Thorman in England A team

[The Colonel]

Maturity isn't generally an age thing. Firman would have been playing grade two years ago had he not injured in shoulder.

Witt shows a lot more maturity than some of the experienced players in the team at times.

 

[PB]

I wonder how Dykes would go as a hooker? Once upon a time, he was regarded as one of the better defenders in the comp. Perhpas if he could regain that, and pick up some more speed, he owuld be handy coming off the bench to hook. Because if Thorman is good, i cant see where he will fit in as Smith will stick with Dykes and Witt regardless.

 

[The Colonel]

I wonder how Dykes would go as a hooker? Once upon a time, he was regarded as one of the better defenders in the comp. Perhpas if he could regain that, and pick up some more speed, he owuld be handy coming off the bench to hook. Because if Thorman is good, i cant see where he will fit in as Smith will stick with Dykes and Witt regardless.

I think you will find Thorman will come off the bench in a similar role to what PJ Marsh did in 2001 and Dunley and Webster did last year. He is pretty quick out of dummy half which makes me wonder why he wasn't selected when Cunningham was injured.

 

[Hollywood Jesus]

Suity

On form=position, generally what you said is the case. But it is not always. Sometimes a player's experience is just as important as their form, and having someone on the field to calm down the youngins and so forth can be invaluable.

Let's just say that Hindy plays crap for a month, like real bad. Does that mean he gets shafted? No way in hell, because a) you know what the guy can do and b) You need someone like Hindy or Caylo or whoever on there so kids like Tsoulous and Armit have a steadying influence on them.

Now no one is totally exempt from being dropped, but there are many occasions when an out of form player needs to be cut some slack and retained juist as there are many times when an out of form players needs a stint in reggies to regain confidence.

To lay a blanket rule on the situation to cover every possibility before it has arisen is not logical. You need to take every particular instance on its own and make a decision without regards to past or future scenarios that are similar.

 

[Pazza]

i dont see the reason for the big debate??

Dykes is usually injuried leaving Witt at Halfback and Thorman in 5/8!

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Not a hell of a lot of difference actually apart fom games played.

Firman was pretty much the only playmaker the Dragons had after Barrett was injured during the sevens and then halfway through the year. He had his moments but he had to be the go to man from day one. Witt didn't have to be when he made his debut and he showed enough glimpses especially against Souths, Dragons and Broncos to show he can play.

But if Firman was so outstanding why did the Dragons not make the eight?

I'll agree Witt hasn't done anything overly spectacular but he hasn't done anything wrong either. He had a competent debut year and with any luck can grow from that.

Not a hell of a lot of difference actually apart fom games played.

What??.....Firman would have been rookie of the year if it hadn't of been for the boycott!!, M Witt was now where in sight for the award & even if he played the 24 games instead of 17 he wouldn't of had a hope in hell of getting close to such an award with Firman there.....there not only my opinions there also the general concencous!!

Firman was pretty much the only playmaker the Dragons had after Barrett was injured during the sevens and then halfway through the year. He had his moments but he had to be the go to man from day one.

You still need to posses the necasary qualities to be a fine First Grade RL player & as a playmaker you need to posses leadership qualities which for a 21 year old Firman was a massive task with such names around him.

Firman had more then his moments....he consistently had moments through out the year which is why he was virtually in the top 5 for points for the Daily M's all year!

Witt didn't have to be when he made his debut and he showed enough glimpses especially against Souths, Dragons and Broncos to show he can play

I don't understand this comment??.....a player doesn't need to be a play maker to make an impact on a game!...he just has to provide options in attack, a decent kicking & running game & sound in defense!!, Michael did well for us defensively i felt & his goal kicking was great for such a tender age however..his running game, general kicking, options & organisational skills on many occasions where abysmall!!.....Now im willing to let it go due to his age & lack of experience but?? i expect him to rapidly improve next year & year after that!!, Firman possesed all these qualities & more with such a great side around him on occasions with the Saints this year eg Man of the Match vs Brisbane at Wollongong.

But if Firman was so outstanding why did the Dragons not make the eight?

To lay the blame on Firman for not making the 8 is very harsh considering Saint George's massive injury toll this year which some have said there worst in history!!

I remember Parra not making the semi's in 87,88,89,90 with Peter Sterling at the helm.....yet he still managed to Rothams Medal's in that time....the performances of Parra in these years where not the fault of Sterlo but?? the team around him!!.....one player doesn't make the team!...there's 16 other players who have to perform to there best of there abilities week in week out just so the side can win......a very harsh call on Firman that!!

 

[The Colonel]

Michael did well for us defensively i felt & his goal kicking was great for such a tender age however..his running game, general kicking, options & organisational skills on many occasions where abysmall!!.....

For a team that was travelling as well as what it was to pin the hopes of the whole season on a 19 year old finding his feet in grade is a big ask. You say your willing to give him a chance next year but he has to rapidly improve in the next year and the next. The kid is 19. Firman at 21 would have been playing first grade at 19 if not for injuries that slowed his progress. I am sure that people would have given him a decent chance to show his talents at 19 rather than expect rapid improvement.

With an experienced 5/8 outside him Witt doesn't and didn't have to come in and run the club from day dot. Firman did. This was what I was talking about. Witt has shown enough to be given a deal over four years. Thorman has been given one. This says to me someone has an idea that you obviously don't?

Firman did have his moments however Witt managed to play all over the top of him when they played with the help of those around him. Firman did poll quite well in the Dally M's but we don't know how well he polled in later rounds when the voting went "silent" do we? Having watched many of his games in the latter half of the season I would think he would have struggled to pick up a lot of points. We also would not have seen how many points Mickey had the chance to pick up in the latter stages either? And personally I would have seen him pick up a few ones and twos in some of our games.

When Witt was able to start to form a combination with Dykes despite being quiet he was a lot more confident.

As for injuries - according to many people on this board this is not an excuse to be used for missing the eight. Sure the Dragons did have quite a few players missing but they also had quite a few others play right up until the last game of the season.

 

[Redback71]

i know its hard to do but can we please stop whinging about our last season think of the positives and of next season what potential there is for a great season alot of the baggage is gone and a lot of potential tallant has come in to the side guys who r eager and hungrey for a first grade spot with this competion within the ranks we can only improve our performance just like 2001 when we had so much tallant not everyone had a spot in first grade. lets hope the eels management is more like channel ten and not channel 9 who let a great tallant like rove go only to be snapped up by channel 10. ;-)

 

[Stagger eel]

Any fairdinkum supporter who knows a lot about the game would tell you that Firman is by far and away a more superior all round player than Witt there shouldn't be any arguments there. However the word Abysmall is too strng a word to use on Witt. I think Micheal's problem is his lack of creativety in attack which I believe will improve in time, but he is a different sort of halfback to most running around in the comp. He's quite big boy has a powerful leg strength and his front on defence improved everyweek and that showed in the Penrith game. But as everyone has pointed out previously at 19 his still a bit of a unknown package. He will be if he isn't allready a permanent first grader but it remains to be seen as to what type of player he may actually turn out to beI believe just about all will be revealed at age 22 or 23.

I also think it's vital that players like Tim Smith, James Webster, Adam Dykes, Chris Thorman and maybe even Dane Queenan puts a lot of pressure on Witty to perform in that position. And would of even gone as far as to try and sign anoth half back at a cheap rate to add more pressure on the youngster players like Ben Black [ Bears] , Joe Williams [Roosters], Brett Oliver [ Dogs] and Kieran Kerr [Dragons] could provide that.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Michael did well for us defensively i felt & his goal kicking was great for such a tender age however..his running game, general kicking, options & organisational skills on many occasions where abysmall!!.....

For a team that was travelling as well as what it was to pin the hopes of the whole season on a 19 year old finding his feet in grade is a big ask. You say your willing to give him a chance next year but he has to rapidly improve in the next year and the next. The kid is 19. Firman at 21 would have been playing first grade at 19 if not for injuries that slowed his progress. I am sure that people would have given him a decent chance to show his talents at 19 rather than expect rapid improvement.

With an experienced 5/8 outside him Witt doesn't and didn't have to come in and run the club from day dot. Firman did. This was what I was talking about. Witt has shown enough to be given a deal over four years. Thorman has been given one. This says to me someone has an idea that you obviously don't?

Firman did have his moments however Witt managed to play all over the top of him when they played with the help of those around him. Firman did poll quite well in the Dally M's but we don't know how well he polled in later rounds when the voting went "silent" do we? Having watched many of his games in the latter half of the season I would think he would have struggled to pick up a lot of points. We also would not have seen how many points Mickey had the chance to pick up in the latter stages either? And personally I would have seen him pick up a few ones and twos in some of our games.

When Witt was able to start to form a combination with Dykes despite being quiet he was a lot more confident.

As for injuries - according to many people on this board this is not an excuse to be used for missing the eight. Sure the Dragons did have quite a few players missing but they also had quite a few others play right up until the last game of the season.

For a team that was travelling as well as what it was to pin the hopes of the whole season on a 19 year old finding his feet in grade is a big ask. You say your willing to give him a chance next year but he has to rapidly improve in the next year and the next. The kid is 19. Firman at 21 would have been playing first grade at 19 if not for injuries that slowed his progress. I am sure that people would have given him a decent chance to show his talents at 19 rather than expect rapid improvement

He would then be 21 & have had almost 3 full years of First Grade!....i think that's enough time these days to show your genuine First Grade material.

Players are making the grade younger & younger these days & there is always new talent comming through.....im sure another fine player half will emerge in the next couple of years for Parra.

I never pinned my hopes on Witt...just the others around him!.

Witt has shown enough to be given a deal over four years. Thorman has been given one. This says to me someone has an idea that you obviously don't?

As far as im concerned no one with the exception of SOO & International players are worthy of a 4 year contract these days!!....that was ludicrous!, Blokes like Armit & Tslsous who i feel will provide more to our side in future years where only offered 2 year deals :?, i would of offered Witt a 2 year deal with the potential for a significant upgrade if he played x amount of first grade games and see how he wen't!......4 year contracts at his age are to risky for mine!!....just look at Danny Sulivan!

Im sure Thorman also has a year option aswell on his contract....and besides Witt was signed well before Thorman signed!, to lure an English player these days they virtually have to play for peanuts & that's why not many poms make the journey here & stay in the Super league to earn better money!!

Firman did have his moments however Witt managed to play all over the top of him when they played with the help of those around him. Firman did poll quite well in the Dally M's but we don't know how well he polled in later rounds when the voting went "silent" do we? Having watched many of his games in the latter half of the season I would think he would have struggled to pick up a lot of points. We also would not have seen how many points Mickey had the chance to pick up in the latter stages either? And personally I would have seen him pick up a few ones and twos in some of our games.

He did play all over him....however this performance was a great team effort & we completely dominated the Saints through our forwards on this night!.....had we not had the go forward & quick play the balls i'd say the Saints & inparticular Firman would have played a whole lot better.....Half backs are generally only as good as there go forward.

Witt would not have picked up points in the games against Penrith, Melbourne, Crounulla, Brisbane.

As for injuries - according to many people on this board this is not an excuse to be used for missing the eight. Sure the Dragons did have quite a few players missing but they also had quite a few others play right up until the last game of the season

Trent Barrett, Shaun Timmins, Jason Ryles, Lance Thompson, Mark Gasnier etc spent the majority of the year on the sidelines..anyside who looses the calibre of these players for the majority of the year will always struggle!.....i think thats a fair enough excuse for why they didn't make the 8.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

Any fairdinkum supporter who knows a lot about the game would tell you that Firman is by far and away a more superior all round player than Witt there shouldn't be any arguments there. However the word Abysmall is too strng a word to use on Witt. I think Micheal's problem is his lack of creativety in attack which I believe will improve in time, but he is a different sort of halfback to most running around in the comp. He's quite big boy has a powerful leg strength and his front on defence improved everyweek and that showed in the Penrith game. But as everyone has pointed out previously at 19 his still a bit of a unknown package. He will be if he isn't allready a permanent first grader but it remains to be seen as to what type of player he may actually turn out to beI believe just about all will be revealed at age 22 or 23.

I also think it's vital that players like Tim Smith, James Webster, Adam Dykes, Chris Thorman and maybe even Dane Queenan puts a lot of pressure on Witty to perform in that position. And would of even gone as far as to try and sign anoth half back at a cheap rate to add more pressure on the youngster players like Ben Black [ Bears] , Joe Williams [Roosters], Brett Oliver [ Dogs] and Kieran Kerr [Dragons] could provide that.

I think your right about the word "Abysmall "....maybe this was a touch strong...perhaps inconsistent is the better choice of words to describe these performances.

Besides this i agree with virtually everything you say eelavation!...he is a different sort of half which isn't a bad thing.

I still maintain in this say & age...if your not a consistent first grade player by 21,22 then you don't have the potential to go very far in First Grade.

 

[eloquentEEL]

As far as im concerned no one with the exception of SOO & International players are worthy of a 4 year contract these days!!....that was ludicrous!, Blokes like Armit & Tslsous who i feel will provide more to our side in future years where only offered 2 year deals :?, i would of offered Witt a 2 year deal with the potential for a significant upgrade if he played x amount of first grade games and see how he wen't!......4 year contracts at his age are to risky for mine!!....just look at Danny Sulivan!

Ron, there is so much wrong with this paragraph that I don't know where to start.

Firstly, SOO players should not be considered worthy of 4 year contracts. Can you imagine if Parra signed Hodgo to a 4 year contract?

Secondly, with Witt, you have to look at the upside of taking that risk. I'm sure his 4 year deal was relatively cheap. What if we signed him to a one year deal, he turns into a superstar next season and then we have to let him go because we can't afford to keep him? If you want a real shot at the title, not just being a top 8 team every year, you have to take a few risks.

And just to be picky, I'm pretty sure Tsoulos was signed to a 3 year deal.

And finally, completely off the topic, I noticed that Suity changed BD5733 to "BD-NUMBERS". Turn the numbers upside down and you'll see why I consider Suity's modification to be sacrilige... take it back Suity. ;-)

 

[Twizzle]

Firstly, SOO players should not be considered worthy of 4 year contracts. Can you imagine if Parra signed Hodgo to a 4 year contract?

The same could be said for Michael Vella. He needs to prove in 2004, that he is not a flash in the pan. For last years effort, he was overpaid.

I agree that signing Witt for 4 year is a bit of an over reaction. He does not have a great deal of speed, and is yet to prove himself over a consistent period of time (or at least one full season).

I think its a sign that Parra are desperate to find a good No 7.

If Thorman slots very well into the No 7 next year, we've got a very expensive premmy league half back.

Witt could do a Hodgo, or heaven forbid, a Danny Sullivan.

4 year contracts should ba saved for the elite like Lyon and Hindy.

 

[The Colonel]

[quote="Twizzle] If Thorman slots very well into the No 7 next year, we've got a very expensive premmy league half back.
[/quote]

Judging by the fact that Thorman has played and is playing much of his football at the present moment out of 5/8 and dummy half as well suggesting we could well have a highly paid 5/8 in reggies - more importantly a player who is dangerous anywhere on the park.

Witt could also be a Lyon, Cayless or god bless him another Peter Sterling.

The greatest halfbacks of the last twenty to thirty years - Sterling, Stuart, Langer and Raudonikis (I didn't include Mortimer because he can run) weren't the quickest footballers running around. They did however possess the "smarts" upstairs. This is something that thankfully despite his young age Michael does have.

Four years to develop - not a bad investment should he go the way of Lyon or Hindmarsh.

 

[Misty Bee]

The starting halves combo should be Dykes and Witt. Smith and Thorman should shadow them. Simple.

Tim Witt shuold be given a shot at top grade. He blitzed 'em playing for the junior 'roos a few years back.

Thiorman, I know nothing about. However, if he is keeping rob Burrow out of rep sides, then he must be good, Burrow has got Pommy testplayer written all over him.

 

[bartman]

The good thing is that we will have tested options in all of these playmaker positions, should injury/bad form occur.

Having given Witt and Webster time in First Grade last year means that we can rely on them if/when needed in 2004. On that logic, Smith should be a shadow player this year if needed through long term injuries etc.

But I still think all four (Thorman, Dykes, Witt, Morris) will be in the 17 each week, with one off the bench. Let's hope this keeps the pressure on for good form all the year through.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

As far as im concerned no one with the exception of SOO & International players are worthy of a 4 year contract these days!!....that was ludicrous!, Blokes like Armit & Tslsous who i feel will provide more to our side in future years where only offered 2 year deals :?, i would of offered Witt a 2 year deal with the potential for a significant upgrade if he played x amount of first grade games and see how he wen't!......4 year contracts at his age are to risky for mine!!....just look at Danny Sulivan!

Ron, there is so much wrong with this paragraph that I don't know where to start.

Firstly, SOO players should not be considered worthy of 4 year contracts. Can you imagine if Parra signed Hodgo to a 4 year contract?

Secondly, with Witt, you have to look at the upside of taking that risk. I'm sure his 4 year deal was relatively cheap. What if we signed him to a one year deal, he turns into a superstar next season and then we have to let him go because we can't afford to keep him? If you want a real shot at the title, not just being a top 8 team every year, you have to take a few risks.

And just to be picky, I'm pretty sure Tsoulos was signed to a 3 year deal.

And finally, completely off the topic, I noticed that Suity changed BD5733 to "BD-NUMBERS". Turn the numbers upside down and you'll see why I consider Suity's modification to be sacrilige... take it back Suity. ;-)

Ron, there is so much wrong with this paragraph that I don't know where to start.

No one is right or wrong in this regard....it's just an matter of opinion.

Firstly, SOO players should not be considered worthy of 4 year contracts. Can you imagine if Parra signed Hodgo to a 4 year contract?

Can you imagine if we resgined Hindmarsh & Lyon to further 4 year deals??....i don't no about you but i'd be pretty estactic!!

Secondly, with Witt, you have to look at the upside of taking that risk. I'm sure his 4 year deal was relatively cheap. What if we signed him to a one year deal, he turns into a superstar next season and then we have to let him go because we can't afford to keep him? If you want a real shot at the title, not just being a top 8 team every year, you have to take a few risks.

I'd never suggest signing him to a 1 year deal....my suggestion was to sign him to a 2 year deal with great incentives for playing x amount of first grade games.....i think this was reasonable.

There's only a handfull of current youngsters that i'd consider signing to a 4 year deal....Marshall, Firman!!....Witt isn't in the same league as both these players....and even that would be stretching it!.

I don't think he'd be on bad money but by guessing an interview i read of his...he pretty much imediately signed the deal!, it must have been a very reasonable deal imo.

And just to be picky, I'm pretty sure Tsoulos was signed to a 3 year deal.

I think you may be right on this one....when i think about it i think he was signed to a 3 year deal, Armit was definately 2 years though.

 

[The Colonel]

There's only a handfull of current youngsters that i'd consider signing to a 4 year deal....Marshall, Firman!!....Witt isn't in the same league as both these players....and even that would be stretching it!.

Firman is one of the next superstars of the game. However RJ, I think you have been caught up in all the hype surrounding Marshall. He has no defence, has a step and is IMO very small for league - especially to be pinning the hopes of the Tigers team on. He was found wanting in the Arrive Alive Cup on quite a few occassions. Witt may not be in Firman's league yet but Marshall has a lot more to prove than Witt thats for sure. Marshall has the makings of a good player however his longevity will rest oon how he well he can sustain the week to week pressure on a small frame.

 

[Ron Jeremy]

There's only a handfull of current youngsters that i'd consider signing to a 4 year deal....Marshall, Firman!!....Witt isn't in the same league as both these players....and even that would be stretching it!.

Firman is one of the next superstars of the game. However RJ, I think you have been caught up in all the hype surrounding Marshall. He has no defence, has a step and is IMO very small for league - especially to be pinning the hopes of the Tigers team on. He was found wanting in the Arrive Alive Cup on quite a few occassions. Witt may not be in Firman's league yet but Marshall has a lot more to prove than Witt thats for sure. Marshall has the makings of a good player however his longevity will rest oon how he well he can sustain the week to week pressure on a small frame.

Yeah perhaps your right in regards to Marshall, look....he has all the ball skills & has a great step but he has looked paper thin in defense.

I guess maybe because he is 17 and already had some good games in Firsts is the reason why i suggested signing him to a 4 year deal.....change it to a three year deal.