The Case for Adelaide.....

[Bring back John Fifita]

travel cost wont in reality your talking around $400k, which for a code with over $500million revenue is chump change.
Hindmarsh looks from the pics like hbf park before it had $120mill spent upgrading it.
Unless Adelaide gets a Very rich backer behind a bid it is highly unlikely. Nrl are an incredibly risk averse organisation.

Hindmarsh will be a 22k seater stadium as I’ve said before. Forget what it looks like now.

And $400k mightn’t seem much. But it isn’t “chump change”. And that’s just the extra cost estimate compared to an Adelaide franchise. And Purely on Sydney travel. Add on the extra legs of Newcastle / Canberra. And that’s just flights...

You’ve also got travel time. Many games played in Perth will require extra nights’ accomodation locally for visiting teams, as compared to Adelaide. Not to mention when Perth plays away.. Costs adding up further.

How this cost may be recovered largely depends on who would foot the bill. If Perth, then they are well and truly behind the 8-ball off the break. You’d hope the NRL would cover most, if not all of it - banking on the revenue for a 9th game from broadcast rights.. but the broadcasters would demand when Perth games are played to align with the East Coast time zones.

Putting games on in Perth that align with viewing times in the east count out a lot of slots. Friday / Saturday / Sunday late games (Perth time) for starters.

Anyway...

Perth do have a strong case for inclusion again ... But their biggest drawback has been, and will forever be.. proving to overcome the significant costs and complexities that come with their addition purely from a regional perspective.

Id love both the Rams and Reds back. And a conference-style system would possibly help overcome the draw complexities

 

[T-Boon]

If a team relocated to Adelaide would it work?

 

[taipan]

If a team relocated to Adelaide would it work?

The NRL would have to invest large sums in underpinning a new club plus money on grassroots there.Money which with the COVID crap around, is hard to come by.
How many companies are not going to be around once this is over, how many more people on long term unemployment? Who knows?

ATM call codes are concerned about is surviving, as well as people who contract this virus.

 

[Perth Red]

Hindmarsh will be a 22k seater stadium as I’ve said before. Forget what it looks like now.

And $400k mightn’t seem much. But it isn’t “chump change”. And that’s just the extra cost estimate compared to an Adelaide franchise. And Purely on Sydney travel. Add on the extra legs of Newcastle / Canberra. And that’s just flights...

You’ve also got travel time. Many games played in Perth will require extra nights’ accomodation locally for visiting teams, as compared to Adelaide. Not to mention when Perth plays away.. Costs adding up further.

How this cost may be recovered largely depends on who would foot the bill. If Perth, then they are well and truly behind the 8-ball off the break. You’d hope the NRL would cover most, if not all of it - banking on the revenue for a 9th game from broadcast rights.. but the broadcasters would demand when Perth games are played to align with the East Coast time zones.

Putting games on in Perth that align with viewing times in the east count out a lot of slots. Friday / Saturday / Sunday late games (Perth time) for starters.

Anyway...

Perth do have a strong case for inclusion again ... But their biggest drawback has been, and will forever be.. proving to overcome the significant costs and complexities that come with their addition purely from a regional perspective.

Id love both the Rams and Reds back. And a conference-style system would possibly help overcome the draw complexities

What upgrade is it getting? at moment looks to be severely lacking corporate facilities and covered seating. Looks a nice compact stadium though. A decent main stand with corporate facilities is $80mill plus. How much they spending on it for World Cup?

$400k is about 0.8% of nrl revenue, nothing really. Adelaide would cost half that so in reality a perth team is only going to cost nrl around $200k in travel more than an adelaide team, it’s nothing in the grand scheme of the nrl expenditure. That would be a generous estimate of total travel and accomodation costs given nrl would be getting bulk buying deals on flights and hotels. Maybe we could ask massive sports like netball and ice hockey how they manage it lol.

 

[Perth Red]

The NRL would have to invest large sums in underpinning a new club plus money on grassroots there.Money which with the COVID crap around, is hard to come by.
How many companies are not going to be around once this is over, how many more people on long term unemployment? Who knows?

ATM call codes are concerned about is surviving, as well as people who contract this virus.

nrl was in no place to expand pre covid due to the sht management and self interest the game is blightEd by, post Covid there isn’t a cat in hell’s chance!

 

[taipan]

nrl was in no place to expand pre covid due to the sht management and self interest the game is blightEd by, post Covid there isn’t a cat in hell’s chance!

Correct they were in no place, they didn't have the loot to do so.If you do so with limited funds ,it can blow up in your face.Wise decision.Seen enough waste in the NRL.
The AFL with all the money they had behind them, are looking at a huge cut in staff numbers at Head Office. Thus with all the look at how big I am, I own a stadium ,they still have to cut staff and reduce wages.
With all the people who pat them on the back and lick their boots, they are still vulnerable .And you can bet, the expansion teams will not be getting the largesse they have been getting.
"Self interest ",very club in every code is self interested ,in surviving.Hardly a scoop.That's why the Hawks and another club didn't merge ,though it was suggested ATT.And wanting a club ,at the expense of a Sydney club is f...ing self interest.

 

[MugaB]

I agree but there are people who let things happen, and there are those that make things happen.

I was truly hoping that with SOO in Adelaide, we’d be more in the discussion about a possible rebirth of the Rams etc. The Wuhan flu ruined all that of course..

But..

I really believe that the 2nd Brisbane team will be an advantage for either Adelaide or Perth to re-enter the comp one day..

A 17th team will give players a bye each round. And 18th side (granted we need player development to NRL-quality-levels) gives an extra 26 games a year. Bigger revenues from advertising, NRL rights etc..

And so where does that team come from?

Well it makes absolute sense to me it needs to me in a new market area bringing new eyeballs to the sport and on screens. So that narrows it down to 3 prospects..

Adelaide, Perth. And New Zealand Mk2.

With these, NZ will absolutely depend on whether the Warriors can get their shit in a sock and (finally) prove to be a sustainable success on n off the field.

I think it comes down to Perth and Adelaide.

Perth very much has the jump-start in terms of juniors, and advocates of the sport pushing their cause in the public arena. But they would need to overcome the expense of travel issue. And being on a 2-hour Timezone difference, there are only certain slots each round they could play in at home. Thursday night, Friday 6pm would be out. And vice versa, you’d want Perth eyeballs on the away games at a reasonable hour. This also impacts the slots for these games, forget Thursday, Friday 6pm, Saturday 2pm...

May seem minor but that can be very problematic in getting a draw together. Especially when the Warriors have many of the same needs... 2 hours ahead of the east coast. And a 4 hour difference between NZ and Perth..

Adelaide don’t have those same concerns. Closer to the east coast and a 30 min time difference, it’s better on travel and match time slots. But we’ve got sweet FA grassroots development.

Both have great rectangular stadiums, which will only improve given the 2023 World Cup..

So...

It may not be as unlikely as it seems. It’s just a matter of where and when.. and I think it’s a race in 2.. Many are pushing the Perth Barrow. No-one is pushing Adelaide. I’m only a bloke on a forum but getting this more and more out there... hopefully it’s gets talked up more in the media and people with some clout can run with it.

Unfortunately I can foresee where PVL and the commission are going with the 18th team, Brisbane 2 as no.17 was always a no brainer, suncorp every week, 18th has to be Auckland every week, might not be "NZ" team but it surely will be Auckland based, they want these games every week, and it might not look like expansion because these areas have teams already, but they are looking to get more content there where AFL isn't, and more often, i could see PVL push for brisbane 3 and NZ3 before any Adelaide or perth team too, i mean why is the commission pushing Gould into pathways of the Pacific Islands, if they aren't using it to build a team towards it. I could see the South Pacific Cyclones idea take off if its based in Auckland as the 2nd nz team, they saw tongan crowds at International matches, and said we want that every other week here in Auckland, and it can work with the Cyclones idea

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Unfortunately I can foresee where PVL and the commission are going with the 18th team, Brisbane 2 as no.17 was always a no brainer, suncorp every week, 18th has to be Auckland every week, might not be "NZ" team but it surely will be Auckland based, they want these games every week, and it might not look like expansion because these areas have teams already, but they are looking to get more content there where AFL isn't, and more often, i could see PVL push for brisbane 3 and NZ3 before any Adelaide or perth team too, i mean why is the commission pushing Gould into pathways of the Pacific Islands, if they aren't using it to build a team towards it. I could see the South Pacific Cyclones idea take off if its based in Auckland as the 2nd nz team, they saw tongan crowds at International matches, and said we want that every other week here in Auckland, and it can work with the Cyclones idea

You can foresee the future!!

Well can you please burn your tarot cards and purchase a new deck!

Anyway Muga it's definitely a possibility.

Regards to Gould and the pacific islands - I only see this as a concerted drive to get more Pacific Islander talent into the Rugby League pool, as compared to the more traditional Union path. Get more NRL quality players - you can expand to more teams in the comp without dropping quality. Gould has set up Penrith who are now churning quality juniors into the NRL who are well up to standard. He's the man for the gig to do all this..

In our traditional junior areas, we still need to develop talent but we are fighting for it ever more with the AFL invasion, and those kids who simply just drift away from playing the game at 12-13 years old. Many of course would drift away anyway, but the talented ones are getting scouted younger and younger...

As far as a dedicated Pacific Islands team in the NRL, I personally can't see it working purely on economics. So many costs apart from travel that I think would be very hard to recoup. Playing out of Auckland? Potentially would alleviate the cost burden and NZ has a more "favourable" comparison to the Aussie Dollar. But that still has a team playing away from who it represents..

A 2nd NZ team is a possibility.. but I personally think Perth would be in the box seat for the 18th team. For starters, Auckland is smaller than Perth by population - with a team already well established who averaged crowds between 12k to 17k (rounded) over the last 12 seasons. And Auckland is by far the biggest city in NZ... And only slightly bigger than Adelaide.

I also think Adelaide and Perth have the appeal of bringing new eyeballs to the game on TV.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

What upgrade is it getting? at moment looks to be severely lacking corporate facilities and covered seating. Looks a nice compact stadium though. A decent main stand with corporate facilities is $80mill plus. How much they spending on it for World Cup?

$400k is about 0.8% of nrl revenue, nothing really. Adelaide would cost half that so in reality a perth team is only going to cost nrl around $200k in travel more than an adelaide team, it’s nothing in the grand scheme of the nrl expenditure. That would be a generous estimate of total travel and accomodation costs given nrl would be getting bulk buying deals on flights and hotels. Maybe we could ask massive sports like netball and ice hockey how they manage it lol.

Re the redevelopment - the links I have are for subscriptions etc - so hard to quote.

The estimate is for 20-22k capacity once the upgrades are in place for the 2023 WC. Designs etc are still all tbc. However some of this has been spoken of as temporary seating.... So its the perfect opportunity now to push a case for Adelaide.. SOO was the vehicle too to bring Adelaide into the conversation. Bring more games here, make the capacity more attractive to be permanent, and ultimately the Rams could be reborn!


Anyway that's my view. But it'd take more than Bugseyes Davis in a demountable shed to fight the cause. And alas - the Covid disaster, and it's sequel thanks to Victoria could permanently squash Origin here for the foreseeable future.

As for costs.... I think it's far more than your estimate. I don't pretend to be an accountant but.. working through..

Last year - the average price for a return flight Perth-Sydney was around $900. I know this as I did the trip many times like others in my company. It could be more expensive depending on departure times. By comparison, Adelaide was $460 (similarly dependent on the time of departure). So Adelaide is roughly half the cost.

How many people would travel? I honestly wouldn't know the numbers but at a bare minimum it'd be 30. Made of of the 17 Starters, back up players, coaching staff, trainers.

How many rounds? Well Perth would only travel half the time - so lets say 13 rounds. But you've also got the same travel from teams coming in as an overall expense.

So - Flights per year = $900 x 30 people x 13 rounds.... $351,000. Then the same again for away teams overall. Total - approx $700k. And this is just based on Sydney. Brisbane, Gold Coast are slightly more expensive while Canberra, Newcastle, Townsville and NZ are significantly higher. So the overall travel cost to the NRL as a whole (whoever pays) could be upwards of $850,000-$900,000 per year.

To be viable, the addition Perth would have to generate significant enough revenue to offset that cost. And on pure maths, Adelaide would be about half the cost of Perth.

Indeed there may be concessions, discounts etc that can be had with sponsorships etc.

It's not to say Perth isn't viable, but more to say Travel is a very significant factor - and an advantage Adelaide has, despite drawbacks in other areas.

If it makes you happier though - I'm a jersey collector and my favourite acquisition is a Western Reds Jersey in mint condition - unworn. It cost me a bomb but it's the absolute jewel in the crown. And my favourite all-time jersey design. I hope to see it back in the comp one day..

 

[Perth Red]

Re the redevelopment - the links I have are for subscriptions etc - so hard to quote.

The estimate is for 20-22k capacity once the upgrades are in place for the 2023 WC. Designs etc are still all tbc. However some of this has been spoken of as temporary seating.... So its the perfect opportunity now to push a case for Adelaide.. SOO was the vehicle too to bring Adelaide into the conversation. Bring more games here, make the capacity more attractive to be permanent, and ultimately the Rams could be reborn!


Anyway that's my view. But it'd take more than Bugseyes Davis in a demountable shed to fight the cause. And alas - the Covid disaster, and it's sequel thanks to Victoria could permanently squash Origin here for the foreseeable future.

As for costs.... I think it's far more than your estimate. I don't pretend to be an accountant but.. working through..

Last year - the average price for a return flight Perth-Sydney was around $900. I know this as I did the trip many times like others in my company. It could be more expensive depending on departure times. By comparison, Adelaide was $460 (similarly dependent on the time of departure). So Adelaide is roughly half the cost.

How many people would travel? I honestly wouldn't know the numbers but at a bare minimum it'd be 30. Made of of the 17 Starters, back up players, coaching staff, trainers.

How many rounds? Well Perth would only travel half the time - so lets say 13 rounds. But you've also got the same travel from teams coming in as an overall expense.

So - Flights per year = $900 x 30 people x 13 rounds.... $351,000. Then the same again for away teams overall. Total - approx $700k. And this is just based on Sydney. Brisbane, Gold Coast are slightly more expensive while Canberra, Newcastle, Townsville and NZ are significantly higher. So the overall travel cost to the NRL as a whole (whoever pays) could be upwards of $850,000-$900,000 per year.

To be viable, the addition Perth would have to generate significant enough revenue to offset that cost. And on pure maths, Adelaide would be about half the cost of Perth.

Indeed there may be concessions, discounts etc that can be had with sponsorships etc.

It's not to say Perth isn't viable, but more to say Travel is a very significant factor - and an advantage Adelaide has, despite drawbacks in other areas.

If it makes you happier though - I'm a jersey collector and my favourite acquisition is a Western Reds Jersey in mint condition - unworn. It cost me a bomb but it's the absolute jewel in the crown. And my favourite all-time jersey design. I hope to see it back in the comp one day..

I do the flights to melbourne, sydney and Brisbane regularly, or did lol. As long as you book in advance and get the cheap seats you can do any of the three for $600 return and I’d expect nrl to get a discount on that with the travel partnerships they have.
nrl pay for 25 plays/staff for travel for first grade,

It really isn’t, like I said afl, netball, basketball, soccer, ice hockey, baseball, cricket, union etc etc all have perth clubs in national comps, and all but the afl operate on far less revenue than the nrl.

 

[magpie_man]

Having spent a decent amount of time visiting friends and family in the City of Churches, I have long been of the opinion that - whilst a tranquil and charming city in its own right - Adelaide is far too parochial and AFL-mesmerized to ever support an NRL franchise.
Sadly, I've had too many interactions with Adelaidians where asinine bile is vomited-up when there is even a mention of 'Rugby'.
That's just my personal experience though and you still present a compelling case BBJF.

 

[LeagueXIII]

If a team relocated to Adelaide would it work?

no

 

[reanimate]

Unfortunately I can foresee where PVL and the commission are going with the 18th team, Brisbane 2 as no.17 was always a no brainer, suncorp every week, 18th has to be Auckland every week, might not be "NZ" team but it surely will be Auckland based, they want these games every week, and it might not look like expansion because these areas have teams already, but they are looking to get more content there where AFL isn't, and more often, i could see PVL push for brisbane 3 and NZ3 before any Adelaide or perth team too, i mean why is the commission pushing Gould into pathways of the Pacific Islands, if they aren't using it to build a team towards it. I could see the South Pacific Cyclones idea take off if its based in Auckland as the 2nd nz team, they saw tongan crowds at International matches, and said we want that every other week here in Auckland, and it can work with the Cyclones idea

You could be right there. The benefit to Brisbane 2 is there's little work to do in regards to grassroots, pathways etc, it's already done. Plus, you get to have a game at Suncorp every week. NZ2 has similar benefits to Brisbane 2/3, the grassroots already exist (as does general rugby infrastructure; stadiums etc), the new team can pilfer the NZ Union ranks for more players and it would make RL in NZ stronger. I think NZ2 would go to Wellington over another Auckland team though, the travel arrangements for Australia-based teams are very similar. The two NZ teams would be a quick flight away, but I think NZ Derby games would probably be done via bus/coach, then they could take a few days to travel up/down and stop at towns on the way to visit schools, junior RL teams, do development etc.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

I do the flights to melbourne, sydney and Brisbane regularly, or did lol. As long as you book in advance and get the cheap seats you can do any of the three for $600 return and I’d expect nrl to get a discount on that with the travel partnerships they have.
nrl pay for 25 plays/staff for travel for first grade,

It really isn’t, like I said afl, netball, basketball, soccer, ice hockey, baseball, cricket, union etc etc all have perth clubs in national comps, and all but the afl operate on far less revenue than the nrl.

Wow who do you fly with? Tiger? On the redeye overnight?

Yeah if they book blocks ahead itd be cheaper. But the cities outside Sydney/Melb/Bris will be far tougher.

Yep they all have clubs in Perth. I'd have interested to know their financial performances and how they balance the travel.. who pays etc. Unless Twiggy Forrest bankrolls it all...?

 

[Perth Red]

Wow who do you fly with? Tiger? On the redeye overnight?

Yeah if they book blocks ahead itd be cheaper. But the cities outside Sydney/Melb/Bris will be far tougher.

Yep they all have clubs in Perth. I'd have interested to know their financial performances and how they balance the travel.. who pays etc. Unless Twiggy Forrest bankrolls it all...?

nope qantas red e seats, as long as your booking around 4 months in advance $600 is the norm. You can currently get a return flight per to syd in a few months time at decent flight time for $524 return.

 

[taipan]

All the other codes in Perth would have players and costs far far less than the NRL would have.Based on our min salary and those of top line players alone.
Even the Super Union mob considered the Force a financial millstone around their neck.Without the financials of Twiggy behind union there ,they'd be up the hill.
I have a bro-in-law who moved to Perth a few years back to be with his son and family who were already there, and he rarely visits the east, because air fares are too f....in expensive.

Let me also suggest that airlines will not be as accommodating with deals as they once were.Why? Because COVID has sat them on their a*se, and they need to make decent money to recoup losses and repay loans after virus crap is over, red rover.

 

[Perth Red]

All the other codes in Perth would have players and costs far far less than the NRL would have.Based on our min salary and those of top line players alone.
Even the Super Union mob considered the Force a financial millstone around their neck.Without the financials of Twiggy behind union there ,they'd be up the hill.
I have a bro-in-law who moved to Perth a few years back to be with his son and family who were already there, and he rarely visits the east, because air fares are too f....in expensive.

Let me also suggest that airlines will not be as accommodating with deals as they once were.Why? Because COVID has sat them on their a*se, and they need to make decent money to recoup losses and repay loans after virus crap is over, red rover.

we’re talking about travel costs, which would be similiar for other codes depending on squad sizes.Other codes with far less revenue manage to cover them for PERTH teams.
Strangely flights in advance are actually cheapest I’ve ever seen them at the moment. Might change as things open up and losses try to be recouped,, or might not as they try and encourage people to travel again, who knows?

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

nope qantas red e seats, as long as your booking around 4 months in advance $600 is the norm. You can currently get a return flight per to syd in a few months time at decent flight time for $524 return.

The red eye (overnight) is a nightmare flight from experience and others I know who've done it. Leaving 10.40pm to arrive 5.30am etc (which is actually a 5hr flight), losing 2hrs in timezone changes (or 3 hours in Daylight Saving time) can knock people rotten. I'd never do it again.

Currently everything is cheap within Oz. Saw last week I could fly to Cairns for $120. I'll be interested to see how flight costs pan out once (or hopefully when...) all this Covid crap goes away. Hopefully flights are cheaper for all of course.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Having spent a decent amount of time visiting friends and family in the City of Churches, I have long been of the opinion that - whilst a tranquil and charming city in its own right - Adelaide is far too parochial and AFL-mesmerized to ever support an NRL franchise.
Sadly, I've had too many interactions with Adelaidians where asinine bile is vomited-up when there is even a mention of 'Rugby'.
That's just my personal experience though and you still present a compelling case BBJF.

All good mate. We've all got our experiences and opinions. All are as valid as the next person.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Perth Red is a curiosity. He bangs on about NRL clubs requiring $30 million a year to survive and death rides Sydney and Brisbane 3.

Where does he think an NRL team in a mid-sized fumbleball city that's as parochial to that game as it gets is going to get that dough?

Minor sports can do it as they don't require $30 million a year to field a team and aren't the arch nemesis of the biggest code in town.

An ARL Commissioner said unless Twiggy Forrest throws $200 million at it then no team for Perth. PVL is deadset against Perth and said as much.

Perth will not do for the NRL what Brisbane and Sydney have done for AwFuL.