time for the hybrid game ?

ozbash · Jul 21, 2001

League sides deny code switch
19 July 2001

<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=450 border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td valign=top width=450> By Sports.com's MATTHEW BARBOUR
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</td> <td> Intertoto Cup: Villa and Newcastle
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</td> <td width=15></td></tr> <tr> <td width=150> RFL chairman Sir Rodney Walker still believes in rugby league<span> (Allsport)</span>
</td> <td width=15></td></tr></tbody></table> Within hours of suggestions that rugby league and rugby union could merge in the next few years, league officials have quickly dismissed any talk of even considering unification. Leicester chief executive Peter Wheeler caused the upset on Thursday when he claimed that unification talks with top Super League clubs were already underway. However spokesmen for Bradford, Wigan and St Helens all rubbished the comments, insisting their rugby league operations are in no way at risk. Wheeler has declined to name the clubs involved in the talks he described, but it is thought that Zurich Premiership franchises could be left open for the 2002-3 season to tempt the top league sides to make the switch. Leeds, which is in the rare position of running both codes side by side, is due to put out a team in the Premiership this year after last season's promotion, but chief executive Gary Hetherington is quite candid in his insistance that the codes can continue to survive separately. And while Wheeler is still unavailable for further comment, former team mate and league commentator Ray French has been quoted by the BBC as saying: "I think the outpourings of Peter Wheeler are so naive that I wonder whether there is a little bit of devilish deliberate intent to seek to undermine the confidence of the Rugby Football League. "I can't believe how someone can seriously suggest that major clubs like Wigan, St Helens, Leeds and Bradford can suddenly switch over to playing rugby union without recourse to hundreds of thousands of fans whose lifeblood is rugby league. "If Peter Wheeler seriously thinks that fans in those towns will suddenly start to watch rugby union, he's living in cloud-cuckoo land." However, doubt has been cast in Wheeler's favour due to the fact that league legends St Helens and Bradford Bulls are poised to follow Leeds' example of running a union side to increase club revenues. The Bulls have shared facilities with the Tigers in recent months, but say the relationship is aimed at the exchange of ideas and nothing more. Meanwhile, Bradford boss Abi Ekoku says his plans of launching a 15-man side does not mean he is preparing to switch. "We have been very open on this issue from the start," he said. "We are planning to occupy a new stadium from 2003 and, as part of our feasibility study, we need to look at a total use of the facility. "The prospect of having a core second user would make sense. The Bradford Bulls rugby union side as well as the Bradford Bulls rugby league side wouldn't be a bad option but it would be dependent upon a thorough research of our own market place. "But rugby league is our game and certainly there's been no in-depth talks with anybody." Mal Kaye, St Helens boss, said: "I've never spoken to Peter Wheeler on any matter regarding rugby and, as far as St Helens are concerned, we have no intention whatsoever of playing rugby union." RFL chairman Sir Rodney Walker discussed Wheeler's comments in Thursday's board meeting and issued the following statement: "We have noted the comments and it has been clear to those of us involved in rugby league for some time that rugby union had admired the success and quality of our game, so any interest is therefore not surprising. "However, we are looking forward to the publication of our strategic planning report in August which we believe will be the launch pad for a bright future for our game." "Rugby league has many inherent qualities and virtues which make it a strong vibrant sport enjoyed by many thousands of people throughout the UK at all levels. These qualities will ensure that the sport continues to prosper." was just watching a nz SANZAR rep on tele and he confirmed that the amalgamation of league and union clubs was well past the planning stage.he said it was going to happen sooner rather than later......</span></td></tr></tbody></table>

G@v · Jul 21, 2001

Why the hell would a League fan of Leeds, Bradford or St Helens want to waste his or her time watching an inferiorgame? If there was a market for Rugby Union in the north of England there would already be strong clubs in the Zurich Premiership. The fact is, the north is a Rugby Union desert.

imported_Roopy4246 · Jul 21, 2001

Union has now been professional for five or six years and they are doing as much as they can to move towards getting more 'appeal' for a viewing audience, especially an audience made up of new viewers who have no appreciation for the technical aspects of the game.
Each time the Union authorities 'tweak' the rules of the game, it moves more and more towards the style of play seen in Rugby League. The reason for this is because League is a game that has had its primary objective as entertainment for the viewing public for 90 years, while Union has spent the same period of time developing a game for the players. Both games started from the same base and took these divergent paths, but both are now attempting to fulfill the same role. In other words, in the past they diverged but now are converging. League is not becoming more like Union, but Union is inextricably becoming more like League. Union is adopting rules, coaches, styles of play and even players from League as quickly as they are able to do so.
Eventually I believe the games will come together, and the 'hybrid' game will look a lot more like League than it does Union. The reason for this is money, the game will develop to attract fans. Union is the bigger sport around the world at present on the back of a greater number of players, but where ever the two sports go head to head League is more popular with fans and this is because it has more crowd appeal.
League will be absorbed by the Union organisation, but we will still be playing League.

pepe · Jul 21, 2001

the afl plays the irish gealic football team at the end of each season,they have modified rules and play on a rectangular ground,imo it is a better game to watch than both those codes.

if the codes did merge,i guess it would be all us leaguies attending on a weekly basis and the union supporters only coming out for the internationals, it's a social event for them,great to catch up with there old private school mates and be seen.

Hass · Jul 21, 2001

While I want to see the two games seperate I've put some thought into how a hybrid game could work in the furture. Here's the outline.

*From within a team's own 40 they are allowed to Play the Ball (Rugby League Style). These tackles are unlimited.
*Once a team is outside their own 40 they must release the ball on hitting the ground and a Ruck should form Union style
*The ruck would be made more "retention friendly" as far as interperatationof the breakdown goes
*Any ball going over the sideline results in a "line-out", however it should be "thrown in" from 5m insidetouch.
*Anyerror should result in a scrum being packed downUnion style.
*If the ball becomes trapped at the breakdown theninstead of a scrum being packed down, the team in control should receive a simple play the ball to restart play.
*All breakdown penalties that are not professional fouls aredifferential penaltiesthat only allow a tap kick 10m down the ground.
*Teams do not have to contest a line-out after kicking a ball out on receiving a penalty
*All drop-outs must be taken from the goal-line.
*Marks only apply to the in-goal area.
*All Tries worth 5 points, all goals worth 2 points.

The main theory behind these rules is that teams should be able to run out from their own line (not kick to gain territory). However once they are over the 40m line they have achieved substanial territory and should not be given the luxury of playing the ball. The ensuing breakdown would see ball retention easier yet still difficult. These rules encourage attacking play and allows for a mix of Union and League rules without bastardising the game.

Cheers.

imported_legindyoll · Jul 22, 2001

I am amazed that the hybrid game has even been suggested. Why turn the `Beautiful` game into something that is bound to be inferior. No thanks I`d like to keep our League, tell the Union to stick it where the sun don`t shine.

Marcus · Jul 29, 2001

Roopy, the two codes will never merge. Union has just been getting stronger because of professionalism. The Super 12 in Australia has see RU gaining a lot of popularity. RU is more popular in VIC, SA, and WA than RL is. Union doesn't need League to survive, its the other way around. Union is played in more than 120 countries, and has a growing popularity world wide. Unions prime advantage is its international scene, which by no means can be matched by league. League's advantage is at the club level, which basically is in Australia and to a very lesser extent in Northern England.
RL people seem to think that if there was a hybrid game, it will look more like League. But thats were you are wrong. RL doesn't stack up against RU. In all honesty RL would convert to RU because RU has a stronger game. But in saying that, I wouldn't want to see that happen, both codes can operate in their own right.

Willow · Jul 29, 2001

Marcus:
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Even Rugby Union protagonists.
Offcourse, there is enough room for both codes.

You correctly say that Union doesn't need League to survive. I think history is showing that League, despite going through hell in recent times, doesn't need Union either.
Your assertion that League needs Union is a load of crap...(that's the technical term).

The hybrid proposal has been suggested before and I agree that it will never happen. But if it did, the game would resemble Rugby League. I say this because the Rugby Union has been been at pains to open up it's game and has even called it 'the running game' in past promotions.

I look forward to the day that RU supporters stop laying their paranoid boots into a game of Rugby League which has been in recovery mode for the last few seasons.
RL is proving itself to be one of the great survivers of popular footballing codes.

imported_Roopy4246 · Jul 29, 2001

Marcus,
Here is an exercise for both of us.
Let's take our petty self-interests and put them aside for a minute and consider what would be good for 'Rugby,' both League and Union.
We could fight to the death while soccer and AFL stand around cheering us on, or we could join together and be twice as strong as we are now.
League and Union have a hatred built up over close to 100 years to overcome, but the two games are closely related and becoming closer all the time. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world follow both codes and have played both codes.
We have more in common than we have dividing us.
League doesn't 'need' Union, and Union doesn't 'need' League. Both will survive and even grow without the other.
I have a fair bit to do with the American League message board, but I have been cautioned by the moderator to not indulge in Union v League rhetoric on that board, because the Americans view it as some sort of English/Australian madness for the two codes to be fighting as they do. A bit like the war in Gulliver's travels over which end of the egg you break.
I hate everything that Union stands for, all the exclusiveness and snobbery and racial hatred bound up in Union during my lifetime has soured my view of the game to the point where I find it very hard to contemplate actually following the game, but I am prepared to apply logic to this situation, rather than simply declare that we will fight till one game falls over and dies (which will never happen because both codes are actually growing.)
If there are 'enemies' in sport, our 'war' makes as much sence as the Irish 'troubles' where people kill each other over which way they choose to worship the same God, i.e. it makes no sence at all.
It's time for us as individual fans to think about what would make us like the other code and what we really can't accept about the other code. Union will have to change for me to like it, but I feel they are starting to make those changes. I have made it clear in other posts that I think Union is moving towards League in a big way, and I actually think this is the best thing that could happen for both codes. If League can find something good in Union I would definately support any moves by League to move more towards the 'centre' as well.
Think about where the 'war' is taking us, and remember that no one has ever 'won' a war, just beaten someone else.

Marcus · Jul 29, 2001

Roopy, both codes will never merge. People in the League heirarchy don't like Union, and people in the Union heirarchy don't like League. If they ever did merge all it will do is drive people away from the game. There is a lot of history and tradition in each code, if you mess around with it you will lose fans quickly. Just look at what the NRL has done. Clubs like Manly, Souths, Norths, Wests, Balmain, St George, Illawarra, all had history and tradition in them. What the NRL did to them was disgraceful. Forcing mergers and kicking Souths out drove many fans away from the game. They basically threw tradition and history in the bin, and showed no respect for the fans that followed those clubs. These disgruntled fans probably went to follow Union, AFL, or even soccer.

"two games are closely related and becoming closer all the time"

I still see rucks and mauls, lineouts, competitive scrums, keeping the ball alive, contest for possession, positional roles, kicking and a backline structure which are all unique to rugby. I know that RU has adopted RL's sliding defence, but in all fairness that is a defence tactic which has always been available but hardly ever applied. I don't think there has been any rule changes that resemble that found in league. There maybe, but I can't think of any. If you can do tell.

"I hate everything that Union stands for, all the exclusiveness and snobbery and racial hatred bound up in Union during my lifetime has soured my view of the game to the point where I find it very hard to contemplate actually following the game"

I'm sorry you feel that way. Your hatred for Union will always stop you from finding out how wrong you are. Rugby Union has a great tradition and it prides itself on that. The game use to be only played in private schools - as with the case in Australia. But now it is played in many public schools around Australia. If you look at your average Union supporter you will find not all of them are from rich backgrounds. To say Union stands for "exclusiveness", "snobbery", and "racial hatred" is far from the truth. Chris Latham and George Smith, both fine Wallabies went to public school. I don't know where you got the racial hatred thing, probably you are thinking about South Africa but that was in the days of aparteid. The Sprinkboks now have 5 "coloured" players in there squad, and there is even more "coloured" players playing in the Currie Cup. The situation there is improving.

RL in Australia has always viewed RU as the "enemy", which is pretty sad. RL even does it with AFL calling the game "arial ping-pong", and thus creating another enemy from a different code. RL annoys many other sports because they are always proclaiming that RL is "the greatest game of all". No sport deserves such a title. Not even soccer the No1 sport in the world calls itself the greatest game of all. Soccer is known as the "beautiful game", Rugby Union as the "game they play in heaven" but for a sport to say it is "the greatest game of all" is degrading the greatness that each sport in its own right possess.

Mate, I don't hate RL. I on occassion watch the Broncos play, and I can enjoy the game for what it is. There is always going to be people that are going to bag you for liking either League or Union. People will always point to the past for reasons to hate each others code. I personally think whats happened in the past should stay in the past, and we should not criticise people from liking a sport they love. RU players went to RL, and now some RL players are going to RU. Big deal! It all evens out in the end I guess.

G@v · Jul 29, 2001

Marcus, you presuppose that lineouts, rucks and mauls, competitive scrums are here to stay. I beg to differ! At least one of those elements will probably disappear from the Union game within a few years.

Never say never! 10 years ago, most fans in the UK would never have envisaged RL in the summertime.

We are living in an age of massive change, no-one can be sure how the society around us might change the face of any sport. The attitudes in 2020 will be far different from todays.

RL was treated as the enemy by those in Union, they tried to strangle the NSWRL at birth, so please don't pretend that it is all an illusion!

Willow · Jul 29, 2001

Well you gotta love the passion.
Marcus, is this one of those crusades where it's a case of 'my post is longer than yours?'
I mean, reading your stuff is actually quite a bit like watching a game of Rugby Union. Do you sell pies as well?

imported_Roopy4246 · Jul 29, 2001

Marcus,
Thanks for your responce. I found it a very good read.
Joining the codes together is never going to be an easy task. The dislike of other codes runs very deep in both camps.

The ravings of people like seven (I hope that's not you) on the rugby.com message board show very clearly that snobbery is alive and well in Rugby Union, and as for exclusiveness, I am related to an ex Wallaby player and I can tell you that most of his family are very particular who they talk to, and that means they very much look down their noses at my side of the family. Rugby Union and racism have been linked in my mind since the days I took part in protests against apartheid. The sport will probably never live that down. I watched some of the test match last night and there were more black people on the field than in the stands.

I still see rucks and mauls, lineouts, competitive scrums, keeping the ball alive, contest for possession, positional roles, kicking and a backline structure which are all unique to rugby. I know that RU has adopted RL's sliding defence, but in all fairness that is a defence tactic which has always been available but hardly ever applied. I don't think there has been any rule changes that resemble that found in league. There maybe, but I can't think of any. If you can do tell.

The first thing Union took from League was professionalism itself, and that has brought about profoundchanges in itself, all changes that make the sport more like League in such things as level of training and therefore skill and fitness.
In the years since thegame became professional it has become faster and the reliance on kicking is getting less and less every season. Backline play is becoming less 'positional' in favour of the line of attack and passing the ball along a line ala League. Straight line defence and straight line attack go together inevitably. The only Union I have watched this year was a few games involving the brumbies and the impression I was left with was that they were running the ball up to the line and almost taking a voluntary tackle before clearing the ball back as quickly as possible, thereby keeping the number of players involved in the maul to an absolute minimum. The effect appeared to be very similar to a League tackle, and the Brumbies were very keen to do this rather than kick except when they were very close to their own line. The impression I got from watching the Brumbies was that they were playing as close to League as is possible under Union rules, and this was a winning technique.
Rod McQueen used his final speech as Wallaby coach to call forrule changes to 'clean up' the breakdown area. As far as I can see that could only make it easier to retain possession through techniques such as those applied by the Brumbies, and that would mean more running the ball and therefore an even more 'League-like' appearance to the game.

These are the impressions I get from watching very occassional games of Union, but many people make these comments in the press and in conversation.

Marcus · Jul 29, 2001

GavBT, all those rules are here to stay. Although RU inEngland might go to a summer format and challenge ESL head on. In England RU competes with soccer for crowds, and the ESL???

G@v · Jul 29, 2001

I believe that if the two codes merge it will be due to the fact the Union will have changed enough by ex League people and the more enlightened elements within RU to make it more of a palatable game for most League fans. However, I also believe that certain entrenched unionists may seek a breakaway game they can call their own.

G@v · Jul 29, 2001

Believe what you wish Marcus.......unless you are some kind ofmagician, youwon't change the future!

Any sport competes with football, no matter what time of year it is.....there is virtually no break between one season and the next, the ESL still competes with soccer for a majority of it's season. How many people watch club RU below ZP1? Those clubs outside of the topdivision can't compete with the NFP RL clubs......they would struggle to match it with many RL national conference sides.

Marcus · Jul 29, 2001

GavBT, why merge when all the League talent is going to Union.

G@v · Jul 29, 2001

You mean the RFU are signing all 300 ESL players?

Come on Marcus.....RU couldn't afford 10% of that number! They could afford the transfer fee's perhaps, but not the spiralling salaries, that would ensue.

A handfull of players is a drop in the ocean of RL talent. Start worrying if that trickle becomes a flood, especially if coaches are switching too. I hope more do make that switch!

I stated about two months ago on another forum that League players and other personel switching to RU would eventually kill Union in all but name.

Hass · Jul 29, 2001

That's it. I've had enough and I'm not gonna take it any more!

This year I have watched every Parramatta match either via Foxtel (or Ch9) or at the Ground

This year I have watched every Warratahs match either via Foxtel or at the Ground

I have watched the State of Origin Series. I have watched the Lions Tour Matches.

I watched the Aussies v Kiwis in League. I watched the Aussies v Lions in Union.

I've barely missed an episode of NRL on Fox and I didn't go to bed until 3am this Sunday morning because I was watching the Tri-Nations.
<hr>

What can I say, I'm crazy for al things football. If I had to choose between an NRL Grand Final or a Rugby World Cup Final I'd choose the League GF- but I'd love to go to both.

I've just read the other thread (the one Marcus started), discussing League and Union. I'm sick of all the squabbling. I want to see both these games grow big, and the cheap shots are annoying me. I know everything about the history and the backroom politics that has divided these codes, but it doesn't stop me, I just love my footy.

If only more people stuck to loving footy, both codes might be more succesful.

Cheers.

Gasnier · Jul 29, 2001

Don't think about merging.We would be the tiny partner.The big fish always swallow little fish.Look at trouble we have with mergers between league clubs of roughly equal size and similar background. Union would swallow us without trace.We the supporter have been pushed into the background by interests we don't have anything in common with for the past few years. We think we have won with Souths but why did the heavies fight and then suddenly accept the court ruling. It is not consistent.Are they selling us to Union.
Don't talk merger. If Union buys our best then so be it. We did it to them for a long time.If we merge we will not have league.If we don't merge then we continue,even if small.We need to have somewhere to play our game. It looks bad in England and NZ. We must survive in Australia.

time for the hybrid game ?

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