also have to be done after building up support in the area, doing it immediately would be poorly received. Or, the alternative is just doing what the Green Bay Packers do in the NFL, they technically represent a tiny area, but their support draws from all neighbouring areas, even if their name doesn't represent them. I don't know how well that would work here though.

 

[reanimate]

That article where you quote "this is what happening at the moment" is almost 3 years old. Get a grip.

And? It's still ongoing, Manly's attempts at working on the North Shore are met with resistance from the Bears- do you need a new article every week to reaffirm that?

The anyone who thinks the Bears will just roll over or that there will ever be wide support for Manly on the North Shore you know nothing.

The Central Coast will be getting a team and it will be the Central Coast Bears.

Will they though? When there's other, more valuable markets to expand to first?

Even if Manly never gets widespread support on the North Shore (growing support would take time, there's already some there in places where there was very little, to basically nothing, a decade ago), growing the brand there is still a far better option than what the area has now- I.e. nothing. RL is fading away on the North Shore, it'd be better for Manly to have the area than for the game there to remain in limbo and continue fading away.

 

[The Great Dane]

That article where you quote "this is what happening at the moment" is almost 3 years old. Get a grip.

The anyone who thinks the Bears will just roll over or that there will ever be wide support for Manly on the North Shore you know nothing.

The Central Coast will be getting a team and it will be the Central Coast Bears.

Mate the bears opportunities on the CC have all come and gone, it's time to pick up and go to the areas that are large enough to support a team and the NRL are interested in including in the comp.

If they're quick they might be able to get they're sh!t together in SEQ and maybe make a run of it before the NRL look at expansion next year.

 

[docbrown]

If the NRL can't work towards a 20 team comp with the Central Coast Bears, West Coast Pirates, South Queensland/SW Brisbane and Wellington-Christchurch NZ2 all included then they should just give up now about ever trying to be the number one sport.

That model would set rugby league up as the most wide spread sports league across Australia & New Zealand.

There's a requirement for a resurrected team presence on the Central Coast & North Shore and the most practical 2 birds 1 stone solution is the Central Coast Bears.

Yes they would only play 1 game a year at North Sydney Oval - but there's enough stadiums on the fringe of the Bears territory - Brookvale, Stadium Australia, Leichardt, SFS - to create away membership packages. The Bears are the only expansion club that are going to attract significant away fan support at other Sydney club home games.

I put it this way to Manly fans wondering about the Bears possible return. What makes more sense to the game as whole? To have one team - Manly - lazily trying to engage the North Shore & Central Coast in a half hearted manner? Or to put them into fierce competition with a traditional rival for hearts and minds? What do you think gets people talking more, reading more, buying more? I can tell you now if you have any understanding of competitive game theory the Bears-Sea Eagles scenario will be better for the NRL overall than the Sea Eagles along.

If you market the clubs as 'Central Coast' on the Coast and as the 'Bears' in North Sydney you get the benefit of both.

As for Manly's isolation that's their own doing. If they were going to easily spread the brand to North Sydney & Central Coast then they would have done by now. As they haven't it is also unlikely that they will ever come to dominate either area. To expect a different result from Manly doing the same thing they have been is foolhardy.

The Bears will help Manly by making rugby league the sporting focus from the harbour to the Central Coast. That means more new fans and kids playing the sport. That benefits Manly in the long run.

 

[CC_Roosters]

Mate the bears opportunities on the CC have all come and gone, it's time to pick up and go to the areas that are large enough to support a team and the NRL are interested in including in the comp.

If they're quick they might be able to get they're sh!t together in SEQ and maybe make a run of it before the NRL look at expansion next year.

Not sure its come and gone. If and when the NRL calls forbids I expect it will ramp up support again for the bid on the coast

 

[BuffaloRules]

Unfortunately it's in the best interests of the game that expansion occurs in Perth,SEQ & NZ before CC.

So this means that it is unlikely the CC Bears will be in the comp in the next 10 years.

What happens to the North Shore of Sydney in the meantime?

 

[Red&BlackBear]

Expansion assumptions. . Everyone does it, everyone is wrong

 

[reanimate]

If the NRL can't work towards a 20 team comp with the Central Coast Bears, West Coast Pirates, South Queensland/SW Brisbane and Wellington-Christchurch NZ2 all included then they should just give up now about ever trying to be the number one sport.

That model would set rugby league up as the most wide spread sports league across Australia & New Zealand.

I completely agree with that other than the CC Bears.

There's a requirement for a resurrected team presence on the Central Coast & North Shore and the most practical 2 birds 1 stone solution is the Central Coast Bears.

Why? Why the CC and NS together? All it does is give the NS a weak, token RL presence.

Yes they would only play 1 game a year at North Sydney Oval - but there's enough stadiums on the fringe of the Bears territory - Brookvale, Stadium Australia, Leichardt, SFS - to create away membership packages. The Bears are the only expansion club that are going to attract significant away fan support at other Sydney club home games.

But why would this suddenly shore up RL support on the North Shore? Why are casual fans and bandwagoners going to suddenly care and support a team who is in town to play a home game once a year like it's their local team.

I think it's a huge assumption that simply having a team called the 'Bears' back in the comp will suddenly make RL strong on the North Shore again. Sure, maybe in guys aged 30-70, who were fans of the Bears and have refused to follow the game since their passing, but there's only so many of them. There's new generations on the North Shore who have little-to-no connection to the Bears, and really wouldn't give much of a damn about them or their return. Sure, they might go to the NS Oval game, but you'd have little chance of turning many of them into hardcore fans making regular trips to the CC.

Get Manly building support amongst these younger generations, and you'd have far more chance of getting more long term, hardcore fans- Brookvale is closer to a vast majority of the North Shore than Gosford is, and Manly has a winning culture.

I put it this way to Manly fans wondering about the Bears possible return. What makes more sense to the game as whole? To have one team - Manly - lazily trying to engage the North Shore & Central Coast in a half hearted manner?
Or to put them into fierce competition with a traditional rival for hearts and minds? What do you think gets people talking more, reading more, buying more? I can tell you now if you have any understanding of competitive game theory the Bears-Sea Eagles scenario will be better for the NRL overall than the Sea Eagles along.

Because that worked so well for the Bears last time?

The competition between a 2nd NZ club and the Warriors would be far, far more beneficial to the NRL than the presence of the CC Bears.

If you market the clubs as 'Central Coast' on the Coast and as the 'Bears' in North Sydney you get the benefit of both.

But do you? This is the assumption all Bears fans make.

A stack of young kids on the North Shore now play in a comp with Northern Beaches teams, they see guys like Kieran Foran playing for Manly- it makes sense to build upon that and make Manly the North Shore's team.

As for Manly's isolation that's their own doing. If they were going to easily spread the brand to North Sydney & Central Coast then they would have done by now. As they haven't it is also unlikely that they will ever come to dominate either area. To expect a different result from Manly doing the same thing they have been is foolhardy.

Who said it'd be easy? Our brand has spread- we have a number of supporters on the CC, and support in areas of the North Shore that never existed before. We've also had our progress in the area hindered by the Bears- if they weren't obstructing Manly, and Manly had the directive and support from the NRL to take the area, I think you'd be seeing very different results.

The Bears will help Manly by making rugby league the sporting focus from the harbour to the Central Coast. That means more new fans and kids playing the sport. That benefits Manly in the long run.

I can't see it. I see a token presence on the North Shore, which has bugger all chance of getting casual fans on board and becoming hard core supporters of a CC team, I see a CC team, who will probably do well for the size of the area, but will end up with middling averages, which are unappealing to the NRL, and I see Manly now isolated ala Cronulla, which is an idiotic move.

 

[flippikat]

If the NRL can't work towards a 20 team comp with the Central Coast Bears, West Coast Pirates, South Queensland/SW Brisbane and Wellington-Christchurch NZ2 all included then they should just give up now about ever trying to be the number one sport.

That model would set rugby league up as the most wide spread sports league across Australia & New Zealand.

If we're looking at a 20-team model, there's a lot going for this one. Lock-in those 4 for priority in expansion

With the same number of teams we had in 1995, we get the same reach - including 3 SE Queensland teams - *plus* the Central Coast, second NZ team and Melbourne.

Expansion past that would need some population growth or grassroots development in markets like Adelaide, NT or Central Queensland, whereas the 4 that docbrown suggests are "good to go" in the near future.

With that in mind, the NRL also needs to set-up development plans for strategic locations that won't be in the 20-team competition. That includes NRL games in places like Adelaide, Darwin, Cairns, Hamilton & Dunedin.

 

[The Great Dane]

If we're looking at a 20-team model, there's a lot going for this one. Lock-in those 4 for priority in expansion

With the same number of teams we had in 1995, we get the same reach - including 3 SE Queensland teams - *plus* the Central Coast, second NZ team and Melbourne.

Expansion past that would need some population growth or grassroots development in markets like Adelaide, NT or Central Queensland, whereas the 4 that docbrown suggests are "good to go" in the near future.

With that in mind, the NRL also needs to set-up development plans for strategic locations that won't be in the 20-team competition. That includes NRL games in places like Adelaide, Darwin, Cairns, Hamilton & Dunedin.

I think plans like this one are very short sighted, my main problem with them are that they assume that what is possible now is the best outcome.

After this next set of expansions we'll have roughly 10 years before we will be ready to expand again, during that time a hell of a lot can change. It's hasn't taken the WARL 10 years to take WA and in particular Perth from a RL graveyard to the third biggest state for RL in the country and that's while running on the smell of an oily rug.

So if it's taken the WARL less then a decade to get to where they are now without much money or much in the way of resources imagine what we'd be able to do if we actually put in an effort to grow the game in the areas that we want to expand to with the money and resources that we have now.

The NRL won't be choosing where to expand to based on the stability of independent bid teams in the future, they'll be deciding where they want to expand to then making it happen and that's the main reason why the CC bid is dead in my opinion because after this set of expansions in which we will most likely expand to WA and SEQ the NRL will look to other bigger fish then the CC like Adelaide and Wellington and pump money and resources into them until they are ready to support a team.