Thurston Value?

[The Pain Game]

I think people in here don't appreciate the value of JT to the team. All this talk about Payne being more important to the team does not make much sense to me, and I like Payney as the TSV bred player. Last year's finals was a result of our inability to win on the road - even when Payney was there, we were terrible on the road! Imagine if it were JT out for the season instead of Payney?...I can already hear the excuse that he dominates the ball too much so there are no other plays. Serious? Due to representative games, JT starts the pre-season late every year, yet we don't have any other plays with anybody else?
Look at origin times when we still have had Bowen and Payne, and we can be disgraceful unless playing the wooden spoon roosters last year. At least we were competitive for 65 minutes with Thurston there and not Payne.

He always seems to cop it from those who say he is on too much. He is not on $700k, or millions, as people say (just yet anyway) and there are other players at other clubs earning just as much (and the Storm cap issue comes to mind too). IMO, there is a lot of the salary cap left, yet he cops the blame, even though our management's decision to sign Webb, Graham, Manukafoa, Southern, LOD (although he is a good player but a liability) and a few others to decent coin is the reason we can't put decent (I didn't say classy) players around him. If JT took a pay-cut, what is to say we would not recruit worse players around him?

A lot of people hate the guys attitude, but he actually wants to win every game for the club, yet people out there use it against him to suggest he is a bad sportsmen when losing. Some suggest he is not that good because the Cowboys have missed the finals two times in a row, but I am not convinced Andrew Johns could do better with our current backline and run of injuries (minus Bowen). Newcastle had a decent (not great) players around him. JT does not even have that, or a hooker or fullback at the moment. Hindsight will give a better analysis of Thurston v Johns, but put some decent players around him and we will be playing finals footy a hell of a lot more!

 

[The Pain Game]

I can also hear, the Cowboys made the finals in 2004. But we pretty much fluked it that year, even though we nearly ended up winning the competition.

 

[elyod138]

If we fluked it any year it was 2005 IMO.

We made it so far in 2004 because the team was playing with heart and they were playing for each other.

In 2005 it was a couple of players individual brilliance that was getting us over the line, coupled with a lot of other teams falling apart at the last hurdle.


Payne is capable of getting the whole team on a roll, Thurston takes advantage of it.

That's not a knock on Thurston, that's just how we play.

Last year we were 5th on the ladder before Payne was injured, then everything fell apart.

 

[StinkyPete]

yeah what eloyd said.

 

[perverse]

similar to Johns and Buderus really... neither had a great record playing without the other once buderus had hit first grade (although a lot of Johns legend was already written by that stage).

similar in concept, anyway. Thurston is no Johns... and Payne is no Buderus. i'm not here to start a debate on that issue, though... no-ones mind will be changed on the topic.

 

[Charlie124]

I believe that if Thurston decides to leave our club, we will be better off in 1 or 2 seasons time with the money we can spread around our roster. I could not say the same if Payne left the club.

As far as value to our club goes, Payne is more valuable than Thurston.

 

[Big Pete]

Definitely Charlie. The Cowboys future is looking strong though. If your juniors can take the next step up I believe your club will be on it's way to it's maiden premiership.

 

[beave]

I can also hear, the Cowboys made the finals in 2004. But we pretty much fluked it that year, even though we nearly ended up winning the competition.

Don't talk sh*t Josh, 2004 as mentioned by Eloyd, we played like a team in the last 3rd of the season and into the finals. The 2004 is the type of team I wish we would play like at the moment, working for each other, no superstars, just good honest, no nonsense footballers. Don't underplay how good that team was mate, that side would put 20 on us now and not let us score a point, they would flog the 2010 side IMO.


We have too many has beens/never weres

Webb
Graham
Bani
Williams
Ty
Southern
Rovelli
Manukafoa
Kaufusi

the list could go on, we need to get rid of these blokes and get some hungry lads up here, though f#$k knows who we can buy as replacements???

 

[Talanexor]

I think Thurston has really been coasting along this season. Whether that's his fault or Henry's one-dimensional game plan I don't know.

Thurston has one kick - one kick - that he's used all season, the low trajectory punt into the corner, that never seems to quite make it there. His short kicking game has been abysmal this season.

I haven't seen him use a bomb or a cross field kick. I haven't seen him use the right side, or throw a cutout pass to a winger all season. I can't justify 700K a season if he's going to keep that rubbish up, especially if his shoulders start playing up.

I think he's a very talented footballer. I don't want to hold up Payne as an idol either, it wasn't so long ago many of us were wanting to get rid of him in favour of Watts (2008 anyone?)

Once we get Bowen, Thompson, JT and Thurston all back on the field at once, and we start working on combinations, then I think we'll start to look a lot better.

But as you mentioned TPG, 500K actually isn't as much of the cap as some people make it out to be. I believe Lockyer and Prince are on similar money, and they can still afford a decent team around those guys with the leftover money. We have a lot of dead wood that needs clearing out though.

 

[hunters]

I believe Lockyer and Prince are on similar money, and they can still afford a decent team around those guys

There's a decent team around lockyer?

 

[Talanexor]

Not at the moment, but there has been for a good while before now. They won the premiership in 2006 remember? That isn't so long ago.

Guys like Civenoceva, Webcke, Stagg, Hannant, Ennis, Hunt, Thaiday, Carroll, Berrigan, Boyd, Hodges, Wallace. All rep players.

We have Tonga, Scott, Bolton and Mason. That's all.

If we got rid of some underperforming players we'd free up a lot of money.

 

[Charlie124]

Not at the moment, but there has been for a good while before now. They won the premiership in 2006 remember? That isn't so long ago.

Guys like Civenoceva, Webcke, Stagg, Hannant, Ennis, Hunt, Thaiday, Carroll, Berrigan, Boyd, Hodges, Wallace. All rep players.

We have Tonga, Scott, Bolton and Mason. That's all.

If we got rid of some underperforming players we'd free up a lot of money.

Payne, O'Donnell and Bowen go alright.... :sarcasm:

If you're just talking about rep players without taking their actual quality into account then we've also had Lillyman, Heggarty, T Williams, Webb, Kaufusi to name a few.

The roster (for the most part) isnt our problem, its injuries coupled with our sh*tty attitude and lack of self belief that is costing us season after season

 

[Talanexor]

Yeah but Charlie, if anyone knew how to fix attitude, we wouldn't be stuck at the bottom of the table.

I do think we need a motivator at the club. Henry isn't the greatest public speaker in the world, and I don't think he really knows how to fire up a footy side. Coaches who get the best out of their players - even those without much talent - are the ones who win premierships. Sadly, this is an area that henry has really struggled with.

 

[Newcastle Cow]

Great Post Pain Game, I agree completely

Look does JT have bad games or are there areas of his game that could use some improvement? Sure. Is he overrated in some circles? Probably. Is this whole circus with his contract annoying? Absolutely.

BUT he is an elite player and a fierce motherf**ker of a competitor, who wants to win every game he plays for our club and, as much as many of us hate it, the vast majority of games we’ve won in recent seasons have been largely thanks to him. I also cant understand these claims that “we’d be better off without him” “Payne is more valuable” “he’s not a team player” etc. As the original post said he misses at least some games every year, who stands up when he is out? Nobody, that’s who.

My basic point is that JT is one of the few players at the club who doesn’t need a long hard look at himself and we are right to be doing everything we can to keep him. Is it JT dropping off huge amounts of tackles every week? Does JT stop our forwards from beating tackles and barging over or popping an offload to a support player? (that’s assuming we have any support players). Is JT responsible for the lack of evasiveness, speed or defensive ability of our backline? (Tonga excepted obviously)

When we’ve stopped pissing away good amounts of money on players who aren’t up to it, or don’t want to be, then talk to me about how much of a waste JT is. When we see him playing with a fully-fit Payne, Bowen and a more-experienced Thompson, we’ll see why we are paying him what we are

 

[Big Pete]

Firstly, Cowboys fans should be grateful towards Thurston for all of his efforts. I don't think he's the most talented player in the competition, in fact I don't think he's the most talented half in the competition. What he does have on his side is his attitude. He's not afraid to back himself and you'll always see him in the midst of everything whether it'll be scoring a try, breaking a tackle, chasing, making a tackle he's not afraid to try anything. The problem is, to rely on him, especially when he's as burnt out as he is, simply put is foolish.

Now, it's not Thurston's fault you're not performing. There are bigger problems.

First of all, the Cowboys are missing a key player in Matt Bowen. It's no coincidence the last time the Cowboys were performing was when he was at his best. In fact, the best performance last year came when Bowen played his best game, you guys might remember it, it was against the Titans.

Factor in Thurston, Payne and O'Donnell playing little to no game time and it's no surprise to see the Cowboys struggling.

Secondly, there are a number of players underperforming.

At the top of that list are your forwards. It may surprise you to see that but it's true, the Cowboys just don't have any other forwards in the middle of the ruck, other than Mat Scott who can gain inroads on the opposition and condense the defence. Who's to blame? Obviously Kafusi, Webb and Manuokafoa. The moment you can find a partner for Scott is the moment your side will challenge some of the top sides in the competition.

Then there's the backline. Simply put, you just don't have the troops there to be dangerous. Tonga is a good player but he can't do it by himself. John Williams has been dissapointing, the likes of Bani, Tupou, and Ty Williams just simply aren't up to it or if they are, they're going to have to be passengers.

Then there's the case of Thursto's halves partner. I do believe Thompson is your best option there, Morgan too if he can make the step up from the Toyota Cup.

As for Henry, it's very hard to judge him. He inherited a side that was on the bottom of the ladder and had a number of issues. I feel it's far too early to judge him just yet. Lets see where the Cowboys up when he serves his contract?

 

[Shorty]

This 'relying on Thurston' mentality, is it actually true though?
I don't think it is, I think that Thurston's dominance on the field impacts in such a way that the players are unsure of their role at times.
This isn't a lazy team, they're full of errors and indecision which means they have confidence issues and I think they have issues with their confidence for a reason.

2004 was not a fluke, 2005 was by far a more likely contender for that.
I am grateful for all that Thurston has gave and done for this team but his value is no more than Aaron Payne or Matt Bowen.
If the last 2 years hasn't shown people that then they won't ever acknowledge that.
That might not be a popular opinion but it's the truth and perhaps if this was acknowledged ALL ROUND, that means in the sheds and in training as well then we might be doing something.

2004 has a distinct difference to the other 2 finals series campaigns.
They played like a team, they believed in each other.

 

[The Pain Game]

I see 2004 as the fluke. Making the finals wasn't, but how far we progressed was. We did not show any of that until the finals, and we were lucky the Broncs gave us the home ground advantage too. In 2005, we set ourselves high expectations, added to our roster and finished much higher on the ladder, and before the Tigers belted us, we expected to go along way, or at least I did. We had a rought patch in the middle because of how many players were in origin, and because we choked a bit when sitting first on the ladder (used to being the underdog).

Regarding Thurston not being there, I understand how it can be a loss in attack, but why are we so bad in defence? Is it because we try our defence too hard thinking we have no attack in us and have to win through defence? Are Scott and Payne too nice to give players a serve? You'd think JT is the defensive liability, but when he is not there, we are ten times worse. Even the other night, if the Roosters held the ball, we might have been in trouble, however, certain players stood up, like Mr Bowen... and the Roosters were forced to play pressure catch-up football.

 

[elyod138]

In 2005 I thought we looked really shaky and I didn't expect us to win a game in the finals, let alone make the GF.

I didn't have any hope that we would win the GF, I thought we were no chance.

If we beat the Roosters in '04 we were a good chance to go all the way IMO.