Tonga v Samoa teams for Oct 7

[taipan]

I have never heard of a sport being killed off by the injection of huge amounts of money. Even cricket seemed to survive the Packer revolution.

Growth from a small base is easy, wouldn't you say?

The NRL is the biggest impediment to the growth of international league at the top level, plus the fact that there doesn't appear to be a legitimate, credible, international body in charge of the international game.



The Sydney and Brisbane club competitions are a helluva lot stronger now than they were before the game went professional.

So there is a former Wallaby who made lots of money out of the game. Did he make it by playing for Australia, or in Australia? Of course not. That is the point that I made...rugby union was genuinely amateur in Australia, while it was professional, either in cash or in kind, in all the other major countries playing the game.



Taipan, players who are good enough to earn an income from professional sport have a tendency to go where the money is the best. The money was better in rugby union in France, so the better players tended to gravitate towards rugby union. That is what happened.

As for the Vichy government, I have never denied that they confiscated the assets of rugby league, or whatever else is alleged. I have simply pointed out that this did not seem to affect the ability for France to turn out a succession of brilliant international league sides during the fifties.

De Gaulle came into power in 1961, a long time after the Vichy Government. And whatever he did, more than forty years have elapsed since then. More than enough time for any sport to make its mark.

After all, according to you, the Super League war "would have killed off any other code". And yet league in Australia is booming only a few years later?

What is the difference between here and France? Money, that's what. There is a lot more money for league here, than there is or ever has been for league in France.



Not only have I heard of PNG, I have worked there as a consultant to the PNG government. The country is a social, political, and economic basket-case. Australian aid money is going to be used to help support rugby league there, and a good thing too.

Mate, take a look back at what I said. I said that the only major country in which league is more important than rugby union is Australia. I did not say that rugby league is not played in major countries.

And, coincidentally, Australia is the only major country in which rugby union was genuinely amateur. Not only that, but league actually had far more money than it does in virtually all other market-places ( some Pommies claim that league has lots of money there, but rugby union has always had more).

The simple point is, that league is more popular here primarily because it has always been semi-professional at least, while rugby union was amateur until very recently. Hard to escape that conclusion, wouldn't you say? If there were other reasons, why don't they apply elsewhere that the two codes have been played in a serious way?



Professional tennis players were not allowed to play in the big tournaments until tennis went professional. What is the difference? Rugby union players were not allowed to play rugby league, because it was professional. As to the derision you talk about, I see plenty of that from league supporters towards the rah rahs too.

You must be doing the ostrich trick,the SL war which involved a huge injection of money nearly killed off the game in Oz.Check the people who switched codes at the time when the game was divided,potential sponsors walked ,as did many long time supporters.If it had remained divided some of the hard core supporters would have held true,but thats all.The only reason league survived was they came together plain and simple.
Ken Arthurson who I have a fair amount of respect as to his committment ,thought the game would wither and idie if the split continued and he wasnt the only one.
Mate the money in France during the early forties prior to Vichy was also in the hands of the rugby league,and the code had overtaken union for popularity.They had 300,000 francs in the bank FFS.League was more than competing with union,and in 1946 when the assets were handed over to rugby union,plus the fact that the govt only recognised repeat recognised one code of rugby -union this had an adverse effect on rugby league on the matter of govt grants,development and players .To say otherwise is plain blinkered thinking.It was the latter part of the 20th century before the govt even acknowledged them as rugby league-prior to that they were called a "game of X111 for heaven's sake.you cant get funds if the govt doesnt recognise you.Even today union clubs do their best to prevent league matches taking place on council grounds.
it still doesnt seem to get through to you that rugby league had plenty of money prior to vichy and had the lot taken.
Growth from a small base may be easy,it depends of course on "obstacles" that are deliberately put in the way.
This major country jazz :roll: Sth africa,France,GB and NZ and Australia-the biggest code in NZ thats all.When you have taken over USA,Germany,Italy,Russia,China and Japan get back to me.
Intnl RL development was moving ahead prior to the SL war,the ARL had $15m in the coffers.The Pacific islands were being targetted Fiji in particular.
If the sydney and brisbane union clubs are stronger now than they have ever been,the diminishing crowds suggest otherwise.You cant fool the public.from waht i have seen on the odd occasion,the standard is bearable.
I dont have to work in NZ as an adviser,i am fully aware of the country's predicament.Suffice to say yes Oz govt money is going there,and private backing for teams is also being injected.
The former Wallaby made money so he wouldnt switch to league,whilst he was playing the game for his country in Australia.Obviously you also have never heard of boot money in rugby union,a club on then Nth Shore had a reputation for this.
Even in the days of Messenger in union,money was available on occasions for union players .This holier than thou rubbish is just so laughable.
Hard to escape what conclusion here? rugby league is more popular in oz because for a fair swag of the population it is more exciting to watch either on TV or live.I was brought up on union,and I found this so shoot me.
After the RUWC of 2003 rugby union was according to officialdom to swamp rugby league in Oz.What happens league since then has had booming crowd increases,booming junior participation increases and booming TV contracts and sponsorships.In the UK the same thing was to happen rugby league in London is the fastest growing participation sport with juniors,and ESL crowds are at record levels.
Apparently the NZ Herald had rugby league all over its back page last week,including test posters around auckland.the rugby union final NPC in the rah rah mad country was relegated to a minor display on the inside pages.Oh and BTW NZRL doesnt have much money
As to derision I am talking about union hypocritically deriding league players for taking money,not deriding a code because of the nature of the game.There is a difference.

 

[Polynesian Warrior]

Brisbane club rugby didn't have S12 , Wallabies matches and its rep players playing somewhere else during the club season .
The same thing is also to blame for low numbers in Auckland league and union club championship .
I was told that Quuensland cup numbers was also down since the Broncos enter the NRL .

The NZ Herald had its share of NPC coverage and you can bet which team is going to be relegated to minor display on the inside pages now that both national teams are heading to the UK .

 

[taipan]

Brisbane club rugby didn't have S12 , Wallabies matches and its rep players playing somewhere else during the club season .
The same thing is also to blame for low numbers in Auckland league and union club championship .
I was told that Quuensland cup numbers was also down since the Broncos enter the NRL .

The NZ Herald had its share of NPC coverage and you can bet which team is going to be relegated to minor display on the inside pages now that both national teams are heading to the UK .

Agree then for someone like Woods 99 ,to say that club union is stronger now is plain rubbish.The numbers have since picked up in league for the Qld cup and 2nd div clubs in Sydney.
I am fully aware that the ABS will take pride of place in the NZ papers and league will be tucked away,its not rocket science.(It is after all apart from Wales and the PI the only countries with union as its biggest sport .
It would be interesting to see the NZ publicity if NZ won the league tri series.

 

[Polynesian Warrior]

Taipan I go and watch QLD cups games every week when they are on and when Im there alot of the old blokes tell me that the crowds are strinking every year compare to haydays before the Broncos join the NRL .

And as for the Kiwi's making the backpages of the NZ hearald ! The Kiwi league team have made the backpages of the NZ herald as far back as the 70s and still do .
Its not like making the backpages of a newspaper in NZ is a great deal anyway .
There was a story about softball in the back pages a month ago . I guess softball will soon take off in NZ then aye ?

 

[taipan]

Taipan I go and watch QLD cups games every week when they are on and when Im there alot of the old blokes tell me that the crowds are strinking every year compare to haydays before the Broncos join the NRL .

And as for the Kiwi's making the backpages of the NZ hearald ! The Kiwi league team have made the backpages of the NZ herald as far back as the 70s and still do .
Its not like making the backpages of a newspaper in NZ is a great deal anyway .
There was a story about softball in the back pages a month ago . I guess softball will soon take off in NZ then aye ?

Mate that is stating the obvious before the Broncos,before the Knights all local club comps were having stronger crowds.The point is certainly in Sydney the standards of the lower grade comps has improved,and the crowds in the Jim beam cup accordingly.For anyone to say club union has got stronger and the standards improved is having a lend of themselves.Immediately Wally Lewis left valleys,Meninga from Souths,and Miles,the standard dropped and the crowds,and the same will happen on the Gold Coast in the short term.
You obviously dont know that any publicity is good publicity,and getting on the back page,middle page of any newspaper especially where the code is not no1 is good PR for the game.I guess any sport would like to be on the back page ,than not at all sheesh.There are many sports who would kill to be noticed on the back page of a major newspaper,to say otherwise is pure crap.
Who said anything about league taking off in NZ mate you are so defensive about your code.All I stated was league got a good spread in the Herald so much for a code nobody cares about as we are often reminded by certain people. I know softball is popular in NZ ,my daughter played the game in Oz,and a couple of the best players were NZedders.

 

[Polynesian Warrior]

The numbers have since picked up in league for the Qld cup and 2nd div clubs in Sydney.


I don't live in Sydney so wouldn't know but I live in Brisbane and some of the QLD cups games I've seen had the same crowds as the Brisbane priemier union comp .


I just made a point that league has its share of been in the back pages since the 70's like netball, softball, soccer and yatching in the herald .
Its not a big deal in NZ mate because nobody are as paranoid as other countries between the codes .
It doesn't matter if youre on the back pages or middle as long as there is coverage .
Popularity is not a a priority among the league fans in NZ and there's deffently no us against them .

Nobody cares about alot of sports in NZ Taipan . But it doesn't stop the NZ Herald from publishing them in the backpages .

 

[Thomas]

Yeah PW, I've been to a few matches at Easts this year and the crowds are about the same size as those at Sunnybank, my local RU club.

 

[taipan]

Funny when NZRL gets publicity for a test such as a back page ,they seem to be happy, just listening to the "Mad Butcher" when he has been on sydney radio sure as hell says so.Ditto Selwyn Pearson.Mate every sport likes to be in print.Steve Mascord the league journo has stated that the back page is "THE page for sporting news.Popularity is not a concern for league fans,what they couldnt care if 300 people went to watch a league test.:shock: It is sure as hell a concern for administrators.
They are not as paranoid in NZ ? ,when I visited Auckland a few years back I was given a tour by a relo in law of the city,and Eden Park was pointed out to me the comment"this is where the real rugby is played not that 2nd rate stuff".Welcome to NZ.Never heard of Spiro Zavos the NZ born journalist who haunts the Sydney Morning Herald a union fanatic who bags league whenever he can.Union is by far the biggest code in NZ,and most people dont have to bag other codes,yet you still get them.
Burleigh Bears seems to get decent crowds.
Crowds at University,West Harbour,Penrith and southern suburbs in Sydney are abysmal,and the standard has dropped dramatically.

 

[Palms]

Let me first say I'm a massive league fan and has been my favourite code since day 1. I play union for Eastwood in the premiere sydney comp and crowds at these games are appauling. If officials believe making a grade bridging from 1st grade to super 12 is going to help union in the future they are sadly mistaken. Rugby cannot survive without support from fans, and at the moment are solely living of the 2003 world cup still. Once money runs out from the ARU, then where..??

 

[Woods99]

Let me first say I'm a massive league fan and has been my favourite code since day 1. I play union for Eastwood in the premiere sydney comp and crowds at these games are appauling. If officials believe making a grade bridging from 1st grade to super 12 is going to help union in the future they are sadly mistaken. Rugby cannot survive without support from fans, and at the moment are solely living of the 2003 world cup still. Once money runs out from the ARU, then where..??

Palms,

I also played for Eastwood, back in the days when rugby union was totally amateur in Australia. The game survived during those days, with no sponsorship, no tv revenues, poor crowds at club games, and even poor crowds at international games.

Now the ARU receives very significant revenues from sponsorships and the SANZAAR deal for television, and have a look at the attendances for Super 12 and International matches.

The money that the ARU got from hosting the World Cup has not been spent, it has been invested, and the income from the capital is being used to develop the game.

If you are so worried about rugby union's future, and really like league, why don't you go and play for Ryde-Eastwood, or some similar league team?

 

[Palms]

Cause i've played union for Eastwood since I was 14 and am now 21..League for 6 yrs before that..Mate I'm not saying I think union is dying or has not produced talent or still isn't. but back in the day union was not as professional and didn't pay players so therefor club level did not need as much backing..

 

[Palms]

Super 12 and international level is thriving, club level needs more hype and intensity if it is to attract other juniors to play the code..hope u understand my point!

 

[Big Bunny]

Palms,

I also played for Eastwood, back in the days when rugby union was totally amateur in Australia.

Good one! :lol:

 

[Polynesian Warrior]

Funny when NZRL gets publicity for a test such as a back page ,they seem to be happy, just listening to the "Mad Butcher" when he has been on sydney radio sure as hell says so.Ditto Selwyn Pearson.Mate every sport likes to be in print.Steve Mascord the league journo has stated that the back page is "THE page for sporting news.Popularity is not a concern for league fans,what they couldnt care if 300 people went to watch a league test.:shock: It is sure as hell a concern for administrators.
They are not as paranoid in NZ ? ,when I visited Auckland a few years back I was given a tour by a relo in law of the city,and Eden Park was pointed out to me the comment"this is where the real rugby is played not that 2nd rate stuff".Welcome to NZ.Never heard of Spiro Zavos the NZ born journalist who haunts the Sydney Morning Herald a union fanatic who bags league whenever he can.Union is by far the biggest code in NZ,and most people dont have to bag other codes,yet you still get them.
Burleigh Bears seems to get decent crowds.
Crowds at University,West Harbour,Penrith and southern suburbs in Sydney are abysmal,and the standard has dropped dramatically.

So now its the mad butcher, steve mascord and your inlaws to the rescue ?
Spiros Zavos writes for the Sydney morning herald doesn't he ?

The last two years as been Burleigh Bears year mate and like Sunnybank in union the fans have turn up in large numbers to watch them .

Once again ! Im not surprise if the Sydney rugby union clubs crowds have fallen dramatically since the introduction of Super 12 .

 

[Palms]

I dont think they have dropped significantly, Just stayed very consistant and have not grown..lack of publicity, media coverage etc seriously doesnt help

 

[taipan]

So now its the mad butcher, steve mascord and your inlaws to the rescue ?
Spiros Zavos writes for the Sydney morning herald doesn't he ?

The last two years as been Burleigh Bears year mate and like Sunnybank in union the fans have turn up in large numbers to watch them .

Once again ! Im not surprise if the Sydney rugby union clubs crowds have fallen dramatically since the introduction of Super 12 .

Funny man, I dont need anyone to the rescue,you stated that NZedders dont have paranoia to other sports,I say they do,the majority dont,but some do.Cant be any clearer than that.Spiros Zavos writes for the SMH and he is a NZedder,not a Tibetan.Get the drift ?
You have just confirmed my views on Burleigh thanks mate.

 

[Woods99]

Super 12 and international level is thriving, club level needs more hype and intensity if it is to attract other juniors to play the code..hope u understand my point!

Palms,

You are absolutely right about the club level needing more hype, and a better competition. Club attendances have been poor since the year dot, and they really should be better. I have watched some club games over the past three or four years which have been really good games of rugby.

The ABC tv coverage is one big problem, as is the standard of the playing surfaces for most of the clubs.

Everybody agrees that a national competition is the answer, the money is there for it, but it might take a little while yet. One big problem is that the timing of our season is now based on New Zealand wanting to run their National competition late in the year.

It would make much more sense for us all if National competitions started when the Super 14 starts, followed by the Test series, with the Super 14 interspersed.

This will happen, the NPC is slowly losing its appeal compared to the Super 14. My guess is that the next SAANZAR contract will be based on National competitions, followed by a Super 15 and Test series.

My name here is based on 1999, the year my wife and I were married, and of course the year that the Woodies finally won a first grade premiership.

 

[Te Kaha]

This will happen, the NPC is slowly losing its appeal compared to the Super 14. My guess is that the next SAANZAR contract will be based on National competitions, followed by a Super 15 and Test series.

Well you would be wrong. SA will not be in the next Super 12/14... They may stay for the Tri-series but that will be it. There will be a super 10/11 with Six NZ teams. North harbour and northland will be the 6th team and five from Aussie. melbourne will be added. There may be a PI or japan team but that will be it.

Australia has no market for domestic rugby. A national club comp will not earn enough money to pay its players. Without NZ Aussie will be stuffed.

 

[Green Machine]

Well you would be wrong. SA will not be in the next Super 12/14... They may stay for the Tri-series but that will be it. There will be a super 10/11 with Six NZ teams. North harbour and northland will be the 6th team and five from Aussie. melbourne will be added. There may be a PI or japan team but that will be it.

Australia has no market for domestic rugby. A national club comp will not earn enough money to pay its players. Without NZ Aussie will be stuffed.

Houston, I think we have problem!
Go on Woods, give it to him. Tell him how wrong he is!
This post is a total disregard for party unity!

 

[Green Machine]

The ABC tv coverage is one big problem, as is the standard of the playing surfaces for most of the clubs.

I think you have typed that out wrong, Woods. Didn’t you mean to say:

“The ABC tv coverage is one big problem, as it exposes the standard of the players?”