The Bears

[reanimate]

Haven't read past page 1 but my 2c is this:

Bears should absolutely come back, playing out of Central Coast Stadium as was originally intended, with 1 or 2 boutique games a year played at NSO (probably against a low-drawing interstate team like the GC or Redcliffe).

This club would be a huge success in terms of support, junior growth and corporate support and anybody claiming we should admit some other half-baked bid because there are too many NSW teams is wrong.

And while I'm here, the Wests Tigers should also split with the Balmain faction heading north, joining the Easts NRL bid and becoming the Brisbane Tigers, while Wests go back to Campbelltown full-time as the rebranded Western Sydney Magpies focusing solely on the huge S-W Sydney growth area.

It’d likely be another club putting out averages of 9-12k, i.e. what we need to improve on, not add more of. The Central Coast is also in the Sydney TV market, it would add no value to broadcasters. A huge number of people who live on the Coast travel to Sydney for work, due to lack of work opportunities up there. I’m not sure how that translates to lots of opportunities for corporate success, unless you believe the Bears’ BS about companies on the North Shore lining up to sponsor them (it’s their leagues club).

Everything to do with Sydney, the CC and Wollongong needs to be, and can be, covered by the existing 9 clubs. 10 even, when it comes to the Central Coast, given its proximity to Newcastle.

 

[Colk]

Agreed the less time we spend talking about this bid, the more time we can actually spend on bids that can actually grow the game.

The fact that this is even being talked about by the media and by some fans is an indictment on the game. If the Bears don’t or won’t consider a location outside of NSW or Qld they in turn should not be considered

 

[Perth Red]

bears “corporate support will be massive”
next breath, “our main sponsor will be our LC”. Just lol.

 

[T-Boon]

I know right. The funny thing is that a lot of their players are rejects from other sports like basketball and their game shows the least of amount of skill that I can think of.

AFL has skills - but the standard you need to be at with those skills to get a game is ridiculously low.
The main thing you need is fitness and some coordination which most men with dedication can just get by hard work. Which is why everyone who is good at any sport in Victoria is also going to be good at AFL (but not vice versa). From what I can see every kid who ever made a Victorian under 17s/19s cricket squad could play in the AFL.

 

[The Lounge Lizard]

I know right. The funny thing is that a lot of their players are rejects from other sports like basketball and their game shows the least of amount of skill that I can think of. The people who ridiculously claim that AFL players are more skillfull than international soccer players have obviously never seen an international soccer match or understand what skill is

Another tale of overestimation was when one of their stupid commentators claimed that an AFL team could revolutionise Rugby League and beat the SOI teams within a couple of years. Most AFL players are what 80-90 kgs ringing wet and are beanpoles. A lot of them would nearly die if they were to be tackled by or had to tackle a RL forward

It would be hilarious to see James Tamalolo run through the likes of wannabe tough guy Busting Fartin or the yank stringbean Mason Cocks.

 

[parrawentyfan]

Back in 2007 I was very supportive of the Bears re-entering. There were 3 strong bids at the time from memory including the Gold Coast and Wellington. It really is righting a wrong and would have brought a lot of goodwill to the game. However I think the sad reality is that the Bears have been gone so long now that there aren't many young people clamboring for their return.

However since then, the opportunity to expand to other markets has grown so much.

I think the following places are before the Bears in priority:
- Perth
- Adelaide
- Wellington
- Christchurch
- Ipswich

Not that I agree with the Bears push for inclusion, if they are serious about then they need to really push themselves as a choice that cannot be ignored.

They need to try what the Western Force did. Ie - run as a professional organisation off their own bat to demonstrate how viable and serious they are.

If I were the Bears I would:

- Make a better attempt to engage the Central Coast. Whack a new Leagues Club there. Do lots of junior work etc etc

- Demonstrate they can get fans through the gates by hosting two annual trial matches. Do this every year without fail and build tradition around the games like the Charity Shield or Newtown's annual festival game:
- one game at Gosford against the Knights.
- one game at NSO against the Sea-Eagles.
Imagine selling those out for 10 years straight what a message it would send.

- Become a fashion icon. It sounds stupid but look at the Jets (and to an extent the Rabbits). I don't live in Sydney any more but I remember seeing Newtown gear worn by hipsters in a retro sort of way. Get lines of clothing out there in major retailers particularly those in North Sydney and Central Coast

- Build some sort of celebrity around the club. You know - marketing.....

- Get some iron clad agreement from a hard hitting sponsor like one of the banking or financial firms based in North Sydney or Chatswood. Eg HSBC or (for some feels Citibank). Basically it would be a contract along the lines of $xxx on the proviso of admission to the NRL).

- stop death-riding other clubs. No one likes it and it is a bad look.

- get some agreement with (i hate to say it, Swans and Waratahs). Eg, membership includes Norths leagues membership etc etc. I don't know exactly but try to engage those fanbases.

- Be competitive in the NSW Cup. Get people through the gates and win matches.

- lobby to be included as an NRLW team or get some women's grass roots games going.

- get lots of TV content. Bears specials on Kayo etc etc.

 

[Colk]

AFL has skills - but the standard you need to be at with those skills to get a game is ridiculously low.
The main thing you need is fitness and some coordination which most men with dedication can just get by hard work. Which is why everyone who is good at any sport in Victoria is also going to be good at AFL (but not vis versa). From what I can see every kid who ever made a Victorian under 17s/19s cricket squad could play in the AFL.

Can’t say that mate. If AFL wasn’t around, could you imagine the flood of white beanpoles dominating other sports.

 

[Perth Red]

Back in 2007 I was very supportive of the Bears re-entering. There were 3 strong bids at the time from memory including the Gold Coast and Wellington. It really is righting a wrong and would have brought a lot of goodwill to the game. However I think the sad reality is that the Bears have been gone so long now that there aren't many young people clamboring for their return.

However since then, the opportunity to expand to other markets has grown so much.

I think the following places are before the Bears in priority:
- Perth
- Adelaide
- Wellington
- Christchurch
- Ipswich

Not that I agree with the Bears push for inclusion, if they are serious about then they need to really push themselves as a choice that cannot be ignored.

They need to try what the Western Force did. Ie - run as a professional organisation off their own bat to demonstrate how viable and serious they are.

If I were the Bears I would:

- Make a better attempt to engage the Central Coast. Whack a new Leagues Club there. Do lots of junior work etc etc

- Demonstrate they can get fans through the gates by hosting two annual trial matches. Do this every year without fail and build tradition around the games like the Charity Shield or Newtown's annual festival game:
- one game at Gosford against the Knights.
- one game at NSO against the Sea-Eagles.
Imagine selling those out for 10 years straight what a message it would send.

- Become a fashion icon. It sounds stupid but look at the Jets (and to an extent the Rabbits). I don't live in Sydney any more but I remember seeing Newtown gear worn by hipsters in a retro sort of way. Get lines of clothing out there in major retailers particularly those in North Sydney and Central Coast

- Build some sort of celebrity around the club. You know - marketing.....

- Get some iron clad agreement from a hard hitting sponsor like one of the banking or financial firms based in North Sydney or Chatswood. Eg HSBC or (for some feels Citibank). Basically it would be a contract along the lines of $xxx on the proviso of admission to the NRL).

- stop death-riding other clubs. No one likes it and it is a bad look.

- get some agreement with (i hate to say it, Swans and Waratahs). Eg, membership includes Norths leagues membership etc etc. I don't know exactly but try to engage those fanbases.

- Be competitive in the NSW Cup. Get people through the gates and win matches.

- lobby to be included as an NRLW team or get some women's grass roots games going.

- get lots of TV content. Bears specials on Kayo etc etc.

I think most people have a very misguided opinion of the wealth of the bears. Just because you have a big LC doesn’t mean to say their rolling in cash. In 2019 (pre covid) the LC turned over a revenue of $58mill but only made $760k profit. That isn’t much money to put towards running an nrl club. Ask sharks or dragons how useful LC’s are if they aren’t turning over a big profit.

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[Reflector]

The North Sydney Bears would have survived, and Penrith Panthers been left behind, had the Bears not been in debt (supposedly $4 million). What a forward thinking decision that would have been.

Penrith also would have been ruled out if Balmain's members chose to go it alone rather than surrender to the merger with Wests.

 

[Reflector]

I think you are really overestimating a lot of things. CC Mariners have been on death’s door for a majority of their existence because they don’t have enough corporate support. They also don’t get enough supporters to the game Secondly, if people from the Central Coast want to follow a side they have 10 options within what 150kms. They have, like Sydney fairly extensive coverage of League and they can hop on a train/or in their car and go up to Newcastle or down to Sydney and watch a game every weekend if they want to. Most RL supporters in this country don’t have this luxury.

Lastly, are you really arguing that there aren’t enough NSW teams? Most of these clubs figures, club finances, membership numbers would suggest otherwise. In fact what is the average crowd attendance for Sydney clubs? 10-12k?

CCM don't get enough corporate support (compared to teams like Sydney and the Victory) because they are from a region of 300k people where much of the population still works for Sydney-based companies. The Bears in their originally planned guise (Play in Gosford with 1 or 2 games a season at NSO, backed by Norths Leagues) would attract corporate support from one of the richest commercial regions in Australia. Similar to how with the Dragons merger, St George brought the brand/ history and Illawarra brought the junior region, with the Bears the CC would bring the juniors (and is a big growth area) while the North Shore would bring that corporate support.

Re. the number of Sydney clubs, how many is too many? Are we basing this on dots on a map, a figure that sounds 'right' to us or journos/ club-affiliated NRL identities with an agenda saying we can't expand past x amount of teams or Sydney has too many teams?

If we were having this discussion in 1981, I would have been more inclined to agree that there were too many teams in Sydney. You had Wests, Cronulla, Newtown (just from memory) all in financial strife. If a club can't afford to stay afloat and doesn't make long-term plans to rectify this then they deserve to be cut.

But which Sydney clubs, in 2021, are struggling by metrics besides on-field? Cronulla used to be talked about all the time but they have turned things around with their land development setting them up, plus breaking through for their maiden Premiership helped as well. As somebody else mentioned, they also have healthy league player numbers in the region.

Norths tried to do the right thing in the late 90's according to what the NRL (and even people on here today) are recommending: they chose to relocate and had a new stadium to go with it. They were going to relocate to a growing area with great junior league numbers to this day. They were an established brand with nearly a century of history. Yet they found themselves in trouble financially (no worse than a few other clubs that the NRL bailed out in years before or since) and the NRL had no foresight. They should've given the Bears a loan, got them to Gosford full-time and warned the board not to let it happen again. That would've been thinking with the future in mind.

Instead they were railroaded into the dumbest merger idea of all time and it lasted barely 18 months. A foundation club remains on the outer, a bid that would have healthy corporate backing + great promotion of new NRL-standard talent + healthy regional support (both via the CC) continues to be left unfulfilled and the best argument people seem to be able to make against it is this idea that it doesn't agree with their "magic" number or dots on a map.

I am 100% pro the CC Bears being admitted obviously, but this doesn't mean I an anti most of the other bids. Redcliffe being admitted is fantastic and long due. Maybe Wynnum in future as well, locking up the east/ bayside of Brisbane too? PNG, Perth and another NZ team all make sound sense as well in the mid/ long-term future. Difference is I think we should not just be expanding in terms of dots on a map, but expanding the total number of teams. It will only make the entire game stronger as a whole. If a club can't afford to stay afloat and doesn't adapt, then they deserve to die. But if they can pay their way then their presence makes the NRL better. It's simply that (in terms of being ready to run) the Bears have long been one of the best contenders and they deserve to have their time now.

 

[reanimate]

CCM don't get enough corporate support (compared to teams like Sydney and the Victory) because they are from a region of 300k people where much of the population still works for Sydney-based companies. The Bears in their originally planned guise (Play in Gosford with 1 or 2 games a season at NSO, backed by Norths Leagues) would attract corporate support from one of the richest commercial regions in Australia. Similar to how with the Dragons merger, St George brought the brand/ history and Illawarra brought the junior region, with the Bears the CC would bring the juniors (and is a big growth area) while the North Shore would bring that corporate support.

Do you really think big global brands like Microsoft are withholding their support of the NRL until we bring back the Bears? The Bears’ BS about companies on the North Shore lining up to sponsor them has always been about their leagues club + associated businesses. They aren’t going to magically have a jersey full of international conglomerates because they have offices in North Sydney or St Leonards.

Re. the number of Sydney clubs, how many is too many? Are we basing this on dots on a map, a figure that sounds 'right' to us or journos/ club-affiliated NRL identities with an agenda saying we can't expand past x amount of teams or Sydney has too many teams?


If we were having this discussion in 1981, I would have been more inclined to agree that there were too many teams in Sydney. You had Wests, Cronulla, Newtown (just from memory) all in financial strife. If a club can't afford to stay afloat and doesn't make long-term plans to rectify this then they deserve to be cut.

But which Sydney clubs, in 2021, are struggling by metrics besides on-field? Cronulla used to be talked about all the time but they have turned things around with their land development setting them up, plus breaking through for their maiden Premiership helped as well. As somebody else mentioned, they also have healthy league player numbers in the region.

Most of them? Average crowds are stagnant, membership growth is slow, some have run into financial trouble. All of them have the potential to be better, look at the continual membership and crowd growth the AFL has continued to eke out of their Melbourne sides and they’re still not happy with it. The smaller sides like North Melbourne have constantly been the target of relocation talks.

We should be aiming to tweak pathways, marketing and development strategies to get those 9 clubs performing as best as they can, not add a 10th into that pile.
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Norths tried to do the right thing in the late 90's according to what the NRL (and even people on here today) are recommending: they chose to relocate and had a new stadium to go with it. They were going to relocate to a growing area with great junior league numbers to this day. They were an established brand with nearly a century of history. Yet they found themselves in trouble financially (no worse than a few other clubs that the NRL bailed out in years before or since) and the NRL had no foresight. They should've given the Bears a loan, got them to Gosford full-time and warned the board not to let it happen again. That would've been thinking with the future in mind.


Instead they were railroaded into the dumbest merger idea of all time and it lasted barely 18 months. A foundation club remains on the outer, a bid that would have healthy corporate backing + great promotion of new NRL-standard talent + healthy regional support (both via the CC) continues to be left unfulfilled and the best argument people seem to be able to make against it is this idea that it doesn't agree with their "magic" number or dots on a map.

I am 100% pro the CC Bears being admitted obviously, but this doesn't mean I an anti most of the other bids. Redcliffe being admitted is fantastic and long due. Maybe Wynnum in future as well, locking up the east/ bayside of Brisbane too? PNG, Perth and another NZ team all make sound sense as well in the mid/ long-term future. Difference is I think we should not just be expanding in terms of dots on a map, but expanding the total number of teams. It will only make the entire game stronger as a whole. If a club can't afford to stay afloat and doesn't adapt, then they deserve to die. But if they can pay their way then their presence makes the NRL better. It's simply that (in terms of being ready to run) the Bears have long been one of the best contenders and they deserve to have their time now.

What happened to the Bears was cruel and they deserved to remain over clubs like Cronulla, but it’s so far in the past now relitigating it is pointless. Bringing them back isn’t going to undo over 20 years of rot on the North Shore and they aren’t going to live up to all their promises, promises that don’t require their introduction into the NRL to be met at all. E.g. the Bears don’t have some magical ability to bring more juniors from the CC into first grade that can’t be done via other means, e.g. centralised NRL development pathways, formal adoption of the area by another team (Roosters are investing a lot in the area) etc.

 

[The_Frog]

Penrith also would have been ruled out if Balmain's members chose to go it alone rather than surrender to the merger with Wests.

My point exactly. Balmain were considered more strategic to the game's future than Penrith, and Souths for that matter.

Maybe they were looking at the AFL, which has 9 teams headquartered within a few km of the Melbourne CBD. But Melbourne is a town like no other. Or maybe they were looking at a healthy supporter base many (most) of whom were located well outside the tiny gentrified inner city suburb. Having supporters didn't help the Bunnies at the time though.

Balmain were already in serious financial bother in any case, and had been for some time, which didn't seem to worry the ARL/NRL.

 

[Colk]

Firstly, well done Reanimate, I could not have answered that better myself.

There are probably only two clubs that are tracking well in terms of support and memberships: Souths and Parramatta. They should be the minimum of what you’d expect clubs to achieve in a global city. The Tigers are not terrible considering they’ve been a basket case for more than a decade. All the rest of the teams are tracking lower than 20k members and have attendances well below that. If this doesn’t tell you there are too many sides in Sydney then I don’t know what does.

Now I’m saying that the Bears won’t get in as I wouldn’t put anything beyond Mr Rugba Leeg and suburban tribalism is the future Peter V’landys but the fact that people are actually advocating the view that there should be more sides in NSW is absolutely nuts

 

[Colk]

It’s interesting. If League applied the same rationale as AFL to their Sydney competition, you would have probably had Balmain, Newtown, Souths, Norths, Roosters, Canterbury, St George and Parramatta

Wests maybe would have still gone under and if so, they could have been replaced by Penrith. If not they could have stretched their support out to Penrith.

What’s done is done obviously but hypothetically you would have had all these teams eventually play at two stadiums

SFS: Norths, Souths, Roosters, St George
Homebush/BankWest: Parramatta, Canterbury, Balmain, Wests

 

[MugaB]

What happened to the Bears was cruel and they deserved to remain over clubs like Cronulla, but it’s so far in the past now relitigating it is pointless. Bringing them back isn’t going to undo over 20 years of rot on the North Shore and they aren’t going to live up to all their promises, promises that don’t require their introduction into the NRL to be met at all. E.g. the Bears don’t have some magical ability to bring more juniors from the CC into first grade that can’t be done via other means, e.g. centralised NRL development pathways, formal adoption of the area by another team (Roosters are investing a lot in the area) etc.

Hold the fk on, CRONULLA, your team basically fkd these guys, and had been doing it since inception, an inception they not agreed on, but help foster.. read up on how manly got in in 1947, no wonder bears fans, and most RL fans think manly are scum... and you're throwing shade on cronulla, weren't manly in the media not 2 years ago getting thrown around as the next big ol relocate?

 

[reanimate]

Hold the fk on, CRONULLA, your team basically fkd these guys, and had been doing it since inception, an inception they not agreed on, but help foster.. read up on how manly got in in 1947, no wonder bears fans, and most RL fans think manly are scum... and you're throwing shade on cronulla, weren't manly in the media not 2 years ago getting thrown around as the next big ol relocate?

Norths stayed with the ARL and got booted, in part, over finances, while Cronulla went to Super League and have required bailing out time and time again- yes, it’s cruel Norths got booted over Cronulla.

Manly was being touted as a relocation target, thankfully nothing eventuated from that. It’s bad enough the Bears got booted, losing the only top flight club in Sydney’s north would be utterly moronic.

 

[Perth Red]

Still not convinced Sharks arent on borrowed time. They've bought themselves a reprieve from their debts by selling their assets but are banking on what they had left bringing in more revenue from pokie use whilst they still lose millions of $'s a year in their football club operations. With no stadium improvement and seemingly little new fan engagement investment its hard to see where their revenue will grow in line with majority of other clubs. On th eplus side they are a good brand that companies eem to like despite their very chequred recent history off the field. If they can sort out their culture then sponsors do seem to like them. Time will tell.

Manly will be interesting to see if an upgrade stadium helps or not, they seem to have a big problem of limited population reach and whilst a better stadium may add a few thousand to the crowd is there enough RL people with easy reach of it to get to the 15-17k avg min that clubs should be having? Hopefully they are investing in other sources of revenue for the future or they will be beholden to a new owner paying the bills when the current one carks it.

 

[Chippy73]

Hold the fk on, CRONULLA, your team basically fkd these guys, and had been doing it since inception, an inception they not agreed on, but help foster.. read up on how manly got in in 1947, no wonder bears fans, and most RL fans think manly are scum... and you're throwing shade on cronulla, weren't manly in the media not 2 years ago getting thrown around as the next big ol relocate?

lol... is Rocking Ronny back!?

 

[worstrugbyleagueplayereva]

Grew up in the North Shore area, the Bears will never have any good juniors coming through because living on the North Shore is full of Chinese and Indian migrants who do not follow rugby league. The most common sports would have to be social soccer and martial arts gyms. If you want to play rugby league in the north shore for a decent club you have to travel to the northern beaches or out west. Rugby union is Actually getting smaller every year since it is not compulsory to play rugby in the private schools anymore. The local schools that used to play rugby league have not played rugby league for decades and there is only one school in the entire North Shore that plays Rugby league and they get smashed 50 nil each game and do not have enough players to make up a team and no teachers want to coach a schoolboy team that gets smashed each week. Most of the best rugby union players from the north shore are usually on rugby scholarships and play for the Waratahs or go overseas when they leave school. Been to a Shute shield final 4 years ago at North Sydney Oval, even though its an old ground with nostalgia the stadium needs millions of dollars in upgrades to host an NRL game there ever again.

 

[Dragonwest]

If the Bears want to be nomads then they might as well pair up with Perth. It allows the remaining Bears supporters to go watch their team in Sydney still at least. Also having the Bears as a NSW Cup side would also help decrease running costs of the Perth based team and help supplement junior numbers to some small degree.